Homecoming Server Update (May 29th): User Agreement & Policy Updates

Valtina · May 30, 2019

Okay I have a question due to coc as my Supergroup name is Cardinal Sin is this going to be an issue? It’s been a guild name we have had for a long time and it was even our sg name in live villa s side long ago. Guess I am just checking to be sure we are legit

Whythalie · May 30, 2019

This may prove enlightening.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/forming-nonprofit-corporation-delaware-36056.html

To get tax exempt it could take months, IF it is ever granted by the IRS

.

None of which has been done based on what I have seen.

justicebeliever · May 30, 2019

This reminds me of Star Trek III:

Alien:

How soon is now. How much is, where?

McCoy:

Somewhere in the Mutara sector.

Alien:

Oh, Mutara restricted! Take permits many; money more.

McCoy:

There aren't gonna be any damned permits! How can you get a permit to do a damned illegal thing?

Leandro · May 30, 2019

None of which has been done based on what I have seen.

Bluntly, a lot of the calls for "transparency" are to stir drama up and cry how things "aren't being done" just because they are not happening fast enough. No, they're not going to give you daily updates on how every single aspect of the LLC is run. They got better things to do with their time, like actually run the servers.

A lot of posters who complain about "transparency" are just trying to hold Homecoming to impossible standards to seed FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) on players.

If you don't like that Homecoming LLC is running the servers as a professional operation which requires them to comply with applicable laws, there are other servers out there that don't care and will happily violate COPPA in order to avoid having an EULA.

Disclaimer: again, I am not part of Homecoming LLC. This is just common sense.

thunderforce · May 30, 2019

I asked about this on Discord, but it had become rather busy. The CoC reads:

"Anything illegal:

This includes anything related to gambling, child pornography, terrorism, controlled substances, and any real world criminal activity (yes, we know City of Villains exists)."

I asked, does this mean I can't mention the Casino Heist summer blockbuster?

No, says GM Jimmy - "It is specifically referring to real-world activities there."

I submit if that is the intention, then the words "real world" should appear near the start of the sentence, not midway through it, or the word "other" should appear before "real world".

Also, GM Jimmy's statement seems to imply that it's permitted to, say, create a villain whose bio establishes they collect child pornography, because it's not real-world. Surely that is not the intent either! (You might say this is covered under "Sexual, provocative, pornographic, or adult content", but obviously there wouldn't _be_ any such content, merely an allusion to its existence.)

"Violent content" is also prohibited. Now, I know, they ain't kilt, they's de-fea-ted, but maybe this wants to be more like "realistic depictions of violence"? Because the game is completely full of violent content.

Fista · May 30, 2019

The "how" and "why" of their acquisition of said code doesn't really factor in (unless it does and I miss my mark; highly likely that I have) unless someone who owned the original code (such as NCSoft) makes it an issue.

Knowingly receiving stolen property, which this code is, is illegal. The only reason things are they way they are not is that, as far as we know, NCSOFT has decided not to do anything about it. That could change in the next 5 seconds or never. The code is in the wild and anyone can start a server. So NCSOFT has to make the decision if they want to spend the money and time to play whack a mole.

Fista · May 30, 2019

This may prove enlightening.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/forming-nonprofit-corporation-delaware-36056.html

To get tax exempt it could take months, IF it is ever granted by the IRS

.
None of which has been done based on what I have seen.

Yes it has. They have formed an LLC in the state of Delaware. The rest we have to take on faith. Unless they have copies of the documents they filed and would like to share. But I'll go with faith. I don't see what they have to gain by misleading us on this. And even if they are I'm not sure I really care all that much. It would make me question any future announcements regarding money but as this is currently donation driven and from my personal review of the information they have given regarding the cost of running the servers I'm content they are doing what they say they are.

Whythalie · May 30, 2019

None of which has been done based on what I have seen.

Bluntly, a lot of the calls for "transparency" are to stir drama up and cry how things "aren't being done" just because they are not happening fast enough. No, they're not going to give you daily updates on how every single aspect of the LLC is run. They got better things to do with their time, like actually run the servers.

A lot of posters who complain about "transparency" are just trying to hold Homecoming to impossible standards to seed FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) on players.

If you don't like that Homecoming LLC is running the servers as a professional operation which requires them to comply with applicable laws, there are other servers out there that don't care and will happily violate COPPA in order to avoid having an EULA.

Disclaimer: again, I am not part of Homecoming LLC. This is just common sense.

I am not asking for each and every transaction that goes on every day. What I am asking is that they keep their promise to update us as they originally promised. Each thing that has been done lessens my trust in the team running this server. You are trying to make something legal while doing something illegal. I don’t want this to be run by NCSoft again and it appears that is exactly where it is headed. I have said my piece. No point arguing with those who can’t see the whole picture.

Dr. Gemini · May 30, 2019

This needs to win the award for most hilarious thread on the forums. But I've brought the cheese because clearly many of you have had too much wine.

justicebeliever · May 30, 2019

The "how" and "why" of their acquisition of said code doesn't really factor in (unless it does and I miss my mark; highly likely that I have) unless someone who owned the original code (such as NCSoft) makes it an issue.

Knowingly receiving stolen property, which this code is, is illegal. The only reason things are they way they are not is that, as far as we know, NCSOFT has decided not to do anything about it. That could change in the next 5 seconds or never. The code is in the wild and anyone can start a server. So NCSOFT has to make the decision if they want to spend the money and time to play whack a mole.

Code is copyrighted, and the copyright will last decades. It does not matter if NCSoft has done nothing about it before, or it’s fallen into disuse. It’s not been orphaned and NCSoft can exercise it’s rights whenever it wants. NCSoft will never win whack a mole, but it could be inclined to at least go after the biggest violators, and ensure that no large scale operations exist, and none in the public eye. That would still ruin the game for most players, myself included.

Saikochoro · May 30, 2019

None of which has been done based on what I have seen.

Bluntly, a lot of the calls for "transparency" are to stir drama up and cry how things "aren't being done" just because they are not happening fast enough. No, they're not going to give you daily updates on how every single aspect of the LLC is run. They got better things to do with their time, like actually run the servers.

A lot of posters who complain about "transparency" are just trying to hold Homecoming to impossible standards to seed FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) on players.

If you don't like that Homecoming LLC is running the servers as a professional operation which requires them to comply with applicable laws, there are other servers out there that don't care and will happily violate COPPA in order to avoid having an EULA.

Disclaimer: again, I am not part of Homecoming LLC. This is just common sense.

I am not asking for each and every transaction that goes on every day. What I am asking is that they keep their promise to update us as they originally promised. Each thing that has been done lessens my trust in the team running this server. You are trying to make something legal while doing something illegal. I don’t want this to be run by NCSoft again and it appears that is exactly where it is headed. I have said my piece. No point arguing with those who can’t see the whole picture.

It’s disingenuous for you to claim others aren’t seeing the whole picture if you yourself aren’t willing to see the whole picture either. Things take time regardless of whether you want them to or not. The fact that it has come this far already with a group of volunteers is outstanding. They will update when appropriate.

Fista · May 30, 2019

The "how" and "why" of their acquisition of said code doesn't really factor in (unless it does and I miss my mark; highly likely that I have) unless someone who owned the original code (such as NCSoft) makes it an issue.

Knowingly receiving stolen property, which this code is, is illegal. The only reason things are they way they are not is that, as far as we know, NCSOFT has decided not to do anything about it. That could change in the next 5 seconds or never. The code is in the wild and anyone can start a server. So NCSOFT has to make the decision if they want to spend the money and time to play whack a mole.

Code is copyrighted, and the copyright will last decades. It does not matter if NCSoft has done nothing about it before, or it’s fallen into disuse. It’s not been orphaned and NCSoft can exercise it’s rights whenever it wants. NCSoft will never win whack a mole, but it could be inclined to at least go after the biggest violators, and ensure that no large scale operations exist, and none in the public eye. That would still ruin the game for most players, myself included.

Is that not what I just said?

Azrath · May 30, 2019

Code is copyrighted, and the copyright will last decades. It does not matter if NCSoft has done nothing about it before, or it’s fallen into disuse. It’s not been orphaned and NCSoft can exercise it’s rights whenever it wants.

On the flip side, the character designs, logos and such are trademarked; and trademarks only last for 10 years, need to be renewed in the middle of that; and only survive if you actively defend them. Which, you know, NCSoft hasn't been doing because they just threw everything in the trashbin and walked away.

But I'm a Warshade, not a lawyer.

Dr. Gemini · May 30, 2019

Code is copyrighted, and the copyright will last decades. It does not matter if NCSoft has done nothing about it before, or it’s fallen into disuse. It’s not been orphaned and NCSoft can exercise it’s rights whenever it wants. NCSoft will never win whack a mole, but it could be inclined to at least go after the biggest violators, and ensure that no large scale operations exist, and none in the public eye. That would still ruin the game for most players, myself included.

NCSoft also has to worry about who is going to stand and fight if they take action. IP holders often lose cases where the opponent is not making any profit from their IP and they can't show any losses due to unauthorized use of their IP. Not that those always work out well for those who fight, either, the Star Trek case being one good example of that. Fortunately for us, there is just as much reason to think NCSoft will do nothing as there is to think they will do something, so we can viably choose to think positively and enjoy it. At least that's what I'm going to do.

misat · May 30, 2019

You can admit it. It's OK. I've suspected for some time now. Homecoming is a front for NCSOFT. I say this because I'm not sure how you can have a legally binding document for something illegal. I'll agree to it because I love the game like the server and you guys seem OK. But again not sure how this works legally.

I was thinking the same thing and I had to ask a friend about it "Lawyer" and he said, It's not a binding contract because the code was stolen from NcSoft. Even though NCsoft has yet to take a stand on the private servers only their TOS would be legal for their game, no matter who hosts a server without their permission. yes, all Private servers removed NcSoft TOS we had to agree to when we logged in for the first time or after an update on the live servers, It's still in effect when you play their game. Not that it matters really, everyone that downloaded the game from a private server launcher has bigger problems to worry about if NCsoft wants to be a dick lol if you're like me you still have at least four copies of it still

Ironblade · May 30, 2019

I am not asking for each and every transaction that goes on every day. What I am asking is that they keep their promise to update us as they originally promised. Each thing that has been done lessens my trust in the team running this server. You are trying to make something legal while doing something illegal. I don’t want this to be run by NCSoft again and it appears that is exactly where it is headed. I have said my piece. No point arguing with those who can’t see the whole picture.

And, from everyone else's point of view, no point arguing with someone who doesn't HAVE the whole picture - which you admit you do not, with your complaints about transparency.

Seriously, though, no one is forcing you to be here. If you don't trust the people running the server and have issues with how they are doing things, vote with your feet. I'm guessing that your posts are not going to have any impact on how they are running this operation, and rightly so.

Abraxus · May 30, 2019

I believe this situation is like so many others where folks have found grounds to voice complaints, and lodge allegations against the Homecoming team. If this place isn't to your liking, there are plenty of other servers out there which apparently would are more to your liking. So, what are you still doing here? Please avail yourself of the opportunity to exercise a stealthy exit, and godspeed to you!

In your absence, we will be playing the game we love in a friendly environment with rules preventing obnoxious play tactics, and behavior. Not to mention, any illegal activities which would obviously draw the kind of attention we don't need here.

Darkcleod · May 30, 2019

I'm just some random nobody, from nowhere, and of no general consequence to this whole debate. But, one thing I do think I can say is something that, I believe, most of the players will agree with:

I'll happily click "Agree" or whatever, in order to continue playing City of Heroes. There's a lot of us who wished for the game to come back, every day, since it was sun-downed years ago. These people - the people behind Homecoming - brought City of Heroes back to us. And for that, we'll click "Agree" without hesitation.

That's really all that needs to be said. :-)

Zep · May 30, 2019

I suspect some people have misunderstandings about what a non-profit is or is not.

It is clear that Homecoming is serving the public.

With the internet self education is just a click away: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/non-profitorganization.asp

Non-profits are allowed to have and pay employees, save money for emergencies, etc.

It is clear Homecoming is entirely supported by volunteer hours. Thank you again to all those volunteers.

Abraxus · May 30, 2019

I suspect some people have misunderstandings about what a non-profit is or is not.

It is clear that Homecoming is serving the public.

With the internet self education is just a click away: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/non-profitorganization.asp

Non-profits are allowed to have and pay employees, save money for emergencies, etc.

It is clear Homecoming is entirely supported by volunteer hours. Thank you again to all those volunteers.

Roger that!

Healix · May 30, 2019

Indeed. Thank you for all you do. We all love our City, or we wouldn't be here.

lastword · May 30, 2019

I suspect some people have misunderstandings about what a non-profit is or is not.

It is clear that Homecoming is serving the public.

With the internet self education is just a click away: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/non-profitorganization.asp

Non-profits are allowed to have and pay employees, save money for emergencies, etc.

It is clear Homecoming is entirely supported by volunteer hours. Thank you again to all those volunteers.

well said

kabalyero · May 30, 2019

I suspect some people have misunderstandings about what a non-profit is or is not.

It is clear that Homecoming is serving the public.

With the internet self education is just a click away: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/non-profitorganization.asp

Non-profits are allowed to have and pay employees, save money for emergencies, etc.

It is clear Homecoming is entirely supported by volunteer hours. Thank you again to all those volunteers.

QFT

Lunchmoney · May 30, 2019

The level of tin-hat paranoia I'm reading is funny. If you don't like the idea of the agreement don't agree to it and don't play on Homecoming.

I'll be hitting the agree button, as will my local friends, so I can play more Heroes 8)

Nferno · May 30, 2019

The level of tin-hat paranoia I'm reading is funny. If you don't like the idea of the agreement don't agree to it and don't plant on Homecoming.

I'll be hitting the agree button, as will the my local friends, so I can play more Heroes 8)

Agreed. I feel that quite a few posters didn’t actually read the terms presented. My takeaway from it was it’s a “cover their ass” type of agreement. Much of it boiled down to “If things go awry, you can’t come after the Homecoming folks”. Sadly in this day and age, you can’t be too careful. Say if someone had a Homecoming meet up and god forbid one person hurt another at said meet up, this agreement says clearly that The Homecoming team cannot be blamed or held liable. Of course that’s just an example.

Anyway, I totally understand why it’s in place. They can’t be too careful cuz let’s face it, people are nuts.

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