Ice Armor Update

[Galaxy Brain]

Goal:

Ice Armor is a solid set, but it has some flaws with it's ability to scale to harder content as well as a "Wasted" power budget with a HUGE amount of Cold Resistance that over-caps before slotting, as well as being a bit sketchy due to how rare Cold damage actually is (less than 2% of all damage from NPCs is Cold)!

 

I think that the theme as an Armor set that has a specialty of debuffing enemies around you should be kept and emphasized, while also rounding out some of the rough bits of the design.

 

 

Changes:

 

Frozen Armor: Reduce the Cold resistance from 30% to 20%  (Using Tanker numbers for ease on all these), but allow it to now slot Resistance Enhancements and Sets. This is sort of a meta buff with more slotting options, but it also allows you to beef up the fire res a bit which is much more common.

 

Chilling Embrace: Simply buff the numbers here a scootch, from ~ -15% Dam/~ -30% Slow > -20% Dam/-40% Slow

 

Permafrost: Add in 5% res to Smashing / Lethal / Energy / Negative / Toxic damage

 

Icicles: Change the damage type to Cold, all other armors have "matching" types for their auras. On top of this, Icicles now applies a minor -Speed/Recharge debuff on enemies hit (something small like 7.5%)

 

Glacial Armor: Remove the cold resistance entirely here. Instead, gain 8.5% defense to Fire/Cold damage.

 

Energy Absorption: Add -Recharge/-Recovery/-Damage to all foes struck, similar to how Cold Dom powers "sap" heat. Example values: -10% Recharge/Slow, -5% Damage, -25% Recovery

 

Hibernate (Tank/Brute only): Upon use, drops a pseudo-pet that casts Chilling Embrace 2.0 using the numbers above that slows down and softens up enemies for the team, as well as yourself when you end hibernation. This is meant to stack up once you pop out as your other toggles suppress while hibernating, making it have a more competitive use.

 

 

Totals (Base values, full Energy Absorb):

 

	Current	New
Other Def	25	25
F/C Def	8	16.5
Cold Res	120	80
Fire Res	25	25
Other Res	0	5
-Rech	-32	-57.5
-Dam	-14	-25
-Rech Hibernate	-32	-75
-Dam Hibernate	-14	-45

 

The big changes here are to the Recharge/Slow  as well as Damage Debuffs, especially if you pop Hibernate and stack those up with Chilling/Icicles/Energy Absorb! In either a solo or group setting, this is a unique method of defense that Cold Domination also deploys by stacking defense with slowed incoming DPS, meaning you take less hits on top of less hits being dished in a similar time frame, and if they do land they should hit for less. Not only does this work well for you, but for team mates as well which is an added perk that can help with tougher content as you stack your debuffs with others. The change to Icicles will also be a big boost as swapping damage types means a lot more enemies will take that much more damage over time. On top of the more meta tweaks to Frozen Armor and the addition of slow to a few powers if need be.

 

On the whole the tweaks here are sort of minor but I feel they snowball into something more meaningful when you look at the grand scheme!

 

-Galaxy Brain

[Quindorrian]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Goal:

Ice Armor is a solid set, but it has some flaws with it's ability to scale to harder content as well as a "Wasted" power budget with a HUGE amount of Cold Resistance that over-caps before slotting, as well as being a bit sketchy due to how rare Cold damage actually is (less than 2% of all damage from NPCs is Cold)!

 

I think that the theme as an Armor set that has a specialty of debuffing enemies around you should be kept and emphasized, while also rounding out some of the rough bits of the design.

 

 

Changes:

 

Frozen Armor: Reduce the Cold resistance from 30% to 20%  (Using Tanker numbers for ease on all these), but allow it to now slot Resistance Enhancements and Sets. This is sort of a meta buff with more slotting options, but it also allows you to beef up the fire res a bit which is much more common.

 

Chilling Embrace: Simply buff the numbers here a scootch, from ~ -15% Dam/~ -30% Slow > -20% Dam/-40% Slow

 

Permafrost: Add in 5% res to Smashing / Lethal / Energy / Negative / Toxic damage

 

Icicles: Change the damage type to Cold, all other armors have "matching" types for their auras. On top of this, Icicles now applies a minor -Speed/Recharge debuff on enemies hit (something small like 7.5%)

 

Glacial Armor: Remove the cold resistance entirely here. Instead, gain 8.5% defense to Fire/Cold damage.

 

Energy Absorption: Add -Recharge/-Recovery/-Damage to all foes struck, similar to how Cold Dom powers "sap" heat. Example values: -10% Recharge/Slow, -5% Damage, -25% Recovery

 

Hibernate (Tank/Brute only): Upon use, drops a pseudo-pet that casts Chilling Embrace 2.0 using the numbers above that slows down and softens up enemies for the team, as well as yourself when you end hibernation. This is meant to stack up once you pop out as your other toggles suppress while hibernating, making it have a more competitive use.

 

 

Totals (Base values, full Energy Absorb):

 

 

	Current	New
Other Def	25	25
F/C Def	8	16.5
Cold Res	120	80
Fire Res	25	25
Other Res	0	5
-Rech	-32	-57.5
-Dam	-14	-25
-Rech Hibernate	-32	-75
-Dam Hibernate	-14	-45

 

The big changes here are to the Recharge/Slow  as well as Damage Debuffs, especially if you pop Hibernate and stack those up with Chilling/Icicles/Energy Absorb! In either a solo or group setting, this is a unique method of defense that Cold Domination also deploys by stacking defense with slowed incoming DPS, meaning you take less hits on top of less hits being dished in a similar time frame, and if they do land they should hit for less. Not only does this work well for you, but for team mates as well which is an added perk that can help with tougher content as you stack your debuffs with others. The change to Icicles will also be a big boost as swapping damage types means a lot more enemies will take that much more damage over time. On top of the more meta tweaks to Frozen Armor and the addition of slow to a few powers if need be.

 

On the whole the tweaks here are sort of minor but I feel they snowball into something more meaningful when you look at the grand scheme!

 

-Galaxy Brain

Idk how I feel about your suggestions.  I currently have an ice/ice tanker who farms cold, S/L, and fire and is a beast.  The end drain on enemies is massive and is your biggest debuff.  If you buff me anymore, I will run away with the game...  I am not joking.  Energy Absorption, for me, already drains all enemies around me to almost ZERO end.  That effectively debuffs their recharge as well since when they have zero end, they can't use powers.  You are completely ignoring how powerful chilling embrace is.  That power reduces all incoming damage by 14%, AND can be slotted with taunt and a proc.  You want to buff it, MORE??!  Really?!  Dude, 14% means instead of needing to be 90% resist, you only need to be 76% to be hard-capped with Chilling Embrace on.  That is OP.  Icicles does a LOT of damage, btw.  Yes, I know it is lethal, but it does a lot more than similar toggles.  

 

Maybe I am unique in my Ice/Ice tankers abilities, idk, but I find him extremely powerful.  A little more damage would make him on par with a fire/spines brute.  Right now, he is a minute behind in farming.  I am all for that, but what you are asking would make him ridiculously powerful.  I can run you through a farm and you can see for yourself, if you wish...

[Replacement]

21 minutes ago, Quindorrian said:

Idk how I feel about your suggestions.  I currently have an ice/ice tanker who farms cold, S/L, and fire and is a beast.  The end drain on enemies is massive and is your biggest debuff.  If you buff me anymore, I will run away with the game...  I am not joking.  Energy Absorption, for me, already drains all enemies around me to almost ZERO end.  That effectively debuffs their recharge as well since when they have zero end, they can't use powers.  You are completely ignoring how powerful chilling embrace is.  That power reduces all incoming damage by 14%, AND can be slotted with taunt and a proc.  You want to buff it, MORE??!  Really?!  Dude, 14% means instead of needing to be 90% resist, you only need to be 76% to be hard-capped with Chilling Embrace on.  That is OP.  Icicles does a LOT of damage, btw.  Yes, I know it is lethal, but it does a lot more than similar toggles.  

 

Maybe I am unique in my Ice/Ice tankers abilities, idk, but I find him extremely powerful.  A little more damage would make him on par with a fire/spines brute.  Right now, he is a minute behind in farming.  I am all for that, but what you are asking would make him ridiculously powerful.  I can run you through a farm and you can see for yourself, if you wish...

First off, that hard cap doesn't work the way you are implying, here (you are probably talking about effective DR here, but I still want to clarify).  You can actually combine 90% resist + -14% damage for a total reduction of incoming damage of 91.4%.

100 damage * .86 = 86 damage (14% damage penalty)

86 damage *.1 = 8.6 damage (90% resist)

 

Ok, so that out of the way, this isn't nearly as large as you are making it out to be.  

 

Let's say you're fighting a mob that is +4 to you.  You are now only debuffing their damage by 6.72% (purple patch).  Let's say they also have 30% damage resist.  Damage resist resists damage debuffs if this isn't flagged irresistable, so now you're down to -4.7% damage.  Your recharge numbers will be similarly reduced and come with the caveat that -Recharge slows do nothing to lower incoming damage until all of their attacks are on cooldown (by which point, the only things that are alive are likely resisting large portions of CE's debuffs).

 

EDIT: similar effects with Energy Absorption's Endurance sapping.  You're draining, at most, 75-80 end/cast (more likely 70 unless you're way over ED), and I think that will be affected by purple patch as well.  I think a great deal of your success here is the farming environment.  You likely have incarnate level shifts pushing the enemy level down (and thus the purple patch), and keeping you target-saturated enough that you can reasonably expect a full strength EA every 12-20 seconds.  This goes hand-in-hand with the expectation that many of the crowding bodies around you will be alive for two Energy Absorptions. 

 

In standard missions, I expect a build like you're talking about will perform great, but the question becomes how does it compare to other sets in standard content?  Basic stuff like not being frustrated in a radio mission, leveling, fighting AVs, etc.  The sense I have has been "Ice Armor is a bit... patchy."

 

--

 

I like the changes but don't think Icicles needs a slow aura.  I think it would be better to keep that as CE's thing and, if needed, buff the Slow numbers in Energy Absorption instead (though tbh, if this went to testing, the entire debuff on EA would be the first thing axed as well).

Edited January 5, 2021 by Replacement

[BrandX]

Why not just allow Frozen Armor to accept Resistance Sets?

[tristanLV]

Kind of a side note to this topic.. should there be a discussion about adding more cold damage mobs to the game? Aside from the Winter Event, I can't think of any enemies in the game that make you really feel cold damage compared to other non-smashing/lethal damage types (especially psionic and toxic). This makes a set like Rad Armor feel more powerful than it should, as its biggest weakness is absent in most of the game. Not sure how you would go about this though.. I guess you'd either have to add cold damage to all enemy groups or create a new cold-based enemy group.

[Quindorrian]

52 minutes ago, Replacement said:

First off, that hard cap doesn't work the way you are implying, here (you are probably talking about effective DR here, but I still want to clarify).  You can actually combine 90% resist + -14% damage for a total reduction of incoming damage of 91.4%.

100 damage * .86 = 86 damage (14% damage penalty)

86 damage *.1 = 8.6 damage (90% resist)

 

Ok, so that out of the way, this isn't nearly as large as you are making it out to be.  

 

Let's say you're fighting a mob that is +4 to you.  You are now only debuffing their damage by 6.72% (purple patch).  Let's say they also have 30% damage resist.  Damage resist resists damage debuffs if this isn't flagged irresistable, so now you're down to -4.7% damage.  Your recharge numbers will be similarly reduced and come with the caveat that -Recharge slows do nothing to lower incoming damage until all of their attacks are on cooldown (by which point, the only things that are alive are likely resisting large portions of CE's debuffs).

 

EDIT: similar effects with Energy Absorption's Endurance sapping.  You're draining, at most, 75-80 end/cast (more likely 70 unless you're way over ED), and I think that will be affected by purple patch as well.  I think a great deal of your success here is the farming environment.  You likely have incarnate level shifts pushing the enemy level down (and thus the purple patch), and keeping you target-saturated enough that you can reasonably expect a full strength EA every 12-20 seconds.  This goes hand-in-hand with the expectation that many of the crowding bodies around you will be alive for two Energy Absorptions. 

 

In standard missions, I expect a build like you're talking about will perform great, but the question becomes how does it compare to other sets in standard content?  Basic stuff like not being frustrated in a radio mission, leveling, fighting AVs, etc.  The sense I have has been "Ice Armor is a bit... patchy."

 

--

 

I like the changes but don't think Icicles needs a slow aura.  I think it would be better to keep that as CE's thing and, if needed, buff the Slow numbers in Energy Absorption instead (though tbh, if this went to testing, the entire debuff on EA would be the first thing axed as well).

Yeah, your math is not quite correct (my initial math wasn't correct either).  Had to do a little research to confirm this.  Still, Chilling Embrace is SUBSTANTIALLY powerful.  The way the power works is it actually adds a damage debuff to all enemies in its aura.  So, yes, it isn't additive to your own resistance, exactly, but it is almost as good.  For example, if you have a S/L resist of 76%, and the incoming damage of an attack would normally be 100, it will reduce the enemies attack to 86 damage S/L.  Then, 76% resistance is applied to that 86.  So, the final received damage is 20.64.  If it were additive, it would be 10 damage.  So, it reduced the damage by roughly 4 damage, which is 20% of the damage you would have taken (24 damage).  

 

Regarding your other comments, there are some fair points.  I spend most of my time in level 50 content.  When I do low-level content, I don't feel quite as strong, but I also have a lot of purple ATO sets that don't apply at low levels.  

[Galaxy Brain]

@Quindorrian, Chilling Embrace is strong but not incredibly strong. For reference, Darkest Night on a Tanker has -30% damage on an AoE as well as -15% ToHit and that's free to take right now from the patron pools. 

 

Also, taking the base set into account it's not a massive increase as Ice does not naturally have strong resists outside of Cold damage, which is another reason I felt the need to do some tweaks. Anything not in debuff range still will hit you for (full damage) if able so there is still a dynamic there, but -Damage is a unique property that I feel like is not explored too much and would be helpful for team content as well for any stray hits or AoEs that may come at your allies.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Alternatively, what about tweaking down the Lethal Damage in Icicles very slightly, but adding Cold Damage to Chilling Embrace?

 

Like the thoughts about allowing for more Resistance to be slotted, but I find that I usually have enough reason to 6-Slot my Defensive Powers with just Defense Sets, so I'm not sure I would benefit at all from that particular part of the proposal.  Not against it, either.

 

And really now, @Galaxy Brain!  How did you forget Wet Ice?

I've heard the removal of Defense Slotting from that Power was done by the Legacy Devs back in the day to "save players from a noob trap," since Wet Ice's Defenses are so microscopic that no amount of Enhancements could make a worthwhile impact in the Power's numbers.

BUT . . . IO Sets are a thing now.  Could we not allow Defense IO Sets without allowing regular Defense Enhancements?   Is that not a possibility?   I think it would open a lot of potential in the Set for high-end Builds!  I'd even opt to wholeheartedly accept your Resistance in Frozen Armour suggestion if I could just move my Defense Set down to Wet Ice instead.

[Haijinx]

I think Ice needs higher Defense Numbers.  As it is The Tanker scale Ice is not really a lot better than Brute Scale Energy Aura 

 

And Energy Aura was based on Ice >.< 

 

Maybe not as good AS Energy Aura of course.  Because Ice has other things going on.  But better than where it is.   Something to make them more comparable before IO sets. 

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think Ice needs higher Defense Numbers.  As it is The Tanker scale Ice is not really a lot better than Brute Scale Energy Aura 

 

And Energy Aura was based on Ice >.< 

 

Maybe not as good AS Energy Aura of course.  Because Ice has other things going on.  But better than where it is.   Something to make them more comparable before IO sets. 

The big thing is getting it a little more consistent for me - which is why I like this proposal. Like, primarily a defense set, but no defense to ice (which is... In the name) or fire (an important damage type)?  I think you get those squared away before trying to increase defense.

 

For the record, I still oppose allowing wet ice to take defense enhancements without some other changes to the power.

[Parabola]

I like the idea of playing up the 'armour set that debuffs' angle of ice armour. Might there be mileage in making some or all of chilling embrace unresistable to help out against the purple patch? Less cold res and more fire res seems very sensible, might there also be a way of throwing it a bone against psi somehow? Psi tends to be from ranged sources so debuffs aren't going to help much there. Maybe some psi defence in wet ice which would provide an excuse to open it for defence sets at the same time?

[Gobbledigook]

I think Hibernate should be changed more. 

 

It is an emergency skill only and if the set is buffed will become even less useful and possible make the set overpowered.

 

Doing zero damage sucks.

 

Instead it could be a big absorb buff as you layer yourself in more protective ice. It could also emit a very potent slow/recharge debuff to enemies within 10ft, grinding them to a halt for 10 seconds and even have a low chance of a mag 3-4 hold.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[golstat2003]

Some of these ideas for ice an intriguing. I will say it needs something. I had an ice armor tanker on live, but pretty much didn't bother to roll one here. I might change my mind if these changes were made.

[Galaxy Brain]

5 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

I think Hibernate should be changed more. 

 

It is an emergency skill only and if the set is buffed will become even less useful and possible make the set overpowered.

 

Doing zero damage sucks.

 

Instead it could be a big absorb buff as you layer yourself in more protective ice. It could also emit a very potent slow/recharge debuff to enemies within 10ft, grinding them to a halt for 10 seconds and even have a low chance of a mag 3-4 hold.

 

 

The last bit with the harsh debuff is what I was going for. Icy Bastion exists and is probably just better Hibernate, but the power is already super cemented for Ice Armor on Tanks/Brutes and is a cool idea that just needs a little somethin somethin...

 

Heck, even if it froze you + all enemies around you and left them incredibly slowed (Everyone hibernates!) it could be a neat addition.

[Darkneblade]

Maybe merge icicles with chilling embrace to make room for something else? turning icicles into cold damage is first start.