Can We Please Pin a Thread with Decent Powerset Pairs?

[Herotu]

Can We Please Pin a Thread with Decent Powerset Pairs?

 

I know it'll vary over time as the devs buff/nerf stuff - we can unpin it and put a new thread with decent builds / ones to avoid when that happens.

 

As someone who mained Archery/Devices blaster in Live I am very anxious about making a gimped character and often have decision paralysis when it comes to character creation because of this.

 

I'd love a quick reference that says "that's a no-go" or "sure, give that a try" for each of the pairs.

 

This goes for every archtype, so this might be the wrong forum for the post.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Herotu

[Bleuz]

Problem is any pairing works if done right. 

 

Unless your looking for more the top 5-10 meta in patch X. Won't really help. 

 

Someone tried to start a guide to guides for each class. But with not many up to date ones made. It didn't really take off. 

 

I would rather see a surge in guides on each main and 2ndarys or on pairing. Look at MM and the /dark guide pinned there. 

 

If I had alot more knowledge(and could ever pick a main and play it long enough) I would happily make one.

[Scofflaw]

Good players find ways to win regardless of powersets.

 

Bad players find ways to lose regardless of powersets.

 

Pin that.

[Herotu]

7 hours ago, Scofflaw said:

Good players find ways to win regardless of powersets.

 

Bad players find ways to lose regardless of powersets.

 

Pin that.

Keep your platitudes, I'd rather address the topic at hand.

 

This is about avoiding awful combinations - I'm not interested in winning or losing or being good or bad. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Herotu

[Coyote]

27 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Keep your platitudes, I'd rather address the topic at hand.

 

This is about avoiding awful combinations - I'm not interested in winning or losing or being good or bad. 

 

But that wasn't what you asked for earlier. It sounded like a "what is an auto-driving combination of powersets that can't go bad". If you just asked which combinations of sets kind of work against each other, you'd probably get a much bigger response.

 

And even then it would be contingent upon builds and playstyle... Energy/Electric is completely antagonistic within the combinations due to having Knockback-oriented primary paired with a melee-oriented secondary. And then you add in Knockback converters into the primary attacks, and everything that the character does is Knockdown and can be used in melee, and the pairing actually becomes worth running.

[Herotu]

Just now, Coyote said:

 

But that wasn't what you asked for earlier. It sounded like a "what is an auto-driving combination of powersets that can't go bad". If you just asked which combinations of sets kind of work against each other, you'd probably get a much bigger response.

 

And even then it would be contingent upon builds and playstyle... Energy/Electric is completely antagonistic within the combinations due to having Knockback-oriented primary paired with a melee-oriented secondary. And then you add in Knockback converters into the primary attacks, and everything that the character does is Knockdown and can be used in melee, and the pairing actually becomes worth running.

Okay, we can just add a note saying "only <whatever> playstyle" if it can only be used in a specific playstyle. 

[SwitchFade]

Sure.

 

Here...

 

Any/any

 

Pin away 🤪

[oldskool]

So the idea is to have a "go" and "no-go" for say.... Archery compared against 14 separate Blaster secondary sets.  Then that process repeated again for Assault Rifle, Beam Rifle, and so on?  

That's an awful lot of combinations and seems like a pretty big ask.  There are likely FAR easier ways to handle this.  

1) Does this combo even sound fun?  "That's a go"
2) Does this combo not fit my interests?  "That's a no-go"

3) Has anyone played?  -- Search for each power primary and secondary *individually* vs as pairs.  
4) Make comparisons of generalization from other searches. (I.e., how often do certain sets come up as "Blapper-friendly" vs "ranged only").   

 

In the case of #3, it can be real frustrating when search-fu doesn't give you results when you look for a Sentinel build for Archery/Ice Armor or Assault Rifle/Fiery Aura.  This would be because there are likely less than 5 people in all of HC that play that combo.  A rather small subset of players actually post here.  However, if you search for just X primary and then Y secondary you're far more likely to get actual answers.  

The initial posting makes a call back how Archery/Devices was... on Live.  Devices here isn't Devices from live.  Archery too has experienced a change even if it was only having a more reliable Ranged Shot.  If the idea is that the combo is "gimp" because of its lethal damage type, then this too starts giving out some answers.  Look at elemental damage sets.  What isn't resisted that much?  Fire?  What are people's opinion on Fire?  What are people's opinions on Devices?  Hmm..  I think these two can work.  

I think the decision paralysis (and you aren't alone there) is a self-inflicted monster.  Plenty of folks aren't interested in investing heavily into a character that will "suck".  Unfortunately, this metric is near impossible to make work in CoH due to sliding difficulty as well as solo vs grouping.  

What is gimp?  Is it a character that only performs well at +4/x8?  Is it a character that can't group?  What is the parameter that defines this metric for which "go" and "no-go" has any value outside those with decision paralysis?  

Those are important things to consider because you may get responses like X primary and Y secondary are fantastic from players that love to solo on +2/x5.  However, if you're not being clear on your expectations you may end up disappointed.  

I'd love to see more guides myself, but after a point I think they become irrelevant.  I much prefer to talk pairings on case-by-case basis because guides often have a degree of bias.  A bias that may not create a truly helpful answer.  Some guides have been incredibly thorough and well written.  Those are often few and far between. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by oldskool
Sentinel is mentioned because this kind of idea happens a LOT in that subforum. There are less than a handful of folks that actively answer questions (I'm one of them). So I get the idea and the frustrations. I've seen it a lot.

[nihilii]

Just about every powerset has received enough direct and indirect buffs since Live. To roll a gimped combination almost requires dedicated effort. For Blasters what would this look like? Almost every primary is good. AR might be at the bottom. And as for secondaries, they're all pretty awesome now... But maybe you can tie AR/ with /Fire, to combine a low damage primary that wants cone range with a high damage primary that wants melee and PBAoE range.

 

This AR/Fire would still be a powerful character perfectly capable of soloing all solo content and then some, mind you. It wouldn't perform nearly as well as most other combos. And yet even if you pitted it against, say, a Fire/Elec, which is one of the most powerful combos... The AR/Fire played by a good player would outperform the Fire/Elec played by an average player.

[Grindingsucks]

Sentinels of most any powerset combo are often considered to be the most disadvantaged AT.  You can still solo +4/8 with a decently well built Sentinel, though.  It's really hard to get a gimp character in the current iteration of the game.

 

Some of the squishier AT's (Controllers, Defenders and the like) may be more challenging to solo, but I doubt that that's much different from what you were used to during live (I'm assuming here, I never played during live, myself).

 

If you want to know what the most potent powersets are, ask around on the Homecoming discord channels for whatever AT's you normally like to play.  You'll get plenty of solid advice from seasoned players, I have no doubt.

[Nemu]

My stuff is pretty decent. Pin me!

 

No nudes tho.

 

👀

[Herotu]

Some great posts so far, thanks.

 

...

15 hours ago, nihilii said:

, a Fire/Elec, which is one of the most powerful combos...

This is the nugget of information that I (and probably many others) just have no knowledge of. It'd be great to have a list of ones that are KNOWN to be powerful, in order to guarantee avoidance of the weak. We don't have to list every combo, just, "old reliables".

Edited February 19, 2021 by Herotu

[Nemu]

It's not that powerful if you skip all the melee stuff as I see many posters do.

 

In general if you work against the build's strengths and pigeonhole blasters into the "pure ranged" playstyle you will fall short of the performance that @nihiliiand other posters benchmark for fire/elec and other combos.

 

If you are the type of blaster who subscribes to the "I'm gonna wait for tank to get aggro and shoot stuff from range because I am so squishy, and I'm going to skip most of the powers from my secondary and play with half a build" mentality you will NEVER reach the performance of the benchmarks referenced here.

 

Copying builds is easy, learning how to play takes a little bit of effort. It requires some players to step outside their comfort zone but as with all things - if you don't put in the effort you don't reap the rewards.

[oldskool]

7 minutes ago, Nemu said:

It's not that powerful if you skip all the melee stuff as I see many posters do.

 

In general if you work against the build's strengths and pigeonhole blasters into the "pure ranged" playstyle you will fall short of the performance that @nihiliiand other posters benchmark for fire/elec and other combos.

 

If you are the type of blaster who subscribes to the "I'm gonna wait for tank to get aggro and shoot stuff from range because I am so squishy, and I'm going to skip most of the powers from my secondary and play with half a build" mentality you will NEVER reach the performance of the benchmarks referenced here.

 

Copying builds is easy, learning how to play takes a little bit of effort. It requires some players to step outside their comfort zone but as with all things - if you don't put in the effort you don't reap the rewards.

This is the kind of words of wisdom statement that the "like" feature needs a red heart of "love".  

The build choices, especially for a Blaster, can create a very real question of "what's the point?".  What I mean here is if the build is going to focus solely on doing ranged pew-pew, then there is a chance to look at other ranged ATs for their own merits.  This could lead a player into discovering that playing a Defender within that conceptual space is actually a really freaking good choice.  

This also showcases something where some ATs genuinely have a better place with certain playstyles.  Like Dual Pistols on Blasters can feel pretty 'meh' if your goal is to just sit back and pew-pew.  However, if you break that comfort zone and Blap? ....Holy crap it can be an amazing set and even more so with a secondary that supports it.  The lack of a snipe doesn't feel nearly as bad when you focus on sustained damage vs burst damage.  However, on a Defender the Dual Pistols power set offers superior utility and a ton of synergy with debuff support sets.  Corruptors also benefit from this but the numbers are slightly less.  That just opens up a series of question about what is important to the user for their playstyle goals.  There isn't a wrong answer here. 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

Some great posts so far, thanks.

 

...

This is the nugget of information that I (and probably many others) just have no knowledge of. It'd be great to have a list of ones that are KNOWN to be powerful, in order to guarantee avoidance of the weak. We don't have to list every combo, just, "old reliables".

Uh, any/any is the answer. Confused facing the answer doesn't change it, and anyone thinking that "fire/elec" outperforms water/bio or ice/atomic or elec/temp or ANYTHING... Is just limited by... Drumroll.... Operator Error 🤪

 

If you really play a blaster, all the sets are good, and all of them can be combined.

 

There's maybe a 5% spread, really, anything can be top tier. It's all about how you use it... No offense, but this is a thread now seeking an answer to a question that already has an answer.

 

Unless the desire is "which set combo requires least amount of effort, tactical use and/or has "win" button?" In which case, the answer is "none/none"

Edited February 19, 2021 by SwitchFade

[PainX]

11 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Uh, any/any is the answer. Confused facing the answer doesn't change it, and anyone thinking that "fire/elec" outperforms water/bio or ice/atomic or elec/temp or ANYTHING... Is just limited by... Drumroll.... Operator Error 🤪

 

If you really play a blaster, all the sets are good, and all of them can be combined.

 

There's maybe a 5% spread, really, anything can be top tier. It's all about how you use it... No offense, but this is a thread now seeking an answer to a question that already has an answer.

 

Unless the desire is "which set combo requires least amount of effort, tactical use and/or has "win" button?" In which case, the answer is "none/none"

so anything can be just as high damage as a top tier fire blaster uhmm okay 

[Hjarki]

11 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

There's maybe a 5% spread, really, anything can be top tier. It's all about how you use it... No offense, but this is a thread now seeking an answer to a question that already has an answer.

This thread would disagree: 

 

While that's just one test under particular conditions, we can also break down the various rotations to demonstrate that your '5%' notion just ain't so. There's a massive gulf between the top sets and the bottom sets.

 

Moreover, the Assault sets are very different in character. You're going to pursue different builds using sets like Tactical Arrow or Devices than you would with Electric or Dark.

 

The OP's question was entirely reasonable - and most of the responses are not. There are very real differences between the sets and "play what you like" is not a useful answer.

[arkieboy72472]

I like AR/DEV and ICE/FIRE. One allows for lots of ranged play and the other is packed with both AoE and good single target damage. Energy seems to go well with Energy. 

 

The main thing is you understand what your sets can and can't do by playing them. Also Character Theme/RP/Fun/Replay Value > anything else. While there are some primary sets that are the best overall or seem OP (ice/fire/water) and some that are not so great (sonic is slow and better suited for defenders who can get more -RES, electric is weak to me because its secondary is -end and should be -recovery also, plus it is just weak IMO). Assault Rifle is bad close range. Psy and dark feel kinda slow to me. As for secondaries, while fire is great at AoE, I don't care for its single target damage, it has no debuffs. The best character is the fun one you keep coming back to that you can get immersed in. Maybe it has a good outfit and backstory. Take all the powers and level them up and see how the creation plays. Altitis is the reason to keep going!

Edited February 20, 2021 by arkieboy72472

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

This thread would disagree: 

 

While that's just one test under particular conditions, we can also break down the various rotations to demonstrate that your '5%' notion just ain't so. There's a massive gulf between the top sets and the bottom sets.

 

Moreover, the Assault sets are very different in character. You're going to pursue different builds using sets like Tactical Arrow or Devices than you would with Electric or Dark.

 

The OP's question was entirely reasonable - and most of the responses are not. There are very real differences between the sets and "play what you like" is not a useful answer.

Under one particular condition... Ranged PRIMARY set comparison...

 

That, in and of itself, is the single factor that renders the results good... In that one environment and not representative of anything else.

 

Ignoring the fact I clearly discussed that they have a 5% spread when built and played, as a SET, properly doesn't make it untrue.

 

And, one primary set's ranged damage in one condition and ignoring all other factors of play doesn't make it the defining characteristic of a set of primary/secondary/epic + build + player ability.

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, PainX said:

so anything can be just as high damage as a top tier fire blaster uhmm okay 

Straw men need not apply.

[SwitchFade]

@Herotu just wanted to say, I appreciate your posts and feedback when you do, you're definitely a valuable member of our family, in my opinion.

 

I'm glad you're part of our community ☺️

[Herotu]

6 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

@Herotu just wanted to say, I appreciate your posts and feedback when you do, you're definitely a valuable member of our family, in my opinion.

 

I'm glad you're part of our community ☺️

Thanks.. I just wanted a reference that would be nice for those of us who aren't so ... certain about these things. 

 

Any/Any doesn't really help solve decision paralysis. 

I think there;s some behavioural analysis that says people are more decisive when you reduce their options...

Edited February 20, 2021 by Herotu

[SwitchFade]

57 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Thanks.. I just wanted a reference that would be nice for those of us who aren't so ... certain about these things. 

 

Any/Any doesn't really help solve decision paralysis. 

I think there;s some behavioural analysis that says people are more decisive when you reduce their options...

May I suggest, if you have a combo that you want to play, theme, powers, etc... What are they? We can go over how it will feel, perform and function at SO lvl, basic io set bonus lvl and min/maxed before you even get into mids building. That way, you will know how it feels before you start.

 

From a pure performance perspective though, they can all be made uber. You'll have to seriously invest and play it to learn and develop the abilities and io sets  which could be boring if you don't like the theme and feel. I can make AR/Fire into a 54/8 wrecking machinen with cones, jousting and tons of repositioning, but I hate AR, so it's not fun. On the other hand, I love water, so any secondary I pair it with I make work, because I'm having fun. Fire primary is supposedly the "best" but I find it pedantic and boring. I even made a dp/martial, which often is derided as difficult to work and/or underpowered. I love it and it's very powerful.

 

So, what looks and feels really fun to you? From there, the build is easy and you'll enjoy it so much you'll develop the player ability naturally.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

May I suggest, if you have a combo that you want to play, theme, powers, etc... What are they? We can go over how it will feel, perform and function at SO lvl, basic io set bonus lvl and min/maxed before you even get into mids building. That way, you will know how it feels before you start.

 

From a pure performance perspective though, they can all be made uber. You'll have to seriously invest and play it to learn and develop the abilities and io sets  which could be boring if you don't like the theme and feel. I can make AR/Fire into a 54/8 wrecking machinen with cones, jousting and tons of repositioning, but I hate AR, so it's not fun. On the other hand, I love water, so any secondary I pair it with I make work, because I'm having fun. Fire primary is supposedly the "best" but I find it pedantic and boring. I even made a dp/martial, which often is derided as difficult to work and/or underpowered. I love it and it's very powerful.

 

So, what looks and feels really fun to you? From there, the build is easy and you'll enjoy it so much you'll develop the player ability naturally.

 

 

And the thread by @Lex Talion "Left to my own Devices" (roughly 4 pages down) is a perfect example of invest enough time and knowledge and pretty much anything can indeed become very capable, some just require less investment.

[Frosticus]

I would suggest that if you aren't knowledgeable enough about the powersets to make that distinction then you shouldn't worry about it. Every combo can get the job done.

 

Play what you think will be cool/fun/concept.