A note on Rune of Protection changes

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

For what?

 

For building a character. Goes back to the idea that pools (origin or otherwise) need to NOT suck compared to other primary/secondary powers or other pool powers. They don't need to be overpowered (and surely not equal to every primary/sec power), but if I look at them, and look at another power, then look back at the origin/pool power and go "nahhhh" SOME improvement IS needed.

 

EDIT:

 

The more we have good powers across the pri/secs, pool, epic pools, and origin pools the more we have to make hard choices for builds. That leads to MORE build diversity, not less.

Edited April 4, 2021 by golstat2003

[PirateCrew]

16 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

 

You're both correct that the current iterations of Rune both on live and in beta are underwhelming on SOs. This is because:

• Most spawns clear in 30-40s, so you have a duration redundancy of 50-60s on live & 20-30s on beta.
• 90/60s duration means the enhaceable recharge has to be very long. So you can't use it as an escape mez power as frequently as you'd like.

 

There is a further change being trialed on the closed beta server that goes some way to improve these concerns.

 

For those curious, here's a link to the testing discord: https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

Not really directed at you, AA.  But as described, this sounds like the opposite direction of the bulk of feedback...

 

The "concerns" mentioned aren't mine.  Why would we want to make RoP into a near-clone of the functionality of small breakfrees (30s escape mez), or create more pre-fight hassle with something we must activate before - and get the benefits for - a single spawn?  90s sounds perfect for covering 2-3 spawns with a basic build and average team, or a special case such as an AV or multi-spawn aggro, with some of that "duration redundancy" (wasted time) in between spawns to provide balance.  If overtuning is the concern, many have proposed reductions in the power's effects rather than duration.

 

If duration is being reduced even further in closed beta, and its use cases altered even further from the live version, I foresee the uptake rate dropping like a lead balloon.  If that 2-second activation/rooting time isn't cut to match the activation/rooting of a breakfree, might as well shoot that lead balloon out of a cannon pointed downward.

 

And after the communication delays & troubles regarding the initial change - how does that improve while segregating a different, smaller set of people discussing further changes in a more limited discord / closed beta, instead of directly communicating a proposed change here in the beta forum?  Is this the same process that failed to anticipate our feedback in the first place?

[Grindingsucks]

Nerfing/Buffing any given power is likely the most difficult task to undertake as a dev.  You know that out of all the changes you can make, this is the one that will make some members of the player base howl the most; most usually, when you choose to nerf a power.

 

There are several pool powers that are too potent by comparison with other pool powers of the same tier- or even by comparison with Primary and Secondary powers of equal and higher tiers.  Additionally, many of the prerequisites for choosing those highly potent pool abilities are so weak or uninspiring that you would almost never choose them, except that they are a requirement to get the particular power in question.

 

Haste, of course, is the number one offender here, in terms of overclocked pool powers.  You don't even need any prereqisites in the pool to choose it, so it's only costing you 1 power pick.  Take the power, get yourself five Luck of the Gambler +recharge globals, then slot it with two 50 +5 boosted recharge reductions and multiply your DPS by an order of magnitude.

 

Will you ever use any other powers in the pool?  Flurry is cool, conceptually, but lackluster in play.   The animation takes forever to fire, does poor damage, and looks goofy when you miss.  Superspeed is probably the one other power that finds frequent use, but then most all of the travel powers are QoL picks for moving around the environment that are going to get some use, regardless of the combat bonuses they lack or provide.  Whirlwind I find quite satisfying on certain characters, thematically, but it's endurance intensive and of situational use.  Burnout causes endurance crash and is rendered redundant by your tricked out Haste, in the first place.

 

But, oooh how the powergamers will scream, if you so much as suggest touching haste.  I don't blame the devs for shying away from that potential can of worms and focusing on something else instead.  They perhaps though the (reasonable, IMO- particularly by comparison with other powers in the tier) duration tweak to RoP would cause less of an uproar.

 

But, alas, no.

 

Yes, the devs have asked for feedback.  Yes, you should be firm and honest- even when the feedback is critical.  However, I do recommend evaluating your own emotional state before you post.  If you're feeling particularly angry and/or disgruntled about a certain change, take some deep breaths, relax, then thoughtfully consider how your feelings might be coloring the tenor of the critique you're about to post.  Sometimes your anger can unintentionally bleed out into the critique and make it feel less like a piece of objective feedback and more like a personal attack.

 

In terms of buffing/nerfing pool powers, my own opinions are thus:

 

Sorcery Pool:  I'll start with this one, since it's directly relevant to the topic at hand.  That way you can skip over everything below if you want to.  I love mystic flight and Arcane bolt.  Fun, flavorful, and well-balanced powers.  Rune of Protection is having the duration nerfed to come in line with other pool powers of the same tier.  That's fine.  My problems with this set are actually Spirit Ward and Enflame.  Enflame is quite unsatisfactory.  Either the damage needs to be buffed significantly, or else make it a lvl 4 power and make Spirit Ward (which is more useful) lvl 14.  If you switch them, I think Spirit Ward should then be an AOE able to affect the team.  But, really, probably buffing the dmg on enflame would be sufficient.

All travel powers:  These are being tweaked to my satisfaction in the next game update.

Concealment Pool: This pool is pretty well balanced, IMO, except for grant invisibility.  I feel this should be an AOE effect that can target the whole team.

Fighting Pool:  A popular pool, thanks to Tough and Weave.  I actually think this pool is fairly well balanced.  I might argue for the resist on Tough to be ever so slightly nerfed and the damage on Cross Punch to be ever so slightly buffed.

Flight Pool:  This one is almost entirely about the travel powers which are receiving some very cool tweaks and I'm very satisfied with the proposed changes.  Air Superiority is a wonderful attack power.  I take it a great deal of the time, even on characters that don't fly, due to the very reliable knockdown.  I don't know if I would change it, but I do think it's possibly more of a lvl 14 pick, than a lvl 4 pick, to be honest.  It's just that much more useful.

Leadership Pool:  I like this pool.  It has, of course, Maneuvers and Tactics, some very useful and popular powers.  I also enjoy Assault as a damage buff and for dealing with those annoying Bane Spider Scouts and their Placates.  Victory rush... I dunno.  The good buffs only come when you put down a boss or arch villain, but by then the need is probably past.  It's flavorful and thematic, but I would probably make it a lvl 4 power and bump Maneuvers up to lvl 14.

Teleport Pool:  Man, I love this pool.  One of my faves.  The powers all feel pretty useful and cool (maybe with the singe exception of team teleport- not sure what to do with that one) and I get more mileage out of combat teleport than any other movement power.  This power is sufficiently potent that it probably needs to be moved to lvl 14.  I would switch it with Team teleport (which I would move to lvl 4.  It seems counter-intuitive, I know- but Team teleport is just not as powerful/useful).

Leaping Pool:  I'm actually pretty satisfied with this one.  The powers are useful, but not overpowered.  The upcoming tweaks provide some nice changes that don't unbalance the set compared to other power pools.  Good as-is, I guess.

Medicine Pool:  I'll be honest, I don't really have enough experience with this set to offer constructive criticism.  The pool just doesn't fit, thematically, with the kinds of characters that I make to really have had any reason to take it, so I'll decline to opine on this one.

Presence Pool:  A cool, flavorful set.  I would take this on a lot of characters, except for one thing:  The duration of intimidate and invoke panic.  These need a duration buff to make them desirable.  Obviously, primary and secondary fear effect powers should be better, but not quite THAT much better.  I need a little more, here.  Other than that, I think the set is fine.

Experimentation Pool:  I'm wary of commenting on this one, as outside of Toxic Dart and Sonic Speed, I haven't used the powers much.  I love Toxic Dart.  I like to slot it with a hold proc and make a combination taser/tranq dart out of it.

Force of Will Pool:  It's fine, except for one thing:  Project Will and Wall of Force need their animation times reduced very badly.  They just fire too slowly to be useful picks.

 

[PirateCrew]

5 hours ago, America's Angel said:

For what?

For any of the use cases for which this power was take on Live, and for any of the use cases that have been raised during this discussion of what RoP *could* be.  Example use cases:

 

Proactive resistance buff

Decent on Live, subpar on Beta.  Duration is adequate so as not to feel too clicky.  Resistance numbers are fair and broad enough.  But does require up to two undesired power picks, heavy internal slotting, and heavy global IO +Rech to work at a level considered worthwhile, when compared to alternatives (play an armored AT, stack defense via IOs, 100% uptime epic armors, P2Win 8hr temps, Eye of the Magus).  It resistive nature often limits its usefulness for anyone worried about getting hit at all (squishies who are easily debuffed), anyone with low res cap (scraps/squishies already employing tough + res armors + res set bonuses), or already near a higher res cap (res-based tanks, certain brutes).

 

Proactive anti-mez

Decent on Live, subpar on Beta.  Again, duration is the key.  The resistance is a nice backup, but not critical to employing this strategy.  Still has the downside of forced power picks, but internal slotting can be relaxed.  Heavy global IO +Rech slotting required to make this feel worthwhile due to the long recharge, but at least the duration is fairly satisfying.  Only alternative that works across a similar level range is a P2Win temp, though at least it's a superior option for continuous mez protection.  Its pricing is rather steep, and too easily overcome in common situations, for those who agree that non-armored ATs deserve some form of basic mez protection (several alternatives mentioned in this thread), but free basic mez protection + either (breakfrees OR Live RoP OR a reactive RoP) would give all non-armored chars a reasonable path to 80% of the feeling of power/freemy-fun that armored ATs can get without reaching beyond their powersets.

 

Reactive anti-mez, resistance less important

Subpar on Live, somewhat subpar on beta.  Duration of 60-90 seconds ok but not optimal, activation time too long.  Recharge too long unless well slotted and IO'd for +Rech.  Altered resist mechanics on Beta makes it more useful, but then it's not being used for res in this use case anyway - so more of a nice-to-have.  However, in Live or Beta form, IF combined with P2Win temp, becomes an acceptable level of mez protection.  However, once again, non-armor ATs are forced to pay through the nose (Sorcery power picks, IOs, Inf-per-hour) for merely adequate mez protection, leaving them to still be inferior in power/freemy-fun to armored ATs.  Solvable through giving basic mez protection to non-armor ATs (see above).  A 30-60s duration RoP can then function as a second, reactive layer of protection, or be tossed aside (likely supplanted by breakfrees for this use case) for anyone who doesn't want the resistance feature.

 

Reactive resistance buff, anti-mez less important or unneeded

Somewhat subpar on Live, subpar on beta.  Once again suffers a bit from long activation/rooting; the Beta adjustment to resist-when-mezzed does nothing for this use case on an armored, unmezzed character...thus only helping a non-armored AT, who is far less likely to be following this use case in the first place.  For those trying to meet this use case with RoP, there are often easier-to-obtain alternative powers within their main powersets, or the permanent (lower) IO set bonuses for resist.  Team buffing also often removes the need to consider RoP at all, since with a low enough frequency of need for buffed res, those rare events are countered by inspirations and Eye of the Magus to easily provide superior or capped protection, without RoP's costs (power picks, internal slotting, losses to build from shifting away from Dmg+Def+Rech).

 

All-around anti-mez + res boost for squishies (for a sorta-Sentinel mode)

Decent on Live, subpar on Beta.  RoP leaves immense time gaps in protection.  Only viable when partly filled at L45+ with Hybrid Melee and heavy +Rech slotting.  Requires fairly dramatic sacrifices (power picks, incarnate choices, IOing) that give up Damage and Defense to achieve some measure of parity with armored ATs, and deviate from the CoH Dmg+Def+Rech formula we've been trained to understand and prefer.

 

****

Ultimately, because RoP is offering to serve too many use cases in a single power, either all use cases will be served in equally poor ways (and no one bothers to take RoP any more), or they're all served well and "somebody" decides that is "overtuned."  To resolve: those "somebodies" change their mind about "overtuning", or RoP's use cases and effects must be spread to other powers (like a basic mez protection system for squishies, other powers in Sorcery, strong mez resist in all thematic powers...).

[arthurh35353]

Hmm. Would it be heretical to have Rune of Protection Power have two different uses (and possible timers) depending on mezz status?

 

1) Not mezzed: Beta's +Resist and Mez protection with the new longer timer.

 

2) Mezzed and normally unable to do anything: Able to click on RoP so that it grants Mez Protection and minimal resistance on a 120 (non-enhanceable) second timer. Still triggers the full out of combat (aka not-mezzed) countdown, but is now useful to breakfree fairly often, but only up 50% of the time.

 

Too silly? To hard? Just throwing stuff out to see if anything might be good.

Edited April 5, 2021 by arthurh35353
name fix.

[scottocamp]

1 hour ago, Grindingsucks said:

Teleport Pool:  Man, I love this pool. 

 

 

Me too.  It is fun. 

 

I only have RoP on 2 of my 20 characters.  So the change to RoP has little direct impact on me.  My hope is simply to see all the Pool Powers become as useful and as fun as the Teleport Pool is now.  Wouldn't it be a good thing if you were just as excited about the Medicine Pool or the Concealment Pool?  Making the unpopular Sorcery Pool even less appealing just seems like a strange move. 

[ForeverLaxx]

20 hours ago, America's Angel said:

There is a further change being trialed on the closed beta server that goes some way to improve these concerns

Just to be clear here, we only have access to the version of the powers on Live and Open Beta and can only comment on how they exist in the manner we can access. Nebulous "future changes" are meaningless until they're in our hands.

 

Trying to assuage our concerns and declare our problems with the reasoning behind these changes void by coyly declaring our "concerns" will be improved in some future edition does nothing.

 

Those adjustments aren't here for us to look at, and considering your stance in this thread that all adjustments to this power have been "justified" by RoP being "overpowered", I'm going to hazard a guess that I and others will not be enjoying whatever adjustments are being made. The power is being changed based on faulty, suspect logic -- adjustments to that power getting changed that still result in a net nerf aren't going to suddenly change our minds and agree the power needs to be nerfed.

 

The power may be strong in a vacuum, but this game isn't played in a vacuum with every power in isolation of the others. RoP is just one tool in an entire toolkit built around trying to do something different than just throwing a ton of +Defense set bonuses at a character and ends up still being weaker than that. Nerfing it makes zero sense no matter how often you want to keep claiming otherwise.

 

EDIT: What I find of particular interest is that the devs are using this "the game isn't played in a vacuum" argument regarding travel powers. Now, obviously, I'm not advocating that Fly have the same cap as Super Speed because I agree the game isn't played in a vacuum and verticality has value you can't really put into a spreadsheet. But then we come back to RoP, which is being nerfed because of the spreadsheet vacuum and I have to ask how that happens on a dev team that must know RoP, despite looking "too good" in a spreadsheet, is still worse overall than the standard as they clearly demonstrate an understanding of this problem when evaluating travel powers.

Edited April 4, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[Dracomicon]

Thank you HC devs for I was expecting a more significant change to this power. I put RoP in all my characters that can fit it in. Most of my characters this breaks the theme of the character but I am willing to do that and pay the three powers needed to get it for it is just that good of a power.

 

On Beta it gives me more options in leveling from 1-50 as to if I will use it reactively or proactively. In most cases it has not changed the basic way that I play, and feels more like a buff with the resistance now active when using it when mezzed. Only when running farms do I notice a change as there is a little more risk on my squishies if my timing is off.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

18 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

...

 

EDIT: What I find of particular interest is that the devs are using this "the game isn't played in a vacuum" argument regarding travel powers. Now, obviously, I'm not advocating that Fly have the same cap as Super Speed because I agree the game isn't played in a vacuum and verticality has value you can't really put into a spreadsheet. But then we come back to RoP, which is being nerfed because of the spreadsheet vacuum and I have to ask how that happens on a dev team that must know RoP, despite looking "too good" in a spreadsheet, is still worse overall than the standard as they clearly demonstrate an understanding of this problem when evaluating travel powers.

 

There may be 3 interrelated reasons why RoP seems like an "obvious nerf" power to the devs based on a "spreadsheet evaluation", while travel powers are getting a better done "how does this affect gameplay" evaluation.

One reason for the "spreadsheet evaluation" of RoP being given an outsized role in the decision process could be that RoP has T9 armors as a set of powers against which direct comparisons can be made, while travel powers do not have any direct comparisons outside their own group. Since the T9 armors are in such a sad state that they're mostly bypassed RoP in its current form would naturally stand out merely because it doesn't obviously suck. 

 

Another reason could be that travel powers are easier to evaluate on a holistic, "how do they affect gameplay?" basis, compared to something as interwoven with all the dimensions of character sustain as RoP; the number of AT combinations available doesn't make that evaluation any easier, either. Errors being made by the devs at evaluating the holistic gameplay effects of RoP in its current form probably stem mostly from the high level of complexity associated with that evaluation. 

 

A third potential reason for the exaggerated role of the spreadsheet evaluation of RoP lies in the echoes of original design choices back in the early 2000s about how squishies are supposed to incur a (much) higher level of vulnerability to mez than their non-squishy counterparts. A corollary belief could be that powers which provide broad coverage against mez for squishies either should not exist at all or, at best, should not be readily available and should be expensive to choose. "After all, if squishies aren't consistently vulnerable to mez, can they even be called squishies at that point" could be one strain of thinking connected to that point of view. 

 

It still makes sense to point out the disconnect in the devs' thinking about this, though. It's accurate and a good insight, at the end of the day. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Neiska]

My thoughts -

 

I didn't even use RoP for status, my main use was using it combined with barrier for durability on a squishy AT, such as blaster or some corruptor setups. If I can't survive basic combat, the last thing I was worried about would be status protection.

 

Before it was 90 seconds uptime, with a 600 second downtime. With enough recharge you could cut that down quite a bit, but even with as much recharge as I could manage I believe there was a 24 second gap where both RoP and Barrier would be down, which basically meant instant death. Now if my math is right, that gap could be as long as 54 seconds, but I have yet to sit down and actually do it ingame to find out. But either way now even if you got every scrap of recharge that was possible to get, RoP's duration/cooldown now isn't enough to rely on to be used as a resistance buff, rather than a "status protection" panic button. 

 

I also used it as an additional layer of protection on my Widow, for times when her resistances got overwhelmed.

 

I do understand the change, they wanted it to be more of a panic/emergency button than a buff. My issue is that now its more difficult to make a quasi durable offense AT, at least for people who used Sorcery pool.

 

I also now wonder as to what qualifies as OP, or where is the line drawn. I mean, a fine argument could be made for nerfing CC and Debuff abilities as well as those are OP at endgame. Or fighting pool itself, as more builds take it, than builds that don't, specifically for weave and tough. I mean, if we are going by how many people take X pools as for what is OP or not, then I would take a look at Fighting, Leadership, and Combat Jump pools as nearly every melee and many non-melee builds all take those 3 pools. 

 

Now I am not arguing for those pools to get nerfed, I am only using them as an example for context. It just seems like the "finish line" so to speak isn't equal for all builds/playstyles/game mechanics, and that there are far too many "shoe in" powers that aren't mandatory per say, but they might as well be.

 

My two cents for what its worth.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Given that RoP provides sustain which is inferior to meta in endgame, but still workable, retaining its current duration in endgame wouldn't be in any way OP; in fact, to the extent that it increases build variety RoP in its current form helps to make endgame more enjoyable. But, some concerns have been expressed that RoP while leveling is OP. Rather than debate this last point, there is a workaround that can be put in place. 

 

If RoP seems overpowered to the devs while characters level up, even though it only provides inferior-to-meta functionality in endgame, RoP duration could be nerfed while leveling, but remain at 90 seconds when at level 50. It could works as follows:

 

RoP duration = 60 seconds + (character level - 20)

 

Thus, duration for RoP = 60 seconds at level 20, rising by 1 second per level until it reaches 90 seconds at level 50. 

 

Key attributes of a multitude of powers change as characters level. Having duration also tied to level makes sense for powers for which duration a huge component of a power's effectiveness, as is the case with RoP. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Myrmidon]

On 4/4/2021 at 1:54 PM, scottocamp said:

Wouldn't it be a good thing if you were just as excited about the Medicine Pool or the Concealment Pool? 

Presence Pool.

[golstat2003]

On 4/4/2021 at 2:54 PM, scottocamp said:

 

Me too.  It is fun. 

 

I only have RoP on 2 of my 20 characters.  So the change to RoP has little direct impact on me.  My hope is simply to see all the Pool Powers become as useful and as fun as the Teleport Pool is now.  Wouldn't it be a good thing if you were just as excited about the Medicine Pool or the Concealment Pool?  Making the unpopular Sorcery Pool even less appealing just seems like a strange move. 

 

On some builds the concealment pool DOES get me excited.I have the concealment pool on several of my characters that I focus on recharge over defense. I use the pool as LOTG Recharge mules.

Edited April 6, 2021 by golstat2003

[Puma]

On 3/30/2021 at 6:20 PM, Jimmy said:

This right here is very important. You're correct that this is the argument many opponents of this change are making.

 

But this argument also requires that requires you to admit RoP is overtuned, and that it deserves to be overtuned because of its lacklustre prerequisites. And that right there is the part we disagree with. It shouldn't be balanced around carrying three power picks.

 

This is one of the first things I mentioned to Powerhouse after seeing this change, but I quickly realised the problem wasn't RoP being nerfed, it's the other powers which need to be buffed. Again, this is just my opinion and not a confirmation of out plans, but the rest of the pool really does need some love.

 

A power doesn't need to be highly picked in order for it to be deemed as overperforming. I explain this clearly in my post: A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated. Again, as covered in my post, mez in general is a systems-level discussion. Not something to be determined or solved by a single power.

Rune of Protection is - again, as explained in my post - now more useful for low-mid range builds in situationally dealing with crowd control and dangerous situations. This adjustment is being overlooked due to the impact this change has on absolutely maxed out high-end builds, which isn't surprising given that more casual players are much less likely to frequent this forum.

 

 

I agree with this, but let's try to maintain the topic for a little longer before derailing. We're only on page 2!

 

 

I'm curious. Why do Patron Pets require you to have picked two other powers from a patron before you take them? 
 
 

Isn't it precisely because those powers are supposed to be so "special" that they require a bit of "sacrifice" to get? 
 
To me, what you're saying here goes against an aspect of this game's design that has been around forever:  The later/more effort a power takes to get access to, the stronger and more effective that power will be. 
  

We've seen that in pool powersets forever.  
 
As for "it's better for mid range builds"....there's a real design problem here, too.   Since it requires you to take multiple powers before you get access to it, then if you're expecting players to sacrifice selections from their main power choices at -the very levels- where those powers are still unlocking, it better be worth putting off those power choices.

There seems to be a real conflict in the logic here:  The power shouldn't be anything really special, but it also should be made designed so players can use it at tiers where, taking it at those levels, would really cost them three very likely better choices from their main pools.   

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, Puma said:

I'm curious. Why do Patron Pets require you to have picked two other powers from a patron before you take them? 

Isn't it precisely because those powers are supposed to be so "special" that they require a bit of "sacrifice" to get? 
To me, what you're saying here goes against an aspect of this game's design that has been around forever:  The later/more effort a power takes to get access to, the stronger and more effective that power will be. 

We've seen that in pool powersets forever.  
As for "it's better for mid range builds"....there's a real design problem here, too.   Since it requires you to take multiple powers before you get access to it, then if you're expecting players to sacrifice selections from their main power choices at -the very levels- where those powers are still unlocking, it better be worth putting off those power choices.
There seems to be a real conflict in the logic here:  The power shouldn't be anything really special, but it also should be made designed so players can use it at tiers where, taking it at those levels, would really cost them three very likely better choices from their main pools.   

Those aren't requirements, or sacrifices, or costs. They are called choices. As in, a player gets to choose what they want to do with their build, what is important and what is not.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Puma]

6 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Those aren't requirements, or sacrifices, or costs. They are called choices. As in, a player gets to choose what they want to do with their build, what is important and what is not.

That's my point.  A power is a CHOICE. And if you expect players to CHOOSE a power that requires two other, often unwanted, powers to unlock, then there should be greater incentive to make that choice than a standard power that doesn't have that requirement.  
 
In my opinion, like Patron Pets, higher tier pool powers should all function at least on par with their standard, non-pool equivalents for two reasons: the increased "choice cost" to unlock them and their purpose, which is to either fill a build gap for a player's main powers OR to thematically support a player's concept.   I see no reason why those powers should be "weaker" in any way. Especially when the logic seems so contradictory here. 

[Glacier Peak]

21 minutes ago, Puma said:

That's my point.  A power is a CHOICE. And if you expect players to CHOOSE a power that requires two other, often unwanted, powers to unlock, then there should be greater incentive to make that choice than a standard power that doesn't have that requirement.  
 
In my opinion, like Patron Pets, higher tier pool powers should all function at least on par with their standard, non-pool equivalents for two reasons: the increased "choice cost" to unlock them and their purpose, which is to either fill a build gap for a player's main powers OR to thematically support a player's concept.   I see no reason why those powers should be "weaker" in any way. Especially when the logic seems so contradictory here. 

Then we are in agreement. Players make choices, good stuff! 'Hear, Hear!' @srmalloy

 

Edit: Oh... you used "requires" again, I think you missed my point. Choice, whether balanced against risk versus reward or out of shear chaos, regardless of cost to benefit, players are given choices. 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Saw it on the second glance

[Arcanum]

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Please click here to discuss the Sorcery Power Pool Revamp from Build 4

 

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