New Fold Space seems somewhat weak

[ATalsen]

I’ve been playing with 2 of my characters running various Task Forces, radio missions, and other pickup group arcs (both just recently hit 50, so not really any incarnate content if that matters) testing out the use of Fold Space. For reference one is an Energy Blast Sentinel and the other is a Broadsword Brute.

 

In most content it seems like I’m not grabbing more than about 5 opponents; in general content there are obstacles that I think cut down on LOS significantly (and since Fold Space is LOS only, that cuts into what can be targeted). Running something like ITF which its wide open spaces and plentiful opponent mobs in the same area, I get more, certainly.

So I have been feeling that Fold Space is kind of weak.

Its *better than nothing* for sure, so I’m keeping it on the 2 characters I’ve got it on.

I had not, until recently, seen gravity control, and its ability to ‘condense’ mobs – on top of one another, into small spaces, etc. – and I was floored at how powerful that was. No comparison with Fold Space, just crazy good.

 

Now, that’s as it should be for a main power pick vs a pool power, but I do think there’s room to improve Fold Space in some way. I’d love to not have LOS restriction on it, as I think that would open its use more in ‘non-flatland’ content, and with only 100ft I still don’t see it being likely to pull from other rooms.

 

Its info says it prioritizes closest targets, which is probably standard coded mechanics for AoE power caps, but maybe it could prioritize farthest first, so that if you are already close to a bunch, you can pull more in on top of them? (too powerful an ability?)

 

 

Anyone else feel the same or different? Is there some trick to using it other than trying to best center yourself among mobs you want to pull in?

[aethereal]

Lack of LOS would have some pretty potentially unpleasant surprises in things like office maps -- you might pull a spawn that was through a wall and you didn't even know about.

[Pzn]

5 hours ago, ATalsen said:

Is there some trick to using it other than trying to best center yourself among mobs you want to pull in?

I've noticed it's a lot more useful as a mob condenser after the initial packed group is thinned out.  Just think of it as a big 100 ft bubble that grabs 16 things and try to kill the things not worth TPing before you hit it.  Works really great after a judgement nuke to clean up.  On tankers it gets the +50% radius from gauntlet which makes a huge difference in size.  Or you can use it pre-emptively by running ahead of the team and preparing the next group of enemies for an AoE barrage.  You just have to know the best place to put yourself so that you always have 16 targets within 100 ft of you.  It can be impossible on some indoor maps but I've found a quick hop lets you grab a lot of things you would miss otherwise.

[oedipus_tex]

I was initially concerned Fold Space might be too powerful for a pool power, but after using it for a while I think it's in a great place. It's not an every-build power, but it is a game changer for some characters. Builds where it shines most are the ones that have a buff or debuff that affects a tightly packed area:

• Drain Psyche 
• Power Sink 
• Fulcrum Shift 
• Soul Drain 

[Myrmidon]

And here I am about to start a religion based on Fold Space.

 

 

Too weak?

[oedipus_tex]

7 hours ago, josh1622 said:

 On tankers it gets the +50% radius from gauntlet which makes a huge difference in size.

 

 

Really?

 

That's a super creative way to differentiate Tankers from other archetypes. I knew about the size of AoEs being increased for them, but for some reason didn't think it would apply to powers like this. I really love that if it's the case. Would love to see more differentiators between the various classes and that's a brilliant way to do it. 

[Pzn]

11 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Really?

 

That's a super creative way to differentiate Tankers from other archetypes. I knew about the size of AoEs being increased for them, but for some reason didn't think it would apply to powers like this. I really love that if it's the case. Would love to see more differentiators between the various classes and that's a brilliant way to do it. 

Yes.  All the power pool and epic pool powers that I've tested get the radius increase.  Even tanker primary powers like invincibility or grant cover get the radius buff.

[oedipus_tex]

8 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

Yes.  All the power pool and epic pool powers that I've tested get the radius increase.  Even tanker primary powers like invincibility or grant cover get the radius buff.

 

 

That's very cool. Another sign that this development team is top notch.

[Myrmidon]

On 12/10/2020 at 12:25 AM, josh1622 said:

Yes.  All the power pool and epic pool powers that I've tested get the radius increase.  Even tanker primary powers like invincibility or grant cover get the radius buff.

Also, they proc Gauntlet, which comes in handy.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Myrmidon

[macskull]

23 hours ago, ATalsen said:

In most content it seems like I’m not grabbing more than about 5 opponents; in general content there are obstacles that I think cut down on LOS significantly (and since Fold Space is LOS only, that cuts into what can be targeted).

This is because the game has plenty of things in weird places that are supposed to be in weird places and Fold Space not requiring LoS would break all sorts of things unless all those things were given teleport protection (so basically it's easier to make Fold Space require LoS).

[pwntoon]

It's likely a combination of a line-of-sight problem, and a teleport magnitude problem. You can't get bosses more than +2 your level. There's a year old petition to change it at here. Jimmy talks about it a little in the teleport feedback thread here. Now that Fold Space is live, players are going to run into this problem and chock it up to opponents being out of range or missing, but really the foe teleport simply can't work on higher level opponents.

[Tikiera]

11 hours ago, pwntoon said:

It's likely a combination of a line-of-sight problem, and a teleport magnitude problem. You can't get bosses more than +2 your level. There's a year old petition to change it at here. Jimmy talks about it a little in the teleport feedback thread here. Now that Fold Space is live, players are going to run into this problem and chock it up to opponents being out of range or missing, but really the foe teleport simply can't work on higher level opponents.

I can see this being a component of why I was not pulling as many as I was expecting, I do tend to play at +2 to +4 on teams.

 

Do we know if Incarnate Alpha level shift helps with this? Say if I play in the 45+ range and am only running in a +3 team, will that allow me to avoid the magnitude issue on all opponents?

 

 

I see from the other replies that there are some other technical or undesirable effects of making it not LOS, which seems reasonable. Sounds like if the magnitude issue ever gets fixes this might just pop to where it feels 'right' to me. I'll still have to deal with positioning and obstacles but having it work more often in the content I do play when I do position right would be very much desirable.

 

Thanks all for the replies and info.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Tikiera

[aethereal]

4 minutes ago, Tikiera said:

I can see this being a component of why I was not pulling as many as I was expecting, I do tend to play at +2 to +4 on teams.

 

Do we know if Incarnate Alpha level shift helps with this? Say if I play in the 45+ range and am only running in a +3 team, will that allow me to avoid the magnitude issue on all opponents?

Incarnate alpha shift does help.  But remember that if you set your difficulty to +3, you see a mix of +3 and +4 opponents.  So with an alpha shift, that would be a mix of +2 and +3 opponents, and you would be able to pull half the bosses, roughly.

 

(I think that the tendency of some people to play at 50/+4 makes them not to remember this, because there are no level 55 opponents, so they don't see it.  But if you play at +4 on level 49 or lower, you will see a mix of +4 and +5 opponents!)

Edited December 11, 2020 by aethereal

[Andreah]

I happen to ABSOLUTELY LOVE Fold Space on my tanker. I built this character to use it (and to a lesser extent Combat Teleport, and even Teleport Target) and have spent some time thinking about how it works. 

 

I think it's in a good spot. It's not utterly overpowered, which if it hit too many enemies, or teleported high level/leader mobs easily, it would be.  It requires line of sight, so you can't teleport them through walls. It generates a lot of aggro, and is useful for that, but also dangerous on account of that. It has range, and can un-knockback after powerful knockback occurs, making Knockback easier for teams to work with. It -can- boost up in power nicely under very limited circumstances, but these are going to be rare. It does not take set IO's, and has a long recharge cycle. It causes no damage and has no mezz with it, and I don't think it even interrupts mob powers in animation (still watching that to be certain.)

 

This is a tactically very powerful tool, but one with limitations that keep it from being over the top.

 

In the mean time, I recommend other Fold Spacers slot it for accuracy, and then also for recharge, and don't expect it to teleport +4 bosses around willy-nilly. It will gather up minions it hits, and Lts if they're not too far above your level, if you have the accuracy to hit them. Also, look at your insp tray, and pop a medium or large insight right before using it.

 

[ninja surprise]

On 12/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, aethereal said:

Lack of LOS would have some pretty potentially unpleasant surprises in things like office maps -- you might pull a spawn that was through a wall and you didn't even know about.

But how would you target them to begin with?

[Pzn]

On 12/11/2020 at 5:16 PM, Andreah said:

don't expect it to teleport +4 bosses around willy-nilly

You can pop an ultimate insp at level 50 so that you can teleport level 54 bosses and some EBs.  Since that puts you a +2 difference along with level shift.  It's really fun on a mothership raid.

[Andreah]

9 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

You can pop an ultimate insp at level 50 so that you can teleport level 54 bosses and some EBs.  Since that puts you a +2 difference along with level shift.  It's really fun on a mothership raid.

That's what I was taking some pains not to tell everyone. 😃

 

It's expensive (typical price is ~1Million in the AH), and only lasts for a short time (two minutes? Enough for two or three Fold Spaces unless you have a lot of recharge). But it works, and is awesome.  Giant monsters apparently cannot be teleported, so Ukon'Grai is not affected, but all those Rikti battle suits and boss yadas take a quick trip to the rikti-grinder in the bowl.

 

It's also useful in some specific task force situations. I have yet to try it against level shifted bosses and EB's in iTrials. And I assume purple triangles also apply to AV teleport resistance.

 

And finally, this Ultimate technique also applis to Gravity's Wormhole power, which makes it extra awesome, too.

[aethereal]

22 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

But how would you target them to begin with?

Fold space is a pbaoe, isn't it?  I thought it worked on everyone in a radius, within los, until it hits its target cap.

 

EDIT:  I looked it up in the patch notes, and that's certainly what the patch notes say it does, quite explicitly.

Edited December 13, 2020 by aethereal

[ninja surprise]

13 hours ago, aethereal said:

Fold space is a pbaoe, isn't it?  I thought it worked on everyone in a radius, within los, until it hits its target cap.

 

EDIT:  I looked it up in the patch notes, and that's certainly what the patch notes say it does, quite explicitly.

How does it work? Is it like shield charge or TP Self where you activate it and choose a destination, and all the mobs around you go to the destination?

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

How does it work? Is it like shield charge or TP Self where you activate it and choose a destination, and all the mobs around you go to the destination?

No, they come to you.  There is no targeting.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

How does it work? Is it like shield charge or TP Self where you activate it and choose a destination, and all the mobs around you go to the destination?

 

Fold Space is a 100ft radius sphere, similar to (but much bigger than) EM Pulse, Glacier, Inferno, or Nova. Instead doing damage or mezz, it applies a Teleport. The caster doesn't select a location; enemies are teleported to the spot s/he occupied the moment the power started activation.

 

Summoning a large number of enemies to a single spot results in their hitboxes overlapping, so if you do this to a big enough group, they typically form a line.

[pwntoon]

If Fold Space becomes a standard part of peoples' builds, then naturally Ultimate inspirations will become a highly sought after item. It's the only way to make the power viable at end game.

 

And at lower levels (read: anything below 50+1), the power is Brawl tier, particularly if you're sidekicked up. Anything at +1 difficulty, you start seeing bosses at +2/3 your level. If you run a +4 ITF, for example, as a 49, you'll auto-miss the lieuts too lol.

Edited December 15, 2020 by pwntoon

[Riverdusk]

Seems to be in a good spot already to me.  Any more buffed and I think it'd step on wormhole's toes too much. 

 

If anything it is a bit of an issue to me that you can get fold space at level 14 and have to wait for level 26 for wormhole.  Have always thought it'd be nice to see wormhole and dimension shift swapped so gravity can pick wormhole up at level 12 instead.  Now that fold space is something anyone can grab at level 14 just reinforces that. 

[CraterLabs]

So, I've got a couple dedicated Teleport characters (basically people I wanna treat as "teleporters" the way properties like "The Flash" handles things like "speedsters") and I was kind of disappointed in Fold Space. Especially for my Gravity dominator.

 

I can certainly *imagine* scenarios where it might arguably be more to my benefit to use Fold Space instead of Wormhole. I have yet to encounter any where it actually helped more, though. Generally it's always the inferior choice. Ideally, I would like Fold Space to be "tactically different" than Wormhole, *or* provide a different benefit. Lord Recluse noted, in the original CoV installation manual, that as you level up your powers don't really get "more powerful" per se so much as they get "more complicated" or "more specific", and I think that's the sort of thing I'd like to see from it. Maybe not something as good as Wormhole's Teleport + Specified Exit + Stunned + Knockback effect, but probably something a little more than "A group shows up in melee range FIGHT".

 

For what it's worth, I actually think the power's design is nice. For a person who didn't already have Gravity, this would give me a taste of some of that power's playspace. And "Bring that group of enemies over to where I can punch them!" is actually a really nice tactical option for general damage-dealer characters who focus on melee, especially for things like clearing a room before fighting a big boss. So, thanks design team! It's really clever and fills a playspace that I'm sure some people need. ...but my teleporter characters hunger for more. More! 😛

[ATalsen]

On 12/13/2020 at 11:39 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Summoning a large number of enemies to a single spot results in their hitboxes overlapping, so if you do this to a big enough group, they typically form a line.

I've noticed that groups form a line too, and do not really gather around my toon.

 

 

Maybe the devs could change this behavior in some way? It would be nice if opponents you managed to pull grouped around you instead of forming a line away from you.

 

I played ITF twice at +2 and seemed to get different results as far as what I was able to pull. The first time I couldn't pull/teleport anyone, the second time I pulled/teleported solid groups of opponents. Same toon, had alpha slotted same both times. Any thoughts on what might have been different? the 'number of opponents setting (x1 to x8) should not matter, right?

 

If an opponent is out of the teleport's league (boss, AV, level too high, etc), does it still count against the powers use cap?