Do Dominators Need a Buff?

[Rejolt]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

I can only support this in specific ways:

• There are a handful of sets (e.g. Fear, Taunt) that have neither PVP or Very Rare enhancement sets that could use some love.
• Some specific ATO pieces are lackluster, or only have the ability to be slotted in relative few powers (ehem, Masterminds)

Specifically for Dominators, I don't think this request scales particularly well, because (generally):

1. Dominators want Global +Recharge before all else, and (after LotG) many-piece set bonuses are key to perma-domination... so in general there aren't going to be many places to put %procs.
2. Many %procs are extra control effects... which Dominators don't really need.

Of course I am ignoring %damage procs, but again... because of the chasing of set bonuses do we really need more %damage? A pure Hold already has the option to slot seven different %procs!

My idea was a Summer  Set of IOs that feature Defense, Resistance, Heal, Slows and Pet Damage.

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Rejolt said:

My idea was a Summer  Set of IOs that feature Defense, Resistance, Heal, Slows and Pet Damage.

But that doesn't really only belong in the Dominator wish list then.  Those other typed powers don't have purple or winter sets for a reason.  They already have a plethora of great uniques, it'd be hard to outdo those with a whole new batch of enhancements.  I mean I wouldn't flat out say no to new sets but lets not kid around that defense, resist and heals don't already have some fine IO's, just because they're not colored purple doesn't mean they don't act like purples.  

 

Getting back to doms I'd venture to say they have it real good in terms of what they can slot.  Yes it's a slot starved AT but there's so many winter and attack sets you can slot plus controls have a slew of purple sets.  Ascendancy of the Dominator is a great ATO set as well, the only thing that requires some attention is the lackluster second ATO set.  Other than that in terms of what doms can use for enhancements they are in the best position to make use of everything.  

[oedipus_tex]

IMO the limitation with the Dominator ATO sets is they go in Control powers instead of attacks. For most characters there are no more than one or two powers you could slot them in.

 

One thing that may be a surprise is that as an archetype Dominators actually have low access to control powers outside the actual control set. Everything in the class is balanced around the possibility of Domination mode being active. So there are no Hold powers in the APPs, and in all of the Assault sets only the one Hold in Seismic Smash, which does nerfed Hold stacking in Domination mode. This is partly why the class benefits so much from perma-domination and recharge in general. 

[Nic Mercy]

On 1/31/2021 at 12:56 AM, Heraclea said:

I played one to 50, made a good concept, spent the inf and merits to get her to perma-dom, and hardly ever log in to the character.  Perma-dom is too nervous and fussy for my style.  A moment's inattention and you blew it and are back to zero.  Without perma-dom the character is a weaker version of a controller with worse endurance issues.  I do not enjoy the AT and have no desire to roll another.

My answer to that issue of "inattention" was to get permadom without Hasten and just put Domination on autofire. It takes about 130% global recharge to do it, and it can be done while still having softcapped defenses so it's not bad. I build all my doms that way now and skip Hasten entirely. I know that may sound like blasphemy to some, but it works well for me. As long as I don't get hit with a ton of -recharge debuffs I'm good.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Nic Mercy

[twozerofoxtrot]

Did this too, really pleased with the result.

 

Basically plays like a Blapper with an AoE hold and pets.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by twozerofoxtrot
a word.

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 hours ago, Mezmera said:

What you mean like be a brute? 

 

The way I read the suggestion was that it would still play to increased Mez Magnitude/Mez Protection, but not have an on/off cycle. So it would build as you do damage (as it already does), but would increase your mez magnitude and mez protection across a scale as you reached certain thresholds. While this leaves out the full End bar on Domination activation, it might be a fair trade if the scaling is favorable. Or just add scaling +end recovery to the effect as well.

 

All of this fits neatly in line with the original flavor text for the power: 

Quote

"Nothing delights a Dominator more than inflicting pain. When a Dominator attacks, his sadistic nature grows."

 

I'm sorry but your response came across as needlessly sarcastic without trying to honestly weigh the merit of the suggestion.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by twozerofoxtrot
clarified verbiage

[JnEricsonx]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO the limitation with the Dominator ATO sets is they go in Control powers instead of attacks. For most characters there are no more than one or two powers you could slot them in.

 

One thing that may be a surprise is that as an archetype Dominators actually have low access to control powers outside the actual control set. Everything in the class is balanced around the possibility of Domination mode being active. So there are no Hold powers in the APPs, and in all of the Assault sets only the one Hold in Seismic Smash, which does nerfed Hold stacking in Domination mode. This is partly why the class benefits so much from perma-domination and recharge in general. 

Same thing with VEATS, as well.  I so wanted my Widow and when I make her, the Fortunata to have the Ghost Widow hold, moreso the Fortunata because she's a semi-clone.

[CaptTastic]

Reading this thread it appears many are suggesting Dominators are changed simply because they don’t personally like playing them. I find that odd. I don’t like Masterminds, the mindset required to play them well just isn’t in me, but fair play to the many people who love playing their MMs. That’s their AT and I hope they have a blast playing it. 
 

Dominators will never be hugely popular. Damage is popular, stacks of it. Cold, raw, unthinking, simple hack, slash, and blast damage. In fact with Homecoming I’d say players gorge on damage more than ever before. Dominators are much more of a finesse AT though in my experience. While Brutes, Scrappers, Blasters etc have one hammer and one job, Dominators come with a whole toolkit and playing them well is all about selecting, quickly, the right tool for the right situation. There are no shortcuts to getting to that stage either. It’s all about investment of time and accumulation of experience. I wish I played my Dom better, but I’ve not put the time in and scaled the steeper learning curve so I don’t. Same applies to VEATS and my Warshade btw. 
 

Can Dominators be improved? Absolutely. 100% they can. Small changes like trying to address the endurance issues would go a long way. Every AT could be improved though too IMO. But the biggest way to improve Dominators would be to improve Dominator players. It’s not a pick-up-and-play AT, it’s not a joyous blunt instrument designed solely for destruction. Way I see it, Dominators need love, but it’s their players they need to show them the love, not the Devs, because that’s the only way to put in enough time to learn them properly. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by CaptTastic

[blue4333]

To add more about my initial post, I'm completely happy with the current state of Domination and the mini-achievement of attaining enough recharge of Domination. Also to the point of posts that say its more on the player than the archetype, I have a Vet Level 87 Mind/Energy Dominator as my "main". Throughout my experience playing him, I do feel a lack of identity and also impact in a team.

 

Correct if I'm wrong but I do believe that the purpose of a Dominator is to lock down enemies and then pew pew them to death. But the thing is, compared to the other ATs in the game (e.g. Controllers, Blasters, VEATS), the role of a Dominator seems trivialized. Controllers are able to lock down foes but also provide a force multiplier to teams while Fortunatas are able to do the same thing albeit without Domination. Even certain secondary sets for Blasters provide soft if not outright hard control.

 

What am I asking is if Dominators need a buff for the AT itself to find its value proposition for both players to pick the AT for a team  or a new character. I feel that Dominators need more OOMPH right now. Not sure if it's to add more beneficial effects to Domination or adding a scaling damage increase to the Domination bar.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, CaptTastic said:

Reading this thread it appears many are suggesting Dominators are changed simply because they don’t personally like playing them. I find that odd.

Well written. I'm even more perplexed by posts along the lines of "I mostly play Dominators but I wish they were more like other ATs".

[Heraclea]

7 hours ago, CaptTastic said:

Reading this thread it appears many are suggesting Dominators are changed simply because they don’t personally like playing them.

That's part of it, but not the whole story.  The worst thing about the AT is that it feels tailored to be a level 50 only thing, the same issue I had with Titan Weapons.  Reliance on Domination is the big thing but not the only thing.  When Penny Yin or even Silver Mantis are the weeklies I don't even consider the character.  So she's still an asset sink and not a producer.  The same is not true of my poison/dark defender, another AT I struggled with.  She is as useful at leve 15 as at level 50 and is an asset rather than a liability on my roster.  I also struggle a bit with masterminds, but that's mostly a matter of choosing material that plays to their strengths, and staying out of Sharkhead.  

[Slithershot]

22 hours ago, Mezmera said:

What you mean like be a brute?  How about once the target is completely controlled and under 50% health we do double damage to the target.  Or maybe every so often our attacks crit for double damage, well that'd be awesome but still.  So you'd just have doms revamped into the ability of another AT?  Such variety.  

No, I mean like the domination buff works as fury does. With scaling numbers as the bar goes up and down. 

 

Thanks for being condescending though ❤️ 

[Slithershot]

10 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

The way I read the suggestion was that it would still play to increased Mez Magnitude/Mez Protection, but not have an on/off cycle. So it would build as you do damage (as it already does), but would increase your mez magnitude and mez protection across a scale as you reached certain thresholds. While this leaves out the full End bar on Domination activation, it might be a fair trade if the scaling is favorable. Or just add scaling +end recovery to the effect as well.

 

All of this fits neatly in line with the original flavor text for the power: 

 

I'm sorry but your response came across as needlessly sarcastic without trying to honestly weigh the merit of the suggestion.

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. Thank you 🙂

[GM Kaiju]

Stop the jabs and snarky comments folks or this thread will be locked.

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

Well written. I'm even more perplexed by posts along the lines of "I mostly play Dominators but I wish they were more like other ATs".

 

I mostly play Dominators, but I wish they played differently. 🤪

[Runewritten]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

Well written. I'm even more perplexed by posts along the lines of "I mostly play Dominators but I wish they were more like other ATs".

What's getting me is how many seem to love dominators not because of the way they play, but for the IO build metagame of reaching permadom.
To me, it seems like if your favorite part of the AT is how much INF and messing around in Mids' it takes to overcome their deficiency, that's so glaring that you're spending INF and messing around in Mids to overcome said deficiency, then... the AT needs work.

[Bill Z Bubba]

32 minutes ago, Runewritten said:

What's getting me is how many seem to love dominators not because of the way they play, but for the IO build metagame of reaching permadom.
To me, it seems like if your favorite part of the AT is how much INF and messing around in Mids' it takes to overcome their deficiency, that's so glaring that you're spending INF and messing around in Mids to overcome said deficiency, then... the AT needs work.

To be fair, that's how every single endgame build is designed regardless of AT.

[BZRKR]

32 minutes ago, Runewritten said:

What's getting me is how many seem to love dominators not because of the way they play, but for the IO build metagame of reaching permadom.

How about both? I kind of think of my Dominator as a sportscar that I like driving as much as I like washing it on a sunny summer day.

[CaptTastic]

5 hours ago, Heraclea said:

That's part of it, but not the whole story.  The worst thing about the AT is that it feels tailored to be a level 50 only thing, the same issue I had with Titan Weapons.  Reliance on Domination is the big thing but not the only thing.  When Penny Yin or even Silver Mantis are the weeklies I don't even consider the character.  So she's still an asset sink and not a producer.  The same is not true of my poison/dark defender, another AT I struggled with.  She is as useful at leve 15 as at level 50 and is an asset rather than a liability on my roster.  I also struggle a bit with masterminds, but that's mostly a matter of choosing material that plays to their strengths, and staying out of Sharkhead.  

I think Doms don’t exemplar well, admittedly, because the attack powers that make a real difference are back loaded. A good tweak would be to give them a Blaze or Bitter Ice Blast or whatever much earlier, perhaps in the mid-20s. 
 

I didn’t notice it too much when I was levelling as I took the powers I could, but my Doms’ end-game build, like most people’s, respecced the vast majority of the early attacks out because of the recharge that comes with chasing perma-Dom. 
 

Then again, maybe there should be a trade-off like that for perma-Dom? 
 

I do though think we are still in the realm of minor tweaks rather than major surgery. 

[Effusion]

19 minutes ago, CaptTastic said:

I think Doms don’t exemplar well, admittedly, because the attack powers that make a real difference are back loaded. A good tweak would be to give them a Blaze or Bitter Ice Blast or whatever much earlier, perhaps in the mid-20s. 
 

I didn’t notice it too much when I was levelling as I took the powers I could, but my Doms’ end-game build, like most people’s, respecced the vast majority of the early attacks out because of the recharge that comes with chasing perma-Dom. 
 

Then again, maybe there should be a trade-off like that for perma-Dom? 
 

I do though think we are still in the realm of minor tweaks rather than major surgery. 

That's also because there are few assault powers that have a reason to be used other than to fill in a rotation. Assault sets are pretty boring in that regard, especially when you consider how similar they all are.

[Mezmera]

6 hours ago, Heraclea said:

That's part of it, but not the whole story.  The worst thing about the AT is that it feels tailored to be a level 50 only thing, the same issue I had with Titan Weapons.  Reliance on Domination is the big thing but not the only thing.  When Penny Yin or even Silver Mantis are the weeklies I don't even consider the character.  So she's still an asset sink and not a producer.  The same is not true of my poison/dark defender, another AT I struggled with.  She is as useful at leve 15 as at level 50 and is an asset rather than a liability on my roster.  I also struggle a bit with masterminds, but that's mostly a matter of choosing material that plays to their strengths, and staying out of Sharkhead.  

Whenever I create a dominator once I reach level 32 I stop what I'm doing and go build in my IO's.  You don't need to be level 50 to be permadom.  Heck my doms are set for perma in the low 20s if they ever exemp.  Someone experienced at playing them doesn't even need to be perma to be big time influential on the team, permadom just pushes you to the front of the team.  It's not like it's expensive to do so either, I can scrape some money from a 50 or two.  

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, Pizzamurai said:

No, I mean like the domination buff works as fury does. With scaling numbers as the bar goes up and down. 

 

Thanks for being condescending though ❤️ 

But we have brutes that have that same built in mechanism albeit for damage then there's blasters defiance.  Now lets add doms to that?  I'm sorry I just can't comprehend why everyone wants to meld into one AT, there's others to play that'd seem to suit what you're looking for more.  Domination is fantastic as it is, more variety across AT's please not less.  

[Mezmera]

22 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO the limitation with the Dominator ATO sets is they go in Control powers instead of attacks. For most characters there are no more than one or two powers you could slot them in.

 

One thing that may be a surprise is that as an archetype Dominators actually have low access to control powers outside the actual control set. Everything in the class is balanced around the possibility of Domination mode being active. So there are no Hold powers in the APPs, and in all of the Assault sets only the one Hold in Seismic Smash, which does nerfed Hold stacking in Domination mode. This is partly why the class benefits so much from perma-domination and recharge in general. 

Yeah doms being a bit more attack oriented I can see where if they could leave Ascendancy as it is for the control side but revamp the Fiery Orb set to be able to slot into attacks that'd be a novel idea.  I don't play controllers but to be fair then to them you'd probably need to make it so one of their ATO sets can slot into their secondary too.

[oedipus_tex]

16 hours ago, CaptTastic said:

Reading this thread it appears many are suggesting Dominators are changed simply because they don’t personally like playing them. I find that odd. I don’t like Masterminds, the mindset required to play them well just isn’t in me, but fair play to the many people who love playing their MMs. That’s their AT and I hope they have a blast playing it. 

 

I think part of it can be explained by how people view the revived CoX in different ways:

• Some people see it as a straightforward revival of the original game
• Some people see it as an opportunity to build an entirely new ruleset or sequel in the same way D&D transitioned from V2 to V3 to V4 and so on
• Some people see it as base game receiving an "expansion pack" that extends but does not totally replace the original ruleset

 

In Dungeons and Dragons I mostly played Clerics through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition, and also played that class in MUDs and MOOs that were loosely based on those rules. There's a concept of "Cleric-ness" that follows from ruleset to ruleset even though the exact rules don't apply in each case, and the nature of the challenges/adventures and gear you can find varies wildly. Each CoX revival server has to make its own decisions about how to interpret "Dominator-ness"... the Homecoming team has already started this by reinterpreting the DPA of the Assault sets and making some other changes, like converting the Knockback protection in the AoE immobilizes into Knockback resistance.

Speaking purely for myself, I am a player who plays on a few servers and who also has his own bin engine where I can build my own powers and sets. Right now I'm in the middle of ____________ Control, which, if it feels complete enough, I will eventually publish to Ouro dev for servers to pick up and install if they think it fills a niche they'd like to add for the class. Doing this requires sketching some idea of "Dominator-ness" and what that means across the gamut of servers, thinking about what is over or underpowered in context, and writing some guidelines for potential host servers on how the powerset relates to the existing Control sets, the overall game, and any options they might want to tweak. For me, the question of whether Dominators need a "buff" is open ended. It depends a lot on what you think "Dominator" means and whether you view a particular server's project as a purist revival, an ambitious sequel, or something in between.

[Grouchybeast]

9 hours ago, Heraclea said:

That's part of it, but not the whole story.  The worst thing about the AT is that it feels tailored to be a level 50 only thing,

To be fair, while IOs and permadom are very nice to have, I've also had good experiences with Doms at low levels, especially in Praetoria.  The mix of control and damage makes it feels safe, and Domination is excellent even when it isn't perma,