A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[SwitchFade]

30 minutes ago, Naraka said:

You're right...

 

... If all we did was stand there and let our capped defense "arrest" the bad guys.

I know, pie is tasty, amarite?!

 

[Coyotedancer]

Incarnate-buffed Rularuu...

 

Yikes. Just... yikes. 

That's absolutely terrifying.

 

 

 

 

Make it so.

[PeregrineFalcon]

To no one's surprise at this point, I must say that I'm against nerfing IOs. While a lot of them can be used to bring a squishy to the defense soft-cap, a lot of the rest are near useless. Also, as someone who has one blaster at 31% defense, it seems to me that you have to nearly wreak your build to get anywhere near the soft-cap. Or at least you have to plan your entire build around it. Personally I didn't want to go quite that far.

 

Instead of nerfing players why not buff enemies in specific zones? Reworking the Shadow Shards into co-op zones with enemies that are capable of challenging Incarnates is my first thought. And yes, I'm well aware that I'm hardly the first person to think of this.

 

I'd much rather see that than have IO's be nerfed.

[Leogunner]

37 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I don't know. Most of the pickup groups I been in since coming back to COH (since near the start of HC) has been mostly teams avoiding Carnies, Malta and anything else that could be challenging. /shurg.

Groups do avoid certain factions but it's not solely due to "challenge".  Many avoid things like DE because they find the various pet spawning annoying or Sky Raiders because they teleport around too much or Cabal because they spread out and fly around.

 

All in all, I don't feel any of the groups are particularly challenging if you're prepared to rework your approach if they start stacking their effects on you.

 

That being said, I retract my previous statement as I'm reminded that Vanguard, if I recall correctly, have a debuff that reduces your max END by like 25% that lasts for 5 min.  Maybe it was for one mission or something but it's more annoying than the Carnies' mask powers iirc.

[golstat2003]

22 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Groups do avoid certain factions but it's not solely due to "challenge".  Many avoid things like DE because they find the various pet spawning annoying or Sky Raiders because they teleport around too much or Cabal because they spread out and fly around.

 

All in all, I don't feel any of the groups are particularly challenging if you're prepared to rework your approach if they start stacking their effects on you.

 

That being said, I retract my previous statement as I'm reminded that Vanguard, if I recall correctly, have a debuff that reduces your max END by like 25% that lasts for 5 min.  Maybe it was for one mission or something but it's more annoying than the Carnies' mask powers iirc.

 

I just think there are more folks who prefer to casually steam roll through mobs than are others who seek challenge. I base this on my experience form both live, on HC and the various forum discussions over the years.

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Groups do avoid certain factions but it's not solely due to "challenge".  Many avoid things like DE because they find the various pet spawning annoying or Sky Raiders because they teleport around too much or Cabal because they spread out and fly around.

 

All in all, I don't feel any of the groups are particularly challenging if you're prepared to rework your approach if they start stacking their effects on you.

 

That being said, I retract my previous statement as I'm reminded that Vanguard, if I recall correctly, have a debuff that reduces your max END by like 25% that lasts for 5 min.  Maybe it was for one mission or something but it's more annoying than the Carnies' mask powers iirc.

This is exactly it.

 

None are avoided for the Danger.  More avoided due to inconveniences. 

 

Malta because sappers Detoggling you is annoying. 

Carnies due to the death END drain, and the Intangible effects 

Arachnos because of blinds. 

 

The Shadow Shard isn't avoided because of Danger either, more the travel being annoying.  

 

Most 35+ teams are running 4+ Maneuvers and Tactics all the time.  If there is something "scary" you can just stay with the group instead of forging on ahead. 

[Doomguide2005]

A few thoughts at random

 

     A great deal of the fog surrounding the powers numeric values wasn't undone by the transparency of "real numbers" but by players figuring it out.  The same post in which she published "Attack Mechanics" Arcanaville mentions that the actual values of the 'Aim and 'Build Up' powers were still being debated.  This was post i6, CoX was a thing already.

     The soft cap is just that ... soft.  As pointed out above its 'softness' is exploited by a large number of the more difficult foes already in existence including every single Incarnate foe that exists in the game.

       From i5 back higher level foes didn't get accuracy bonuses.  They got ... To Hit bonuses.  And we still did stupid scrapper tricks and stupid controller tricks and well you get the idea.  Things change, the game is not and never has been static.

     Defense isn't nearly as bonkers out of control as our ability to smack our foes with absurd amounts of offense (i.e. damage).  The game is loaded with defdebuffs ... even the scoffed at Council have a fair bit of defdebuffs.  They just have utterly no time to apply those debuffs before being being obliterated by us.  Sure high defense makes that worse but really it starts with the rolling nuke and judgement show making it irrelevant even if all those debuffs actually hit ... no one left to take advantage of the debuffs which wear off relatively quickly (as in often before the next mob gets lined up to be obliterated)

     As stated several times up thread harder more challenging (more annoying?, one person's harder is anothers annoying) mobs exist.  The inf/merit/drops for taking them on don't exist.  If the challenge itself isn't your priority ...

    No doubt something else will pop into my thoughts as soon as I hit submit.

 

Edit:  I knew it, thoughts ... I mentioned the soft cap is well soft because "changing" it  is largely pointless, it's soft.   What you're talking about is changing the foes base hit ala Incarnate foes OR changing the player base to hit value (yeah the under 20 crowd who don't do DFB will love that) OR a ridiculously massive nerf to the hardcap which is up around 200% varying by AT.

     

Edited March 27, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts

[Leogunner]

11 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I just think there are more folks who prefer to casually steam roll through mobs than are others who seek challenge. I base this on my experience form both live, on HC and the various forum discussions over the years.

Well I think the reason I replied to your point was to point out that to some, everything that gets in the way of steamrolling isn't challenge.

 

Although I wonder, what if inspirations counted as IO bonuses and there was a diminishing return on them at a certain point?  Inspirations are supposed to be an equalizing tactical mechanic to help everyone but what would happen if they helped your 31% def Blaster less unless you use higher tier purples?  Same with Tankers using high +dmg buffs and reds.  Of course, it excludes mid-tier and high-tier external buffs (high tier buffs being Defender, Corruptor and MM while mid is your Controllers, Doms and Blasters) or armor tier 9s but it could be made to be that buffs, internal and external, are in a hierarchy with a diminishing returns effect affecting each level differently or not at all until the cap is reached.  Inspirations and IO bonuses would just be the lowest tier so there's a choice in build outcomes when considering the whole of your playstyle to include inspiration use.

 

Not sure if I'm making sense to some but it'd probably wouldn't be worth elaborating on since ultimately it would be a nerf to the upper end of the power spectrum. 

[Doomguide2005]

Well if inspirations were treated like IO set bonuses you could only have 5 of them ... of any given name.   So 5 luck, 5 good luck, 5 phenomenal luck etc.. Now if it was more like ED and diminishing returns that's a whole other thing.  And likely not very popular in the least.

[RunoKnows]

10 hours ago, arcane said:

All that being said, I recognize that so many high end players are so thoroughly addicted to unmoving health bars that they would absolutely ragequit. So the change is virtually undoable without outsized consequences and unlikely to ever happen for that reason.

The consequences would stem from people being annoyed and frustrated that the extravagant amount of time they spent building their characters to play the way they want to play -- then being struck with an unnecessary, heavy-handed and outright silly nerf. People wouldn't "ragequit" due to their 'addiction'. They would leave, likely for another server as @golstat2003 mentioned just above, and we would lose people. Probably a lot, if I had to guess. None of us can offer an estimate or an exact number, but if you think people wouldn't (rightfully) be ticked off and head out, then you're fooling yourself

 

You have two options that don't involve destroying other people's hard work:

1. Do what softcapped players are doing -- but play how YOU want to play. Build the character YOU want to play. Your playstyle, your build, that is all entirely up to you and no one else can impact how you play. You don't have to build optimal/meta characters to play the game, not even on public teams. You're probably the only person on the team that cares about, let alone noticed, your performance -- and even if you join a team that has some utter beast of a Rad/Rad brute steamrolling everything and carrying a 50+4x8 singlehandedly, or a Fire/Kin controller knocking out repeatables so fast that you don't even have time to load in and out of the mission before your team is done... Okay, I'm sure that's frustrating, but if that is problematic then you have option two:

2. Make your own teams. You have resources for this out the wazoo. Create a supergroup of characters that are only allowed to build a certain way (maybe a simple rule of the thumb, even: "no softcapping". Put together an in-game channel so you can organize impromptu teams, and create a schedule for events on Discord or even here on the Homecoming forums. Bam. Problem solved, and without initiating Exterminatus on everyone else's time and hard work. It is SERIOUSLY that easy

 

With those options available to you until/if/when the devs see fit to add higher-difficulty, more challenging content for level 50s and Incarnated/IO'd characters, you have no excuse not to do something about what troubles you in the meanwhile.

 

And if that sounds like too much work, then I don't know what to tell you, because the only time I've seen people vehemently defend the idea of nerfing the softcap or otherwise neutering high-performance builds are people who aren't willing to put in the work to make characters that can compete. Quite frankly, that's silly, since the same builds are available to any and all players past, present and future.

 

You have the tools -- now it's up to you to create the solution you're after.

[Haijinx]

I just realized today at work this whole argument is completely pointless.

 

For those that cut their teeth on Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's (and maybe some of you younger players) you will know the reference...

 

We are basically arguing with the Munchkins 

 

 

===

And yes our "DM" is catering to them, not to us.  

[Greycat]

16 hours ago, nihilii said:

Guarded information creates an elitist system. Those who are in the know and those who are willing to go through tedious trial-and-error or spend just as much time discussing with others who will go through that process, get a significant advantage over anyone else.

 

 

... Had to comment on this, because this is just not how I recall those days. Granted, I didn't get *into* those discussions much, because just like now I don't particularly care, but Arcanaville and others seemed to be quite willing to publicly share their (fairly tedious seeming) testing, both in methodology and result, while trying to ferret out numbers and mechanics before the curtain was pulled back. It was quite the opposite of elitist.

[Doomguide2005]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I just realized today at work this whole argument is completely pointless.

 

For those that cut their teeth on Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's (and maybe some of you younger players) you will know the reference...

 

We are basically arguing with the Munchkins 

 

 

===

And yes our "DM" is catering to them, not to us.  

I'd say it's more along the lines of the "I hate high level, I love high level" debates ... nevermind discussions about Epic vs Mythic vs high level. 🤪

[RunoKnows]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I just realized today at work this whole argument is completely pointless.

 

For those that cut their teeth on Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's (and maybe some of you younger players) you will know the reference...

 

We are basically arguing with the Munchkins 

 

 

===

And yes our "DM" is catering to them, not to us.  

As someone who's been on the D&D scene for a while: people who build for softcap or otherwise powerful builds are not munchkins. They're using systems and mechanics that the game has provided to everyone, fairly, without cheating, exploiting, or fudging any rules.

 

The "DM" is not catering to 'munchkins'. Actually, you're asking the DM to break everyone else's builds because you've been wondering for the past five sessions why your wizard with a -1 Strength modifier can't kill things efficiently if they just ignore their spellbook and try to stab an adult dragon to death.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, RunoKnows said:

As someone who's been on the D&D scene for a while: people who build for softcap or otherwise powerful builds are not munchkins. They're using systems and mechanics that the game has provided to everyone, fairly, without cheating, exploiting, or fudging any rules.

 

The "DM" is not catering to 'munchkins'. Actually, you're asking the DM to break everyone else's builds because you've been wondering for the past five sessions why your wizard with a -1 Strength modifier can't kill things efficiently if they just ignore their spellbook and try to stab an adult dragon to death.

 

The "fudging of the rules" is the problem.

 

The Mechanics of the game can't absorb the level of Power Creep it was expected to absorb.  

 

And the Munchkins are totes cool with that.  

 

=====

To continue the D&D analogy, its like everyone past a certain level has a THACO of -20 and an AC of -20 (or 30 for you 3E+ kids),

Oh and everyone with Status protection makes free savings throws ALL the time.  

 

And yes, touching on the Transparency sidebar.  That part of the system really did just end up being a simple variant on the old D&D to hit scales.  >.<

(They had computers to do all the heavy lifting and they used a probability based system that some kids in Wisconsin came up with almost 50 years ago) 

 

=====

I agree, expecting everyone to give up their character builds they put together with the systems that were provided and encouraged to use is bad.  

 

And it won't really totally solve the problem anyway.  You can create the same situation by just inviting more support.  Or staying within 60 feet of your teammates and basking in the leadership spam and so on.  It wouldn't be as commonplace, but its straightforward enough. 

 

IMO the way to solve the problem is retool the mechanics into something nuanced and complex enough to handle all the build complexity.  But that's not going to happen.  

[Leogunner]

33 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... Had to comment on this, because this is just not how I recall those days. Granted, I didn't get *into* those discussions much, because just like now I don't particularly care, but Arcanaville and others seemed to be quite willing to publicly share their (fairly tedious seeming) testing, both in methodology and result, while trying to ferret out numbers and mechanics before the curtain was pulled back. It was quite the opposite of elitist.

Wasn't Arcanaville also putting out commentary on how the system likely needed to be adjusted because of its binary effect?  Basically, Arcana was putting out the point that def was, cumulatively, too strong compared to resistance.

 

Basically, a lesson not learned...

[Leogunner]

34 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

As someone who's been on the D&D scene for a while: people who build for softcap or otherwise powerful builds are not munchkins. They're using systems and mechanics that the game has provided to everyone, fairly, without cheating, exploiting, or fudging any rules.

 

The "DM" is not catering to 'munchkins'. Actually, you're asking the DM to break everyone else's builds because you've been wondering for the past five sessions why your wizard with a -1 Strength modifier can't kill things efficiently if they just ignore their spellbook and try to stab an adult dragon to death.

More like, if there is something obviously broken and exploitable in the source books, you're looking to the DM to either create homebrew mechanics to reign it in or create campaigns that, more or less, diminish the benefits of said brokent/exploitable mechanic [EDIT] by not needing/using/exploiting said mechanic.. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Leogunner

[RunoKnows]

Well, Paragon Studios created those "obviously broken and exploitable" mechanics, then continued to expand upon them; the Homecoming team continued the trend when they took over and seem to be intent on continuing even further, and as far as I'm aware literally any of the other CoH servers floating about have also continued the trend

 

Things are not broken. Things are not being exploited or abused. If you want to play the game without softcapping your characters, that is completely your prerogative, but the people trying to push for breaking the softcap and the overall performance of characters with a lot of IOs/Incarnate powers and/or choice powerset combinations should be the only ones that would be impacted by that decision.

 

I already mentioned this above, but in case it needs repeating: make your own teams. You have in-game channels and supergroup chat, DIscord servers, the Homecoming forums and more at your disposal. Trying to push a change that would ruin other people's good times when the change you want is already available is selfish and petty.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

Well, Paragon Studios created those "obviously broken and exploitable" mechanics, then continued to expand upon them; the Homecoming team continued the trend when they took over and seem to be intent on continuing even further, and as far as I'm aware literally any of the other CoH servers floating about have also continued the trend

 

Things are not broken. Things are not being exploited or abused. If you want to play the game without softcapping your characters, that is completely your prerogative, but the people trying to push for breaking the softcap and the overall performance of characters with a lot of IOs/Incarnate powers and/or choice powerset combinations should be the only ones that would be impacted by that decision.

 

I already mentioned this above, but in case it needs repeating: make your own teams. You have in-game channels and supergroup chat, DIscord servers, the Homecoming forums and more at your disposal. Trying to push a change that would ruin other people's good times when the change you want is already available is selfish and petty.

You're not wrong.

 

I guess I'm more aligning with the conclusions that Arcana was making in that def just gives a disproportionate advantage compared to resistance or regeneration.  If my memory serves, I think the whole reason Acranaville delved so deeply into the mechanics of the game was partly due to wanting to prove that Regeneration didn't deserved to be nerfed.

[Haijinx]

46 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

The "DM" is not catering to 'munchkins'. Actually, you're asking the DM to break everyone else's builds because you've been wondering for the past five sessions why your wizard with a -1 Strength modifier can't kill things efficiently if they just ignore their spellbook and try to stab an adult dragon to death.

This part actually is a total strawman of my position.  

 

I have no intention of playing this game with a SO only build, or a suboptimal set of Primary/Secondaries or anything like that.  

I play with full scale softcapped, perma-Hasten, T4 incarnates, Seafood Ambush standing, AV stomping goodness and all the rest.  

 

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

Well, Paragon Studios created those "obviously broken and exploitable" mechanics, then continued to expand upon them; the Homecoming team continued the trend when they took over and seem to be intent on continuing even further, and as far as I'm aware literally any of the other CoH servers floating about have also continued the trend

 

Things are not broken. Things are not being exploited or abused. If you want to play the game without softcapping your characters, that is completely your prerogative, but the people trying to push for breaking the softcap and the overall performance of characters with a lot of IOs/Incarnate powers and/or choice powerset combinations should be the only ones that would be impacted by that decision.

 

I already mentioned this above, but in case it needs repeating: make your own teams. You have in-game channels and supergroup chat, DIscord servers, the Homecoming forums and more at your disposal. Trying to push a change that would ruin other people's good times when the change you want is already available is selfish and petty.

 

Oh they are definitely broken.  Have a little gander at "The Tank Gods" Thread over in the Tanker Subforum.   

And wanting them to stay broken is exactly the same thing that drives Munchkins.  

 

And Homecoming has no choice but to keep them broken.  Because they aren't the only COX game in town.  Even if they wanted to overhaul the system.  Not sure that they even do.  

 

And yep Paragon Studios went with an overly simplistic system.  The Designers were human and they worked good enough for what they had come up with at the time.  When things got out of hand they adjusted (See ED, Global Defense Nerf)  But they stopped adjusting for Power Creep sometime around when IOs came out (in any real sense)   Its easier to stay with what you know, and what the players know, and so on.   Honestly its forgivable, since they didn't likely KNOW the system they were using was going to turn out overly simplistic.  After all it worked for games like Dungeons and Dragons ... 

 

Also, I'm not trying to push anything.  I think its pointless.  Its not going to get changed.  Nothing's getting nerfed.  I just refuse to believe that rational adults can't see after all the power creep that this game is way way too easy.  Even for a "Super Hero" game.  Say I have cognitive dissonance, whatever.   

 

Although I expect a lot of the status quo defenders KNOW all this, but pretend like they don't to serve as Flaming Guardians standing ready on the forums to stop the off chance someone has a really good idea that might actually work or something. 

 

And I'm not going to make self nerfing teams and all that BS.  That's stupid.  And it does nothing to address the root problem.   When I get bored, I play something else.  I often prefer challenging games.  Like say .. Kerbal Space Program.  Which is a thousand times harder than COX.  Even when using MechJeb.  And that's a game with Cartoon Frogs. 

 

 

 

[macskull]

I'm not sure what exactly OP is trying to accomplish. The game already offers options to significantly increase difficulty, one just has to 1) know these options exist and 2) use them. Go run +4x8 repeatables in Firebase Zulu. Limit your team size to 3 or 4 people and run at +4x8. Solo a blueside respec trial at max difficulty. Enable the task force/flashback difficulty options. Exemplar down and go fight up-leveled enemies. Try new things, like seeing how well you can solo large spawn sizes on a FF/AR Defender or something. There's no reason to nerf everyone else because you aren't using the resources available to you.

 

EDIT: To address another major flaw with OP's premise - gutting defense doesn't solve the problem they're trying to fix. Simply lowering the amount of defense a character is able to obtain just means they're going to find other ways of bridging the gap, and the playerbase will gravitate toward the next best thing. Nerfing defense increases "sameness" because it eliminates options.

Edited March 27, 2021 by macskull

[RunoKnows]

22 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And I'm not going to make self nerfing teams and all that BS.  That's stupid.  And it does nothing to address the root problem. 

There is a solution, right there in front of you, for you and the people that share your stance. It DOES address the problem (a problem, might I add, that you only perceive as problematic when it seems to be otherwise universally accepted that it is a nonissue), and it only requires the tiniest modicum of effort to get what you want done

 

It also doesn't involve destroying the game for other players that do not want to see their characters nerfed into dust. Assuming that this would fly over well with everyone else in the community is silly

 

If your answer is "I don't want to put in any effort to play the game the way I want to play, so the devs should force everyone else in the game to play that way", then it is a pretty terrible solution.

[Leogunner]

44 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

If your answer is "I don't want to put in any effort to play the game the way I want to play, so the devs should force everyone else in the game to play that way", then it is a pretty terrible solution.

You know, all I want is for people that defend the status quo to admit their game has a baby system with baby mechanics that don't really have much challenge behind it besides lining up the right stats that are overall abundant in the games' setup.

 

I can abandon pie in the sky suggestions and Red Spot level brainstorming of changes to add nuance to the game...I'd just like the consensus at large to admit the best resistance available to oppose the player is annoyance.  Yeah, make the foes immune to damage.  Make them unseeable/untargetable. Let them tear through soft cap defenses but give them the constitution of a champaign flute.  With practically no AI, let the solution be just kiting the idiot game into oblivion or just out-stat the game.

 

Don't insult me by saying I don't want to put any effort into the game.  That's just ridiculous.  I put in more effort adapting with a moderate IO build or a leveling build than most that keep their SOs topped off simply because I actively DO nerf myself and the game is still easy.

[RunoKnows]

City of Heroes IS a game with a baby system, baby mechanics and little challenge. It is one of the easiest MMOs out there, which is part of its appeal. Some people, like me and a whole lot of other people, enjoy putting a bunch of work into hitting level 50, getting the perfect IOs, and maxing out your Incarnate powers, then absolutely steamrolling content that was already unlikely to pose much of a challenge. We're superheroes and supervillains doing super-powerful things with our superpowers, that's kind of what a lot of the game should be like to begin with

 

I'd love the addition of more challenging content, including higher difficulties or additional incarnate content, but breaking the way the game has played and destroying people's characters is flat-out NOT the answer.

Edited March 27, 2021 by RunoKnows
I'm dumb and missed some words