Most Unstoppable Tank

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

The crux of your argument is basically 'Tanks can't stealth because that isn't their job'.  

No, you are missing everything I said - effeciency was brought up,

 

I'm saying tankers don't have to stealth anything they can hit run through it all unscathed just as effeciently - and don't need the stealth portion.

 

4 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Every bit of evidence you've presented regarding perception applies to every other AT. 

Threat rating is a thing though that allows other ATs to not aggro the group as quickly - that is why stalkers work best at this - lower starting threat rating - also easier to lose agro.

 

Go read any description or guide on the function or role of a tanker - what people think it is - what it is defined as.

 

I'm not saying you absolutely can not stealth on tankers - it's your account it's not wrong any way you choose to play any thing.

 

But

 

That still won't change what I am telling you that a tankers role is to

1. Grab and maintain agro

2. Survive it

3. Dish out damage.

 

That's not saying you can't build it any way you want to or play it any way you want to.   

 

lol. I'm not the bad guy here.  Don't get mad at facts though.  Game mechanics makes certain things more suited for certain tasks - efficiency was brought up and if you really want to stealth a map - that's what a stalker and certain other veats do way better.

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

There is a first for everything, but I don't even think it matters what you think the role of a tanker is.  This isn't a role-related issue.  Sometimes tankers are solo.  Sometimes tankers are teamed with all other tankers.  There are a lot of times when roles lose meaning in this game. This isn't about roles.  It's about stealth being a reasonable addition to any AT, including tankers.  Every power doesn't have to further a role in a set, some can be luxuries, some can be for fun.  I feel like we've tread this ground before but I guess we'll go there again.

 

Is stealth also not in the Blaster role?  What about controller role?  Kheldian?  Brute?  Scrapper?  It doesn't matter, they can all get stealth and use it beneficially.  There are many ways to stack stealth radius as well, so that issue is easily solved.  And you can also build your tanker to be defensively difficult to hit, and still use stealth when that isn't necessary.  Both options can be used at the same time.  YOU CAN BE RIGHT TOO!  I can agree with you!  Imagine this, I'm the tough tanky tanker haha!  I'm also the stealthy stealth tanker that can click that glowy without a streakbreaker hit from the mob that followed me in when I don't use stealth, because I used stealth instead, and now my team that doesn't want to clear the map can take a sigh of relief and move on to the next mission.  Saved the day and we're both right, I could have tried to click that glowy with a mob of enemies shooting at me, but I didn't have to, I saved time because that streakbreaker never interrupted me this time around!  Next time though, when I stealth in and click the glowy, oh no!  The mob saw me!  they're shooting me!  But I'm also a tanky tough tanker, and I can dodge almost every hit so eventually, even with the odd streakbreaker, I can click that glowy and save the day again!

 

I'm not saying you can't play your way and be correct.  I'm saying both ways are correct.  You're saying my way isn't correct.  The only things I said you were wrong about, if you read them, were your topics of conversation, the angles you are trying to push, and specifically your stuff about stealth radius that isn't what I'm arguing, I concede that stealth radius is a thing that is a game mechanic, I've conceded it before, get over it please and address the rest of the argument, the fact that stealth radius exists does not change the fact that stealth is a useful tool to have that can increase your efficiency, regardless of AT or role.

 

Again, I conceded stealth radius is a thing, and asserted that it isn't relevant.  Yes you have hard facts to back up that stealth radius is a thing.  We all know!  This isn't any gotcha topic, we know.  It doesn't further the conversation though, it just states what we all know.  Just for the record, I concede stealth radius is a thing!  You can be seen!  GASP!  Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

 

 

1. I never said take any stealth power away from any tanker. - I said take that component out from EA which there is precedent for that move already.

 

2. I never said your way of playing was wrong.  Play it however you want as long as you are having fun that's all that matters.

 

3. Once you interact with a glowie all your stealth is suppressed stalker, tanker - anything - streakbreaker doesn't matter, if you are near enough they will aggro hard on you as a tanker if you do this.

 

4. You keep saying efficiency - again not telling you you can't do what you want - just drawing a comparison.

 

What's more efficient accomplishing the same task in the same amount of time utilizing less tools, or more tools?

 

There are defined - factual roles in the game along with well established and supported styles that best interact with those roles.

 

That's not saying you can't deviate or ignore it completely, but efficiency keeps getting brought up.

 

And I will leave it there.

 

Again I want to make it perfectly clear your playstyle isn't wrong.

[Haijinx]

I'm in favor of just porting the Brute EA to Tankers at Tanker Scale. 

 

Its been stated that won't happen, by you know, homecoming's powers guy.   Because defense is too high.

 

So the removal of the stealth power was just an idea to reduce final defense value.  Tankers can certainly do their jobs without Stealth.  

 

If you like Stealth on a tank, cool.  What is your idea?  

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Its been stated that won't happen, by you know, homecoming's powers guy.   Because defense is too high.

I was looking at raw numbers unenhanced last night, and I think the ice armor parallel while close - mainly because of the energy absorption/energy drain similarity - I think I found another comparison that fits better.  I think ice armor while similar is more unique.

 

The absorption/drain thing was throwing me off.

 

If you look at raw unenhanced numbers EA most resembles Invul. Energy Drain is like a click version of Invincibility. Both scale per enemy in range both have similar resist numbers.  EA has the much faster self heal + regen and also end management - that's where the problem will lie in porting to tankers I think - but as it is, how often is dull pain needed - not very in my world - so is that really a problem?

[Maxzero]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I was looking at raw numbers unenhanced last night, and I think the ice armor parallel while close - mainly because of the energy absorption/energy drain similarity - I think I found another comparison that fits better.  I think ice armor while similar is more unique.

 

The absorption/drain thing was throwing me off.

 

If you look at raw unenhanced numbers EA most resembles Invul. Energy Drain is like a click version of Invincibility. Both scale per enemy in range both have similar resist numbers.  EA has the much faster self heal + regen and also end management - that's where the problem will lie in porting to tankers I think - but as it is, how often is dull pain needed - not very in my world - so is that really a problem?

 

To me the problem isn't the defence. SR has just as much if not more def with capped DDR yet SR, while excellent, does not crush every other Primary. What makes EA so good is that it gets SR level DEF against ALL of the most common damage types AND some decent resists against those same damage types.

 

Looking at the Brute numbers you a see EA with a ~5% edge in def and a ~15% edge in resist against S/L/E/NE.

 

Considering how its that last 5-10% of def/res stats that make the biggest difference in survival that is a significant edge. The +recharge and end management is just the big fat cherry on top.

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Arisara said:

First consider what you're not thinking about a tank derived from the words "last person standing". If you're a tank there should be no one last. Everyone should be standing at the end of the fight. Often I have joined blasters, controllers.. other types boasting of their ability to tank this or tank that yet their teammates get defeated. Tanking is not only killing and surviving. A tank will maintain aggro no matter what anyone else does. If you're teammates are dying you're not tanking. Ya may as well make a scrapper.

 

To the question; hmm.. an unstoppable tank. I have a few ideas of what they are and verified the results from playing the builds. I like the classic invulnerability/super strength invention set for defense and enough recharge for permanent rage. Recovery never was any trouble up through the levels thanks to monitoring values with Mids (thank you, Bopper and your Mids team).

 

I run a beautiful dark/dark tank built to instill fear. With the newest change to Touch of Fear making the power an AOE the tank maintains 8 magnitude fear AOE and 11 magnitude single target. Recovery is also not a problem here; recharge sets to operate permanent fear also assists Dark Consumption cooldown. The fear tanker has less resistance and defense than other tanks however when mobs only break fear every few seconds to get off a single attack I find using Dark Regeneration is not even necessary. Fear tanker also keeps going without rest.

 

I wanted a solo AV killer. My first attempt was rad/rad tank for reading Radiation Therapy's description mentioning it caused Foe -regen. For a long time I had not noticed the -regen effect does not apply to critters. When I did notice I checked Mid's database editor to find the answer. The -regen power does not apply to critters; it's a PvP application. Scrap one rad tanker. The second attempt at solo AV killer tanker kept radiation melee but switched out primary for Bio Armor. There I found DNA Siphon which DOES affect critters with -regen. Invention set for recharge and defense the build also never stops fighting for self heals cooling down in a timely manner, recovery well above average and having near cap defenses. Recharge was needed to ensure permanent -regen on an AV and everything turned out sweeter for DNA Siphon being PBAOE. Bring on Hopkins and Countess Crey at the same time!

 

A favorite a little away from tanker is an Electric Melee/Shield Defense brute. The build would work well as a tank though my purpose was as much damage buff as possible for the triple hit Spring Attack/Lightning Rod/Shield Charge. Brute Fury was the desire to add to the overkill. Ya.. I've seen the chatter about how underwhelming Spring Attack is. Beef it up! The build doesn't have the tanker gauntlet that makes the simplest attacks PBAOE taunt. Teammates still survive after the brute dishes out 2260 damage AOE before activating Thunder Strike and Chain Induction (usually there's nothing left to attack after the triple slam recharging each 38 seconds). Resting was needed after 4 fights or so until reaching level for Superior Conditioning (which keeps the brute going non-stop after that point). It's invention set for recharge (again the recharge.. I do go in for that on most builds) and did not need much in sets to overcap defenses. Unfortunately I don't show it off much on teams. No one else gets to kill a darn thing except an occasional stray runner.

 

Who hasn't tried their hand at a Fiery Aura/Ice Melee Tanker? After seeing a controller's Ice Patch everyone just gets the idea to lay one down with a Tanker and Burn enemies flopping like fish outta water. This one is invention set for defense as a primary concern. It ended up with 36 defenses, lower than usual smashing/lethal resists but still tanks well with Healing Flames and Consume (20 second cooldown and 77 second cooldown) picking up slack when something does manage to stand up and attack for a moment. As the others this one never needs to stop fighting.

 

Something with a little of everything: Martial Arts/Energy Aura. This one only comes in Brute form. The Tankers don't get Energy Aura at this time. .. Thus the Martial Arts for Cobra Strike stun and Dragon's Tale PBAOE to make up a little for the lacking Gauntlet taunts (and some Cross Punch cone thrown in). Invention set for defense with pool power defenses has overcapped almost everything (psionic defense is low) and it has 45 resistances to almost everything (fire/cold is low). Energy Drain and Energize keeps it fighting forever.

 

I've made other Brutes that fight forever but are not designed to tank so are not mentioned here in response to the original curiosity of what kinds of Tankers are unstoppable. Remember; tanking is not only killing and surviving. Tankers keep aggro off of everyone else.

 

The point of this thread was one of discovery, I have zero experience with tanks, during live and now I have only ever made brutes.

I finally got around recently to making a stalker and a scrapper. 

I prefer to quantify ATs through comic explanations ie Wolverine is a scrapper, Superman is a tank, etc.

Through my eyes "last man standing" equates to everyone in the JLA is beaten and Supes is the one who saves the day.

I did not think of the purpose of the tanker while starting this thread, which in the end is to control aggro.

 

So I have a Elec/SD broot that destroys mobs, a rad/fire and spines/fire broots that run fire farms no sweat. I have an elec/SD stalker and an EM/EA stalker that can handle anything thrown at them.

Everything I'm used to is eliminating mobs as fast as possible, so running a tank to be the center of attention is different, but, considering how fast mobs are steam rolled these days does the tank still fill that spot?

 

On a side note, I'm going to look at a "fear tank" you piqued my curiosity on this. 

[Infinitum]

43 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

To me the problem isn't the defence. SR has just as much if not more def with capped DDR yet SR, while excellent, does not crush every other Primary. What makes EA so good is that it gets SR level DEF against ALL of the most common damage types AND some decent resists against those same damage types.

 

Looking at the Brute numbers you a see EA with a ~5% edge in def and a ~15% edge in resist against S/L/E/NE.

 

Considering how its that last 5-10% of def/res stats that make the biggest difference in survival that is a significant edge. The +recharge and end management is just the big fat cherry on top.

check this out - first Brute EA vs Invul - unenhanced base values.

 

Next extrapolate that to tanker numbers basing it off of how invul scales up from brute invul to tanker invul and applying that same scale to hypothetical tanker EA.

 

 

From looking at these numbers - i cant see any reason to not port it to tankers with the tanker values.

 

Just had to change the way i was thinking about EA - but it would likely play very similar to tanker invul with more clicking.

[Infinitum]

39 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Everything I'm used to is eliminating mobs as fast as possible, so running a tank to be the center of attention is different, but, considering how fast mobs are steam rolled these days does the tank still fill that spot?

To answer this honestly - it depends -tankers AOE is best, can hit more so it obliterates minions and lieutenants faster than most.

 

Once you get to hard targets tankers arent the best at that but can still do good damage and retain agro control of the hard target.

 

So yeah they have a use even on steamroll teams.

[Gobbledigook]

It could be that the Tanker ATO proc giving more resists is a big part of the problem. 

 

Were defence sets ever meant to have such high resists that come from that proc and a good IO build. It puts them at the top of the pile when they also have high DDR. Barely getting hit and negating most of what does get through.

 

Maybe the proc should have been 3%resistance and 3%defence instead for example. Or even 2%resist 2%defence 100%regen maybe. As it is now I think it favors Defence sets more.

 

Lol 'runs and hides' 🤣

Edited January 2, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[Maxzero]

8 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

It could be that the Tanker ATO proc giving more resists is a big part of the problem. 

 

Were defence sets ever meant to have such high resists that come from that proc and a good IO build. It puts them at the top of the pile when they also have high DDR. Barely getting hit and negating most of what does get through.

 

Maybe the proc should have been 3%resistance and 3%defence instead for example. Or even 2%resist 2%defence 100%regen maybe. As it is now I think it favors Defence sets more.

 

Lol 'runs and hides' 🤣

 

Honestly think the Resist ATO is a little overrated. While its great in AoE situations (in a damage aura for example) in ST situations if you calculate its proc rate and uptime it often is barely maintaining 1 stack.

[Dark Dove]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

That still won't change what I am telling you that a tankers role is to

1. Grab and maintain agro

2. Survive it

3. Dish out damage.

But the conversation isn't about what a tanker's role is.

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

lol. I'm not the bad guy here.  Don't get mad at facts though.

We see you.

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

But the conversation isn't about what a tanker's role is.

This is true -  it also wasnt about stealth in current powersets either till you took offense at something totally unrelated to what pissed you off - nobody is trying to take anything away from you.  Play how every you want.  How many time must I say that to you?   lol

 

Then it turned into what a tankers role is - which is to... Say it again with me

1. Grab and maintain agro

2. Survive it

3. Dish out damage.

10 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

We see you.

Thats good because I dont have stealth toggled on.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

It could be that the Tanker ATO proc giving more resists is a big part of the problem. 

 

Were defence sets ever meant to have such high resists that come from that proc and a good IO build. It puts them at the top of the pile when they also have high DDR. Barely getting hit and negating most of what does get through.

 

Maybe the proc should have been 3%resistance and 3%defence instead for example. Or even 2%resist 2%defence 100%regen maybe. As it is now I think it favors Defence sets more.

 

Lol 'runs and hides' 🤣

We are talking more about hybrid sets but i get what you are saying.

[Dark Dove]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

This is true -  it also wasnt about stealth in current powersets either till you took offense at something totally unrelated to what pissed you off - nobody is trying to take anything away from you.  Play how every you want.  How many time must I say that to you?   lol

 

Then it turned into what a tankers role is - which is to... Say it again with me

1. Grab and maintain agro

2. Survive it

3. Dish out damage.

Thats good because I dont have stealth toggled on.

Roles don't define every power in every powerset. There are reasons outside of role to include different effects and incentives.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Maxzero said:

 

Honestly think the Resist ATO is a little overrated. While its great in AoE situations (in a damage aura for example) in ST situations if you calculate its proc rate and uptime it often is barely maintaining 1 stack.

I'm not in game at the moment but isn't the superior 5ppm? In a single target attack with some global recharge it should proc regularily and stack. 

 

I think most tankers will go for the boss anyway and let the AoE take care of the trash.

 

But I think 14% or so extra resists is great for a defence/hybrid set but not so good for a resistance set like Elec Armor as it has very high resists anyway and the proc may just overcap and be wasted. Defence sets get DDR to make their defence debuff immune and then high resists with IOs and the MoT proc that is also debuff immune mostly. A resist set get resist only, well mostly and defence if built for it that is debuffed very easily.

 

I think it is a little biased towards defence sets more. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

Roles don't define every power in every powerset. There are reasons outside of role to include different effects and incentives.

And that is also fine, but at the end of the day tankers dont need stealth to be good tankers - which is why if you had to give something up to gain EA for tankers - that is where you would start.

[Dark Dove]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And that is also fine, but at the end of the day tankers dont need stealth to be good tankers - which is why if you had to give something up to gain EA for tankers - that is where you would start.

Finally, a rational point that is on topic.  I don't disagree with this assessment, except in the matter of needing to give it up to gain EA for Tankers.  The stealth does nothing to make the tanker worse, and since by your judgement, it does nothing to make a tanker better, it cannot be the crux of balance necessary to make EA accessible to Tankers, as it has no value apparently, so where is the purpose in giving it up?

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Finally, a rational point that is on topic.  I don't disagree with this assessment, except in the matter of needing to give it up to gain EA for Tankers.  The stealth does nothing to make the tanker worse, and since by your judgement, it does nothing to make a tanker better, it cannot be the crux of balance necessary to make EA accessible to Tankers, as it has no value apparently, so where is the purpose in giving it up?

All my points were rational and factual and on topic.

 

It was already stated that giving that up would give up a little defense also since stealth is normally tied to defense.

 

The sticking point is CPH is worried EA had too much defense - so with it being a tanker - stealth is not needed and would sacrifice the defense that goes with it to bring it in line with what coild work.  They took stealth out of sent EA which was also stated - so there is already precedent for that move.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Infinitum

[Dark Dove]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

All my points were rational and factual and on topic.

 

It was already stated that giving that up would give up a little defense also since stealth is normally tied to defense.

 

The sticking point is CPH is worried EA had too much defense - so with it being a tanker - stealth is not needed and would sacrifice the defense that goes with it to bring it in line with what coild work.  They took stealth out of sent EA which was also stated - so there is already precedent for that move.

Alright, nice discussion, thanks!  You do you, tanker!

[Gobbledigook]

And I was hoping my post would derail your argument lol. 

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

And I was hoping my post would derail your argument lol. 

lol which one? theres about 3 or 4 to choose from on this one, none of which pertain to the OP really.

 

Sorry OP

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

And that is also fine, but at the end of the day tankers dont need stealth to be good tankers - which is why if you had to give something up to gain EA for tankers - that is where you would start.

If it is something tankers do not need then by definition giving it up should not get you anything as you have not really given up anything.

 

The real problem with altering Energy Cloak to do something else more in line with tanking is that Energy Aura is, when you look at all it already has, a really good power set. It has healing, endurance recovery, and recharge boost. Shield, awesome as it is, does not heal you or keep you in a fight if you run out of endurance. Super Reflexes has neither healing nor endurance recovery and while it has inherent Recharge boosting, it cannot hit the highs Energy Aura does.

 

Arguably for all that Energy Aura brings to the table, getting the minor defense boost that Energy Cloak brings along with the situational usage of stealth is its balance. If you replace Energy Cloak it needs to be with something that brings nothing more to the table.

[Dark Dove]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

lol which one? theres about 3 or 4 to choose from on this one, none of which pertain to the OP really.

 

Sorry OP

Yep, I agree, sorry OP, all of this EA stuff should be in suggestions and feedback. EA isn't a Tanker set to choose from right now so it's irrelevant. Hope you find or found something you enjoy playing, OP! Most tankers are unstoppable if you build them right which is easy, and play them right which is something you'll pick up on.

[The_Warpact]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

3 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

Yep, I agree, sorry OP, all of this EA stuff should be in suggestions and feedback. EA isn't a Tanker set to choose from right now so it's irrelevant. Hope you find or found something you enjoy playing, OP! Most tankers are unstoppable if you build them right which is easy, and play them right which is something you'll pick up on.

Sorry OP

No worries....while I hate to do this but curiosity is getting the better of me and not to start another.....lengthy conversation, Energy cloak if ported over wouldn't equate to a Cloak of Darkness type toggle? (Honestly, I "skimmed" over your guys posts, sorry too much for my old eyes to keep up with, so I might be missing ALOT)

 

I dont have access to Mids so I can look at the numbers, but, a port over should be relatively easy with some adjustments. 

Although as a tanker which to me is the center of attention having a stealth seems...odd.

BUT, I think of Martian Manhunter and it makes sense to me at least. 

 

Back to the subject at hand, I went with a Dk/Dk tanker. Numbers look good, and seems with all the -to hit, heals, regen, recovery, its going to seem unstoppable. 

I'll probably go with GW pool for gloom and darkest night.

[Dark Dove]

8 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

No worries....while I hate to do this but curiosity is getting the better of me and not to start another.....lengthy conversation, Energy cloak if ported over wouldn't equate to a Cloak of Darkness type toggle? (Honestly, I "skimmed" over your guys posts, sorry too much for my old eyes to keep up with, so I might be missing ALOT)

 

I dont have access to Mids so I can look at the numbers, but, a port over should be relatively easy with some adjustments. 

Although as a tanker which to me is the center of attention having a stealth seems...odd.

BUT, I think of Martian Manhunter and it makes sense to me at least. 

 

Back to the subject at hand, I went with a Dk/Dk tanker. Numbers look good, and seems with all the -to hit, heals, regen, recovery, its going to seem unstoppable. 

I'll probably go with GW pool for gloom and darkest night.

Don't forget Dark Obliteration if you can fit it in, it's a great AoE.