A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Hew]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Scorpion Shield seems to fit "A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated"

Strawman.

 

Scorpion shield requires a lockout.

 

RoP does not. You can take both if you felt like it. The lockout makes it more palatable, because other fun epics cant be taken, and frankly, life is not all about scorpion shield. Indeed, there are reasons to take pretty much any of the epic pools (more so the patron pools than the regulars, but not by a whole lot)

[CaptainLupis]

5 minutes ago, Hew said:

Strawman.

 

Scorpion shield requires a lockout.

 

RoP does not. You can take both if you felt like it. The lockout makes it more palatable, because other fun epics cant be taken, and frankly, life is not all about scorpion shield. Indeed, there are reasons to take pretty much any of the epic pools (more so the patron pools than the regulars, but not by a whole lot)

Doesn't RoP lock you out of the other origin pools if you take it?

[Hew]

43 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Doesn't RoP lock you out of the other origin pools if you take it?

But not epics. And from general discussion, people seem to be pretty non-plussed about the content in other origin pools. There has been an awful lot of "why nerf rop, why not buff the other t5s"....

[CaptainLupis]

1 minute ago, Hew said:

But not epics. And from general discussion, people seem to be pretty non-plussed about the content in other origin pools. There has been an awful lot of "why nerf rop, why not buff the other t5s"....

But it does require a lock out.

[Hew]

2 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

But it does require a lock out.

Which is all but meaningless given the effectiveness of other pools in comparision. Do you drive a car? Or a bicycle with one wheel.

 

Origin pools were never intended to be on par with patron pools or epics. They were meant as flavor with some utility. If you look through the powers in depth, it is clear that is the case.

 

Instead, RoP is so far ahead of simple utility that it becomes a cornerstone of builds that it breaks that mold like a bolt of lightning.

 

[CaptainLupis]

Just now, Hew said:

Which is all but meaningless given the effectiveness of other pools in comparision. Do you drive a car? Or a bicycle with one wheel.

 

Origin pools were never intended to be on par with patron pools or epics. They were meant as flavor with some utility. If you look through the powers in depth, it is clear that is the case.

 

Instead, RoP is so far ahead of simple utility that it becomes a cornerstone of builds that it breaks that mold like a bolt of lightning.

 

You didn't specify whether the lock out was significant or not, you said it does not require one. It does.

[Hew]

7 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

You didn't specify whether the lock out was significant or not, you said it does not require one. It does.

Make you a deal. Lets have the lockout shared between epics and origin pools.

[CaptainLupis]

Just now, Hew said:

Make you a deal. Lets have the lockout shared between epics and origin pools.

Or you could just admit that what you posted when you were dismissing someone else's argument was factually incorrect.

[Coyote]

7 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Nerf it into what, all brawl-level attacks?

 

No, the Tier 9 will be like Flurry.

[Peacemoon]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

I agree, a proper solution to the problems with Mez are complex.

 

But in another post, I actually thought of a hack that could fix Mez, albeit not as good as a complete redesign but in a minimally disruptive way.  The way it was fixed for one AT: Blasters.  Allowing them to use their Primary T1 and T2 and Secondary T1 attacks even while Mezzed.  And the ATO Enhancement set Defiant Barrage including a special proc that builds up a Mez protection shield.  This way Mez doesn't take away all of Blasters' agency and they can react and burn their way out of it.

 

 

Copying the fix for Blasters to other ATs isn't the best solution for Mez, but it is a minimum modification solution that's already implemented for Blasters and working.  It would need adjustment, but it could be made to work without radically breaking the existing game.

 

And fixing Mez has to be at or near the top of a lot players' personal City Fixes Wishlists.  So how about it?

I think your fixes have merit but very focused on blasters. 
I would like to see more use of mezz resistance personally. I find accelerate metabolism’s mezz resist really makes it more manageable for my Defender, without giving me outright protection and immunity. When I’m running it I still worry about mezzes, but I know I won’t be held indefinitely.

 

and I think that is they key, not that we get mezzed, but that the durations are too long on players.

 

So my suggestion would be to give ‘squishes’ some better way of getting mezz resistance, and perhaps some type of inherent where you get extra mezz resistance for a short time after being mezzed once. To try reduce the occasions where you are chain mezzed to death unless you have complete immunity.

 

This still makes being mezzed dangerous, but also might make the mezz difficulty a lot less binary depending on whether you are immune or not.

 

and then of the back of that, it would allow powers like RoP to flourish without them being such an absolute game changer as to whether you have them or not.

[Carnifax]

The problem with squishies & Mez goes deeper than "I don't want to be mezzed".

 

Fact is that if quite a few of my squishies get mezzed then they also drop a fair few of the toggles they use to live.

 

Examples : Darkest Night. Entangling Aura. Livegiving Spores. Spore Cloud. Pretty much half of Rad. Arctic Air. Hotfeet. Electrics aura thing.

 

So if you're intent on making Sorcery as banal as the rest of the Origin powers (as Sai says this seems to be an ongoing thing since Toxic Dart and Weaken thingy have also been nerfed to uselessness) can you at least switch these to "surpressed when mezzed".

 

That way we can all go back to ignoring the Origin powers and all just pick Fighting, Leadership & Hasten, as seems to be the developer intent (why did you even bother, they've ended up as a waste of resources to make 3 more pointless pools)

[StratoNexus]

10 hours ago, America's Angel said:

The reason for 600s recharge is because that makes the minimum recharge possible 120s. This is by design, because it means the power can never have an uptime greater than 50% at the recharge cap.

That is an interesting premise.

 

As I stated previously, I think <50% uptime is good goal, although I disagree with premise that we should look at the recharge cap for that. I do think a power like this should have some downtime, even at the cap, but 50% seems more like a number we want to stay under in general, not absolutely. The vast majority of characters at the recharge cap are going to somehow have additional help beyond +recharge anyway, You don't get there solo for long periods of time.

 

That said, even though my suggestion reduces the uptime percentage, it sought to keep the absolute amount of downtime similar to the current live version, and that downtime amount may have been the actual primary target of the change, rather than uptime percentage. At the 4 levels of recharge I used in my original post, live downtimes are 210 seconds for the generic build, 110 at mid-tier, 80 at the high-recharge, and 55 for the very high recharge (at the cap it would be 30 seconds). My suggestion (60 second duration/ 480 second recharge) ends up at 180 seconds down for the generic build, 100 at mid-tier, 76 at the high recharge, and 56 for the very high recharge (and 36 at the cap). If the goal of the change was to significantly increase the downtime rather than to make it a more active power with less overall uptime, then you are correct, they would have to reduce the duration if they would reduce the recharge. I am not positive increased downtime is the primary goal (they added the resists to the click break-free aspect, which tells me they would like people using it reactively more often and the reduced recharge encourages that too, while still reducing overall uptime). I do not feel that 60 seconds up and 110 seconds down (current test in a high recharge build) is necessary compared to my suggestion of 60 seconds up and 76 seconds down at that same level of recharge. Is that extra 34 seconds down an important part of the power reduction? Possibly, but not necessarily.

 

Jimmy said

Quote

Something which I think is being overlooked is the impact of the other adjustment to RoP: You now get the full effect even when using it to break mez. This is actually great for lower-end usage of the power. Average builds never had it permanently chaining with Melee Hybrid, and using it reactively to break mez / deal with a tough engagement is a more realistic use case  for them.

RoP is now much stronger for this purpose, and is situated to be used in a far more active and dynamic way - with actual decision making - instead of just existing to be chained in order to obsolete a part of the game.

 

As far as mez overall, my interaction with Mez is biased by my own gameplay, which heavily leans on my decent understanding of when and which mezzes are actually a problem. Mez is not a zero-sum game for me, I can usually choose not to take a breakfree for most mezzes and come through a fight OK, but I also usually know which mezzes I really need to get out of RTFN. And I sometimes am wrong. I have taken a breakfree, only to have my team back me up right when I needed it, thus "wasting" the BF. I have also chosen to wait out the mez and been wrong that I would survive through. That is not zero-sum; my choices generally make a difference while also not being absolute (sometimes I make the "right" choice and it ends up not right).

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

(why did you even bother, they've ended up as a waste of resources to make 3 more pointless pools)

 

Hey now, experimentation is cool despite the dart nerf!

 

I got nothing for the others. My khelds take force of will but that's it. Sorc is just done after this.

[arcane]

I see the many posts of some users including myself outlining the many ways one can deal with mez have continued to be effectively ignored by users intent on believing that mez is a bigger problem than it is.

[Linea]

Instead of nuking rune to make us pick other less useful or non-existent options, give us more options to fill the same hole in different and interesting ways.  Then let us choose.

 

I'd rather see a slightly less effective rune with the longer duration, as I posted before.

I'd also like to see the other origin pools buffed.  It should be a hard choice, which one I prefer.

I'd like to see other mez protection options in other/new origin pools.   Something like /Martial's mez clicky for blasters comes to mind as one example.  That one would be perfect for low end builds.   I'd like to see even other options as well.

 

[Carnifax]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Hey now, experimentation is cool despite the dart nerf!

 

I got nothing for the others. My khelds take force of will but that's it. Sorc is just done after this.

What did you manage to fit Experimentation in to. I have a stalled Dark/Tactical Arrow blaster where it was kind of neat thematically but TA changed and I never continued with him (I do like the fact I now have an oil slick with Lotg slotted in it though)

 

Forcefield and maybe a Time mastermind I could see it being useful for doses of suped up shields.

[Joltrabbit]

So if T5s are supposed to be 60 seconds, does mean Presence's Unrelenting is now a 60-second buff? I think it's currently 30 seconds of use where if you die during you can rez yourself.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

What did you manage to fit Experimentation in to. I have a stalled Dark/Tactical Arrow blaster where it was kind of neat thematically but TA changed and I never continued with him (I do like the fact I now have an oil slick with Lotg slotted in it though)

 

Forcefield and maybe a Time mastermind I could see it being useful for doses of suped up shields.

I’ve used Experimentation far more often than Sorcery or Force of Will. A preventive medicine mule, a super speed plus longer range combat teleport, and a +dam/+tohit/+rech buff? How this pool is subpar I have no idea. I’m sure I have it on over a dozen 50’s.

[ScarySai]

11 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

What did you manage to fit Experimentation in to.

I can share via PMs later, but would rather not derail.

[Blackbird71]

53 minutes ago, arcane said:

I see the many posts of some users including myself outlining the many ways one can deal with mez have continued to be effectively ignored by users intent on believing that mez is a bigger problem than it is.

 

I believe the HC team have stated numerous times that these threads are for feedback regarding the Page 2 changes; not for discussing various builds, power options, status mitigation, etc. available on live and not directly affected by Page 2 changes.  In that regard, consider that people may be ignoring these posts so as not to derail the thread and make more moderation necessary.

[BRADICAL]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

I see the many posts of some users including myself outlining the many ways one can deal with mez have continued to be effectively ignored by users intent on believing that mez is a bigger problem than it is.

The solutions are inelegant and dismissive of a fundamental problem. Break frees, defense amps and Clarion are the other widely available options here, and they're all either annoying to maintain, an outright tax on your gameplay or require you to be level 50 and sacrifice what could otherwise be a more useful destiny power.

Either way, though, these are the solutions we're stuck with in the absence of a functional RoP. I second Linea's proposal to at least consider bringing down the effectiveness of RoP instead of the duration, keeping the mez protection uptime intact for the sake of those archetypes who actually need it, and to consider other viable alternatives for the future. A power like Experimental Injection being self-targetable would actually be a pretty good example of a way to expand on that diversity and make that pool more appealing at the same time.

As it stands, incoming mez is only a problem if you don't have protection to it. This applies to 4 archetypes out of 15, with a couple of edge cases like human warshades and non-perma dominators. Those archetypes are still going to find a way to get that protection if they care about their long-term survivability at all, which usually means being able to hold your own solo in the middle of a crowded +4/x8 room. RoP facilitates this in a way that the other options don't. There is no deeper game here: in CoH you either have that protection, or you don't.

Food for thought: knockback as a mechanic presents itself somewhere in almost every enemy group, and is hugely common throughout the game. In many cases all it takes is a single slot in any number of powers to obviate that mechanic, and rightly so.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I see the many posts of some users including myself outlining the many ways one can deal with mez have continued to be effectively ignored by users intent on believing that mez is a bigger problem than it is.

I spent a long time explaining to a certain someone the numerous mez options in another thread, so I in particular am quite aware. It's worth noting this rune change is frowned upon for various other reasons other than whatever mez application it might've had, and I see many posts talking about that. If you think that addressing mez alone will convince others that the nerf isn't that troublesome, you'd be wrong as a result.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, BRADICAL said:

The solutions are inelegant and dismissive of a fundamental problem. Break frees, defense amps and Clarion are the other widely available options here, and they're all either annoying to maintain, an outright tax on your gameplay or require you to be level 50 and sacrifice what could otherwise be a more useful destiny power.
 

You didn’t read the posts then because those are a fraction of the mitigation tools that were explained several times. 

[BRADICAL]

3 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I spent a long time explaining to a certain someone the numerous mez options in another thread, so I in particular am quite aware. It's worth noting this rune change is frowned upon for various other reasons other than whatever mez application it might've had, and I see many posts talking about that. If you think that addressing mez alone will convince others that the nerf isn't that troublesome, you'd be wrong as a result.

I'm definitely not happy with the idea of lowering the resistance component either, but I can at least understand the justification for that in light of its performance in the handful of cases where it is exceptionally strong (SR tankers, widows, and frankly most defenders getting a whopping 40% res all out of it). Whether that is in itself overpowered or merely serves to level the playing field with characters that have native access to that level of resistance (and have no use for RoP as a result) is debatable.

Cutting that buff in half would sting, but I tend to run most of my squishy characters with every inspiration turned off except the orange ones anyway, and I'd probably just see myself popping a couple more often than usual. Besides that, it would line up more evenly with the +res from melee at that point anyway. Significantly less annoying than plugging wider mez protection holes with break frees.

[Myrmidon]

47 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

I believe the HC team have stated numerous times that these threads are for feedback regarding the Page 2 changes; not for discussing various builds, power options, status mitigation, etc. available on live and not directly affected by Page 2 changes.  In that regard, consider that people may be ignoring these posts so as not to derail the thread and make more moderation necessary.

Actually, discussion of the other Origin pools for comparison would definitely fall into the category of feedback.