Let's Talk About Resurrection Powers

[oedipus_tex]

Resurrection powers! Let's talk about them.

 

This is more of a prompt than an actual specific idea. I'll post some general ideas below, without any actual commitment to them. What would you change? For the purposes of this post, I am focused only on single target rezzes.

 

 

You can copy and paste the tree below and add your own ideas.

 

 

In game documentation:

• Empathy: Resurrect
  • Resurrects a fallen ally with full Hit Points and Endurance. The Resurrected target is left protected from XP Debt for 90 seconds.
• Nature: Rebirth
  • Rebirth can either greatly heal a conscious ally for a large amount of health over time or it can revive a fallen ally with a large amount of health and endurance and cause them to recover health over time. This power also grants 3 stacks of Bloom.
• Pain: Conduit of Pain
  • You revive a fallen ally by becoming a Conduit of Pain and transferring the pain that was inflicted upon them back upon your enemies. This will briefly empower you increasing your damage output, recovery rate, attack rate and chance to hit. After a minute the effect will wear off leaving you weakened for 30 seconds. Your damage, attack rate and chance to hit will all be reduced during this period.
• Poison: Elixir of Life
  • With this Elixir, you can revive a fallen ally and turn him into a killing machine. The revived target has increased damage, chance to hit, Endurance recovery, and attack speed, and gains a resistance to Toxic damage. A brew of this sort is not without its side effects. The revived target will soon become very sick and severely weak after about 90 seconds. All effects of the Elixir will eventually wear off. Elixir of Life can only be used on Players and cannot be used on your Henchmen.
• Radiation: Mutation
  • Using a concentrated burst of radiation, you can revive a fallen hero and Mutate them into a killing machine. The Mutated hero has increased damage, chance to hit, Endurance recovery, and attack speed and is protected from XP Debt fort 90 seconds. The entire experience is very taxing on the Mutated hero, and they will soon be severely weakened. All effects of the Mutation will eventually wear off.
• Thermal: Power of the Phoenix
  • Revives a fallen ally. The fiery resurrection blasts nearby foes with an explosion and knocks them down and Disorients them. Your ally will revive with most of their Hit Points and Endurance. They will also be invulnerable for a brief time, as well as protected from XPDebt for 90 seconds.

 

 

 

My thoughts:

 

• Empathy: Resurrect
  • IMO this is currently the weakest Resurrection power, which is strange to me because Empathy is the set I'd most associate with a strong Resurrect power.
  • Alternative 1: Simple changes. Reduce Recharge to 90 (down from 180). 
  • Alternative 2: When cast on a living ally, the ally is granted a temporary power for X seconds that allows them to heal themselves when they click it.
• Nature: Rebirth
  • This rezz already has an effect on the living, so may be fine. 180s is quite a long time to wait for it to Recharge tho. I wish it Recharged in 60s when used as a Heal and 180 when used as a rezz.   
• Pain: Conduit of Pain
  • Alternative 1: Like Soul Transfer (rezz self from nearby enemies), but uses allies. When player is dead, can cast Conduit of Pain to revive self by siphoning from ally. They can reject the attempt.
  • Alternative 2: Like Howling Twighlight (the aoe rezz). Castable even while dead. Raises all players in vicinity as long as at least one player is alive. If used this way, Recharge time is set to 1000s.
• Poison: Elixir of Life
  • Seems like this should be useable on the living, possibly with only some of the benefits.  
  • Alternative 1: Would be cool if you could self cast this and gain a temporary power that allowed you to resurrect yourself if you died.
  • Alternative 2: Cast on a dead enemy to temporarily raise a Zombie minion
  • Alternative 3: Cast on an enemy, that enemy is prevented from Resurrection (e.g. Super Stunners). Just make sure this doesn't break the ITF.
• Radiation: Mutation
  • Cast on the living, +damage +toHit 
• Thermal: Power of the Phoenix
  • This power may already be okay. I could see it summoning Bonfire for 60 seconds when cast on self.

[Greycat]

Personally, I don't think they really need changes in general. They're there to do one specific thing and they do it reliably. The only thing I'd like to see on them is if you cast it on someone who's AFK and the timer runs out, it gets recharged much faster. It's *really* annoying to try to rez someone - or have multiple people see the same person down in, say, an MSR and have them waste all the rezzes for whatever reason.

[Riverdusk]

I like these ideas as self rezzes are so easy to come by now that rez as a power isn't nearly as useful as it use to be (and even early on they were so-so).  I know almost every time when I actually try and use howling twilight as a rez the person has already hit a self rez before I can even get it off (or it gets ignored as noted by @Greycat).  If it didn't have other great effects it would be a skip every time. 

 

Honestly I'd put the regen and dark armor self rezzes in this as well.   Perhaps give regen's rez similar buffs that willpower's self rez has.  It'd be nice for the dark armor one to not need a target to work (but would still work better and stun when there are targets). 

 

The self rez in willpower is actually underrated as it does have some nice buffs although maybe cut down on its penalty phase.  Rise of the Phoenix is pretty nice as it has its attack (and is available on more squishy AT's, so more likely to be of use) so I think that one is fine as is. 

 

 

[Razor Cure]

Dark Miasma:

 Activating this power channels the power of the Netherworld to weaken your foes, in an attempt to revive all nearby fallen allies. You must stand near your defeated allies to revive them, then select a foe. The selected foe and all nearby foes will be Slowed, Disoriented, have their Regeneration rate reduced and drained of some life. Revived allies will have full Hit Points and Endurance and will be protected from XP Debt for 90 seconds. Recharge: Long

 

Great power. I like how it is useful for the stun/slow/-regen as well. And cant beat rezzing 16 people at once. Can be a lil tricksy because you need to be near the dead person..but targetting a baddie who is alive. Could perhaps make it a pbaoe rez that works any time..but that would remove how unique it is.

 

Electric Affinity:

 Strike a target with a highly-charged jolt of electricity, reviving all nearby allies and draining all nearby foes. Any enemies affected will be drained of some endurance, have their recovery reduced and be put to sleep for a short time. Defibrillate consumes all stacks of Static, and the strength of the offensive component of this power scales with the number of stacks consumed. Allies will always be revived with full health and endurance regardless of the number of Static stacks consumed. Recharge: Long

 

Also aoe. And the full health/end is nice.

This part makes no sense..

 Power Type:Click Target Type:TargetDeadOrAliveAny Power Range:7.00 ft. Effect Area:Single Target Attack Types:melee

 

I have never actually tried using it on someone alive? Also, teh animation is utterly, utterly shit. I mean, it looks great, but takes a week. WHy, when you can FIRE lightning from your hands, does a 'rez-shock' require hang time of Michael Jordan duration?

 

 

I think all the other ally rez powers are fine. Besides Empaty. The rest all do a lil something special and different. I'd perhaps give Empathy something else too.

 

 

[Parabola]

My issues with resurrection powers of both types (self and other) are more to do with the defeat mechanics themselves than the powers. My first issue is that defeat results in immediate toggle drop creating an annoying process of retoggling before you can get back in the fight when you or someone else activates a rez power. My second issue is that defeat is automatically treated as a failure state for master runs and debt and this leads to the self rez powers in particular being avoided.

 

I'm wondering if the mechanics of defeat could be changed so that your toggles only suppress rather than drop completely, and possibly that rez by power (maybe primary and secondary rez powers only) removes the debt and wipes the defeat from the count for master runs etc.

 

This would provide an incentive to take the primary and secondary rez powers and encourage their use. It would encourage a more aggressive playstyle when rez powers are available which is always fun. I tend to play like this anyway, particularly on a set with a self rez as debt is largely ignorable these days, but toggling up is still a pain.

 

There would be an element of power creep about this and I certainly don't think the game needs that overall but it would I think improve these powers considerably.

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, parabola said:

I'm wondering if the mechanics of defeat could be changed so that your toggles only suppress rather than drop completely, and possibly that rez by power (maybe primary and secondary rez powers only) removes the debt and wipes the defeat from the count for master runs etc.

I...can't see either of those ever happening. Both of those seem pretty appropriate, seeing as you died.

[Parabola]

5 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I...can't see either of those ever happening. Both of those seem pretty appropriate, seeing as you died.

Yeah I see what you're saying. I suppose I'm wondering if we could split defeat into two conditions, ko and death, where ko is what happens when you immediately go down and death is what happens if you don't have a primary or secondary power to get back up again. That way the self rez powers in particular become more appealing. They are so flavourful that it's a shame that people avoid taking them because 'why would I take a power that requires me to fail to use it'. I'm wondering if the 'fail' can be taken out of the equation.

 

This is very pie in the sky thinking I totally admit though. These mechanics are doubtless deeply baked in and I've not really sat down and thought through the balance of it all.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:39 AM, Monos King said:

I...can't see either of those ever happening. Both of those seem pretty appropriate, seeing as you died.

 

On 12/19/2020 at 6:54 AM, parabola said:

Yeah I see what you're saying. I suppose I'm wondering if we could split defeat into two conditions, ko and death, where ko is what happens when you immediately go down and death is what happens if you don't have a primary or secondary power to get back up again. That way the self rez powers in particular become more appealing. They are so flavourful that it's a shame that people avoid taking them because 'why would I take a power that requires me to fail to use it'. I'm wondering if the 'fail' can be taken out of the equation.

 

This is very pie in the sky thinking I totally admit though. These mechanics are doubtless deeply baked in and I've not really sat down and thought through the balance of it all.

I agree with the conditions here, having actual revive powers revoke actual "deaths" seems appropriate and would make them have actual value.

[oedipus_tex]

I wonder if for X seconds after a resurrection power there's a way to cause a toggle to have no or a very quick cast time.

[Razor Cure]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:55 PM, parabola said:

My first issue is that defeat results in immediate toggle drop creating an annoying process of retoggling before you can get back in the fight when you or someone else activates a rez power.

This makes sense (the toggle drop) BUT is also exactly the reason why Return to battle (P2W rez) is far and away better than almost every rez in the game. I think only PotP renders you invul for a short period?

[Dragon Crush]

11 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

This makes sense (the toggle drop) BUT is also exactly the reason why Return to battle (P2W rez) is far and away better than almost every rez in the game. I think only PotP renders you invul for a short period?

IIRC Rise of the Phoenix also makes you invulnerable for about 15 seconds. Having Rise bumped to 20 and all rezs getting a standard 8-10 seconds of invulnerability for re-toggles would be nice.

[Razor Cure]

Is it really 15 secs? I mean, maybe the info says that, but I am almost positivve I have seen people take damage long before that. Even if it is 15..I think that's way too long. If you cant retoggle/get out of danger in about 8 seconds, max, you are donig something very wrong.

[oedipus_tex]

PoTP does indeed provide 15 seconds of Untouchable.

 

It's a bit of a double edged sword because you also can't receive teammate buffs during that time.

Edited December 20, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Parabola]

11 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Is it really 15 secs? I mean, maybe the info says that, but I am almost positivve I have seen people take damage long before that. Even if it is 15..I think that's way too long. If you cant retoggle/get out of danger in about 8 seconds, max, you are donig something very wrong.

Well ... If we take a typical Dark Armour character of mine they run with the following toggles on full time (with arcanatime cast times):

 

Dark Embrace 0.924s

Death Shroud 3.696s

Murky Cloud 1.32s

Obsidian Shield 1.32s

Cloak of Darkness 1.32s

Tough 3.3s

Weave 0.924s

Combat Jumping 1.848s

 

Adding up to 14.652s of casting to retoggle. This also excludes Oppressive Gloom (at another 1.32s) which I use for special occasions and any situation capable of dropping me to 0 health would tend to be that.

 

Soul Transfer says it gives 15s of untouchable so just about enough time to retoggle if indeed it is 15s and I chain them all together seamlessly ... But it just seems clunky to me - standing around for all that time as a tax for using my tier 9 power (in addition to the debt). The stun part of the power wears off after 11.92s unenhanced so that's long gone by the time I'm armoured up too.

 

I think all the self rez powers (but particularly Soul Transfer and Rise of the Phoenix) should be iconic powers in their sets. They have awesome flavour but the mechanics are such that people often don't take them. That is a shame in my book. The flavour text in these powers even talks about 'you revive yourself from the brink of death' rather than 'from death', I'm suggesting we actually create a 'brink of death' state where toggles suppress rather than drop and debt does not yet occur because death hasn't actually happened. Then if you are revived using a primary or secondary rez power you come up swinging and death only truly occurs if one of these powers is not available.

 

Anyway, as I said before this is probably mechanically difficult to unpick so couldn't happen but it's an idea I've had kicking around at the back of my head for a while and this seemed an ideal opportunity to air it. 😀

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, parabola said:

I think all the self rez powers (but particularly Soul Transfer and Rise of the Phoenix) should be iconic powers in their sets. They have awesome flavour but the mechanics are such that people often don't take them. That is a shame in my book. The flavour text in these powers even talks about 'you revive yourself from the brink of death' rather than 'from death', I'm suggesting we actually create a 'brink of death' state where toggles suppress rather than drop and debt does not yet occur because death hasn't actually happened. Then if you are revived using a primary or secondary rez power you come up swinging and death only truly occurs if one of these powers is not available.

 

Anyway, as I said before this is probably mechanically difficult to unpick so couldn't happen but it's an idea I've had kicking around at the back of my head for a while and this seemed an ideal opportunity to air it. 😀

Stealing from Borderlands 2, the character Krieg has a specific skill that can only be activated if you are at 33% HP or lower. I wonder if something similar could be done with these sets where the power is greyed out, but is active with the Orange Circle if you hit a certain HP threshold where you can use it's full effect while alive?

[ninja surprise]

23 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Is it really 15 secs? I mean, maybe the info says that, but I am almost positivve I have seen people take damage long before that. Even if it is 15..I think that's way too long. If you cant retoggle/get out of danger in about 8 seconds, max, you are donig something very wrong.

If things are bad enough that someone gets defeated... if you can't get out of danger and retoggled in 2 seconds it's because you got stomped back into the dirt again.

Like yesterday I was doing a test solo ITF with a Energy/Ninjitsu Scrapper. Got defeated by an ambush that caught up at a new crystal. I popped the self-rez that does a big knockback and applies a set of Big Insps but there were so many critters they didn't all KB and before I could get two toggles up I was smashed again.

A standard level 50 melee character would have at least 10 seconds worth of toggles to turn on and plenty of toggles root you so you can't move while activating...

 

 

Empathy: Resurrect

Add a post-rez buff to defense/status protection so the target isn't a useless punching bag with full HP/Endurance. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by ninja surprise

[Galaxy Brain]

just curious, do the untouchable portions of rezzes apply after the animation....?

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

Like yesterday I was doing a test solo ITF with a Energy/Ninjitsu Scrapper.

Really? A SOLO tf is a good measure of how good/bad a self rez is? Also, I'd argue a wakie (of any kind) is NOT a self rez power. In no way should walkies (unless its like the Super version) provide ANY period of invul.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Razor Cure

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

A standard level 50 melee character would have at least 10 seconds worth of toggles to turn on and plenty of toggles root you so you can't move while activating...

That is assuming you are turning on ALL your toggles. WHich..why would you, if the plan was to rez and run?

Mez Prot toggle, 'main defensive toggle,' travel power...Escape. Thats like 8 seconds at most.

 

And if the plan is to rez and face tank whatever killed you (meaning you are not gonna run at all), then how can you complain if said situation kills you again, since it already killed you with all those toggles up?

[Haijinx]

all rezzes need to work before you die to have use in todays game 

 

Basically work depending on set as a complete heal from almost dead, to a Nuke, to a big debuff whatever.  

 

I think only Howling twilight currently works as an awesome power even if no one dies, more of this. 

[ninja surprise]

49 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Really? A SOLO tf is a good measure of how good/bad a self rez is? Also, I'd argue a wakie (of any kind) is NOT a self rez power. In no way should walkies (unless its like the Super version) provide ANY period of invul.

I just re-read my post and didn't see that claim in there anywhere so I have no idea what you're arguing about.   

To be clear: Empathy is a powerset and Resurrect is the name of Emp's rez power.   It is not a wakie inspiration.  I made the suggestion for the power "Add a post-rez buff to defense/status protection so the target isn't a useless punching bag". This would be useful in battles where the enemies are throwing out mez like halloween candy and prevent the "Rez! held... dead" thing 

54 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

And if the plan is to rez and face tank whatever killed you (meaning you are not gonna run at all), then how can you complain if said situation kills you again, since it already killed you with all those toggles up?

Looks like you just caught up with the purpose of the suggestion thread! Make the rez's better so you have a buffer of time to help out the team before it wipes!

 

[Razor Cure]

19 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Looks like you just caught up with the purpose of the suggestion thread! Make the rez's better so you have a buffer of time to help out the team before it wipes!

Yeah I totally needed to catch up. It's not like I posted above yours already, talking about other rez powers. Maybe you need to keep up?

Also, you are the one talking about using a rez power (P2W ones) on a SOLO tf..so any buffs to powerset rezzes..would mean jack shit in that situation, hmm?

 

[oedipus_tex]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:52 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

just curious, do the untouchable portions of rezzes apply after the animation....?

 

Yes the untouchable portion lasts the stated duration. You're most likely to experience it playing Thermal, because the temptation is to rezz and then immediately re-fire-shield your ally. The power will not affect the target if you try though.