Remove Cap on Power Pools

[AerialAssault]

Here's an example:

 

A Fire/Fire Blaster. For this quick build, I have taken the Meta-Choice powers; Hover, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Tough & Weave. At Level 28, I already have the powers I'll be using the most (Fire Ball, Rain of Fire, Blaze, Aim & Build Up, and Cauterizing Aura. Everything else is dressing at this point). I suspect that this is the route that many would take, and the character is only a little over half-way through their power selections.

 

With fully unlocked power pools it would be a trivial matter to pick up Hasten and take the dump powers of Sorcery for Rune of Protection, thereby rounding out the character's survivability with ease. I could even take Fly and still have room for seconds. Getting a full build, and full Incarnates for that matter, is no longer the tedious work it was on Live, so this type of character would be more common than you think.

 

Some people might look at that and start doing grabby hands. Others, well, they won't.

 

I think what we have to keep in mind is that this is very much still a game with rules and challenges. At least, that is what Homecoming aim to do, I think. Simply 'unlocking' the game would make it more of a sandbox, which doesn't fit in with that image. People have mentioned the Cake server, WeHaveCake, which is a lot more analogous to a sandbox than a real game, because that's what they aimed for and that's what they made. And honestly, it is fun, it's a lot of fun. But it's not the City of Heroes I enjoy playing seriously for any extended period of time.

 

It may seem like a small thing, and it is. But small steps lead to big changes, and I'm not alone in being concerned that the next steps would lead to a breakdown of the challenges the game provides. It wasn't so long ago that the hot topic was giving Mez Protection to all ATs, so you'll have to forgive the defensiveness of some of us here.

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

Here's an example:

 

A Fire/Fire Blaster. For this quick build, I have taken the Meta-Choice powers; Hover, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Tough & Weave. At Level 28, I already have the powers I'll be using the most (Fire Ball, Rain of Fire, Blaze, Aim & Build Up, and Cauterizing Aura. Everything else is dressing at this point). I suspect that this is the route that many would take, and the character is only a little over half-way through their power selections.

 

With fully unlocked power pools it would be a trivial matter to pick up Hasten and take the dump powers of Sorcery for Rune of Protection, thereby rounding out the character's survivability with ease. I could even take Fly and still have room for seconds. Getting a full build, and full Incarnates for that matter, is no longer the tedious work it was on Live, so this type of character would be more common than you think.

 

Some people might look at that and start doing grabby hands. Others, well, they won't.

 

I think what we have to keep in mind is that this is very much still a game with rules and challenges. At least, that is what Homecoming aim to do, I think. Simply 'unlocking' the game would make it more of a sandbox, which doesn't fit in with that image. People have mentioned the Cake server, WeHaveCake, which is a lot more analogous to a sandbox than a real game, because that's what they aimed for and that's what they made. And honestly, it is fun, it's a lot of fun. But it's not the City of Heroes I enjoy playing seriously for any extended period of time.

 

It may seem like a small thing, and it is. But small steps lead to big changes, and I'm not alone in being concerned that the next steps would lead to a breakdown of the challenges the game provides. It wasn't so long ago that the hot topic was giving Mez Protection to all ATs, so you'll have to forgive the defensiveness of some of us here.

Thank you from actually putting some thought in. Some character builds will have improvement more noticeable than others. Rare iOS are easy these days. No more 100 mil recipes and enhancements these days etc. fully iOd in your example how much better will your open pool concept be in reality? 

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Incursion said:

Um you change pool; log bonus and add it up.

 

Um that doesn't work, because ALL powers have to be considered in order to correctly calculate multiplicative/formulaic bonuses.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Um that doesn't work, because ALL powers have to be considered in order to correctly calculate multiplicative/formulaic bonuses.

True, but you can actually do the math yourself.

 

Unless you can't do the math, but that's not a problem that anyone here can solve.

[AerialAssault]

1 minute ago, Incursion said:

Thank you from actually putting some thought in. Some character builds will have improvement more noticeable than others. Rare iOS are easy these days. No more 100 mil recipes and enhancements these days etc. fully iOd in your example how much better will your open pool concept be in reality? 

 

It's pretty trivial to soft-cap this build, but really, it's not needed. This build would deal so much damage that the few enemies left will be destroyed by the single-target attacks (To note, that's not the pool powers doing, Fire Blast is just that good).

 

Having that access to Rune of Protection, or any of the other origin mini-god-modes would massively cut down on expenditure in the build.

 

Now, I got a low C in maths so don't expect any big brain numbers from me. Naturally, Mids won't allow for more than four power pools so it's hard for me to quantify exactly how much more powerful it would be, but the real metric of 'better' would be investment, in that with unlocked power pools it would take less investment.

[Alchemystic]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

True, but you can actually do the math yourself.

 

Unless you can't do the math, but that's not a problem that anyone here can solve.

 

Actually, I can't.

 

Mids uses a long string of formulas and equations, accounting for exceptions, rules, limitations, and other sequences that are all managed by a system designed to run it.

 

That isn't math, that's code.

[GM Impervium]

Hey all, just hid a bunch of posts.

First warning: keep it cool. If you feel yourself getting heated over someone BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET (ie, not agreeing with your opinion), just walk away from the keyboard for like 10 minutes.

[Incursion]

7 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Actually, I can't.

 

Mids uses a long string of formulas and equations, accounting for exceptions, rules, limitations, and other sequences that are all managed by a system designed to run it.

 

That isn't math, that's code.

It’s easy to do, build the build without that pool and leave leave out selections that will be used in the other pool. Get your totals, then get the total of just that extra pool and add it up. 

[Alchemystic]

21 minutes ago, Incursion said:

It’s easy to do, build the build without that pool and leave leave out selections that will be used in the other pool. Get your totals, then get the total of just that extra pool and add it up. 

 

I addressed this already;

 

In order to properly calculate formulaic/multiplicative bonuses, ALL powers have to be considered at the same time to determine the correct final result.

 

So no, it's not easy to do.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Tyrannical

[MTeague]

7 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey all, just hid a bunch of posts.

First warning: keep it cool. If you feel yourself getting heated over someone BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET (ie, not agreeing with your opinion), just walk away from the keyboard for like 10 minutes.

 

My favorite XKCD of all time. 

 

 

[EDIT:  link for proper attribution:  https://xkcd.com/386/   ]

Edited March 20, 2021 by MTeague

[Incursion]

26 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

My favorite XKCD of all time. 

 

 

[EDIT:  link for proper attribution:  https://xkcd.com/386/   ]

You win

[tidge]

17 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

Provisionally, I would say no. My personal belief is that it would be a step on the road towards further power creep. People already feel that the game is too easy, to me, the response wouldn't be to make things easier, and I sincerely believe that it would make things easier. Nobody here has been lamenting that they can't fit another pool in when they've picked Presence, Medicine, Concealment and Teleportation.

 

I also feel like making the call to lift the limit on 4 (Basic) power pool choices to be asking for more power creep, which in turn will fuel more calls to "make the game harder" (even though I rarely see people doing "hard" content like +4 Rularuu).

 

For myself: I have yet to feel the need to chase more than 4 (basic) power pools, because if something in a power pool was *that important* for a specific character concept, I would choose the appropriate AT along with a Primary and a Secondary that matched the concept. The only concept I see folks chasing here is "I want to hit the (soft) caps." I absolutely look at some power pool picks to allow my builds to slot thinks like Global Defense and Recharge pieces, but in my case those choices are always fit into the build (a) if there is room and (b) they are picked after I have the core power set for the AT established. I never start with the concept "I'm going to hit the S/L Resistance cap". YMMV, as I see a lot of builds where this is the goal.

 

An improved QoL change to power pools would be, IMO, to re-examine the number of "predicate" powers necessary to get the 3rd, 4th, and 5th powers in a pool. Being able to immediately select a true travel power (historically, the 3rd power in a travel pool) is a HUGE QoL improvement. The following would make many characters MOAR BETTA, but I'd be happy for:

• Allowing Tough (Fighting) to be a 1st power pool pick. We can already pick (fast) Travel and +Recharge (Hasten) immediately, why the concern about a toggle for S/L Resistance?
• Allow Invisibility to be a 1st power pool pick. While I can see a progression from Stealth/Grant Invisibility to Invisibility, the existence of Stealth Enhancements for travel powers makes this moot, IMO.
• Allow Invoke Panic (Presence Pool) to be a 2nd choice. I love the Presence pool, but no two of the necessary choices (before being able to choose either Invoke Panic or Unrelenting) offer any synergy. (Those choices are a Taunt, a Placate, and/or a single-target Fear).

 

[The_Warpact]

I say no also, others have more than pointed out what I believe needed to be said on this subject.

Final thoughts, bringing it up multiple times is going to garner the same results ie quit beating on a dead horse.

[arcane]

In summary of yesterday I oppose this on three fronts and probably/maybe in this order:

 

1) do not like the sandbox design philosophy that values infinite choices over elegant design

2) power creep

3) the way this change is being pushed as a means to ensure that players never have to consider the uncomfortable choice of skipping supposedly mandatory powers

[Incursion]

In summary - this proposed change will

- enable more combinations of powers across the board

 

- comes at the cost of power selections

 

- allows more pool dependent thematic choice

 

- may marginally improve improve player  performance, depending on factors such as AT, primary and secondary choices as some are more power selection/slot heavy than others.

Addtional thoughts on the subject

 

- I don’t believe any pool power should feel mandatory

 

- you still have to make hard choices, i choose fun/character creation over perceived difficulty of this change which is really derivative of ones choice as many other factors in this game have already enabled power creep. 

 

- game does not have a new reward system after filling out IO’s and incarnate abilities which are quite simple to do. There’s no challenge to farming for emperyian merits (by increasing by vet levels). 
- There is no task force or trial that is too difficult for any team of 8 of appropriate level and shifting.

 

adding a little more versatility in builds will add more fun than the perceived challenge of a little easier choice in my opinion
 

this change would quiet many other pool related requests as it will benefit all and allow enough flexibility for something new at the same time not be a free for all.

 

I don’t care how you like to play, don’t care how you build, if your a nice person and want to run some missions, cool. No judgement if you role play your whole way through. Do what is fun for you. All I ask is that you respect others if they want to play differently.  Min/maxers don’t need this change, they just want to continue to play with a little more spice, at least that’s what I want to do on my power builds. I have some cool concept toons that would love this and won’t be anywhere near overpowered, as they are built for just something unique. 
 

this is my last post putting forth arguments on this subject. Thank you to those who had a spirited debate and kept it clean.
 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Incursion

[Alchemystic]

I think @arcane summed it up in a concise and straightforward way.👍

 

And thank you to the GMs who managed to clean up problematic posts and keep things on topic as usual. 🙂

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

• Allow Invisibility to be a 1st power pool pick. While I can see a progression from Stealth/Grant Invisibility to Invisibility, the existence of Stealth Enhancements for travel powers makes this moot, IMO.

This is already on the Beta server, yo

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This is already on the Beta server, yo

 

See this now. They changed the Concealment pool to be considered a travel pool. So 8 of 12 pools now allow you to pick any of the first three powers as your first pick from the pool.

 

Why not make that the rule for all of the pools?

[Incursion]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

See this now. They changed the Concealment pool to be considered a travel pool. So 8 of 12 pools now allow you to pick any of the first three powers as your first pick from the pool.

 

Why not make that the rule for all of the pools?

Would be nice to skip boxing or kick to get tough. It’s cool they’ve added some stacking with the powers and cross punch, but that’s a big investment to go from subpar to mediocre.

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

This is already on the Beta server, yo

 I checked the patch notes... and why the revamp is fine by me, it seems motivated more by the travel power revamps than anything else.

 

I understand that it looks like there is an effort to balance out travel options... but just like +Travel is a QoL feature that used to be (much more) gated, I don't understand why the gate is still there for the other power pools.

 

The remaining power pools have a mixed approach to the "synergy" between the initial power choices and the gated powers (some are perhaps better than others), so It confuses me as to WHY we have to gate any pool powers behind TWO (or more, if you want BOTH the 4th and 5th power) behind two other choices. I'm not calling for commonly selected pools to be inherent, I'm not calling for Hasten to be nerfed... I know I am asking for an indirect player buff, but I really I would just prefer that all the pools be gated the same way.

[Captain Citadel]

The Fighting power pool should definitely be tweaked to not require taking Boxing/Kick to get Tough/Weave. I hate having to take one as a melee character and then work it into my attack chain so as not to completely waste a power slot. The synergy is there for people who want to voluntarily invest in the entire pool, but Tough and Weave are as commonly used as powers like Hasten, CJ or Hover which don't require any pre-requisites.