Sorcery Pool Updates in Issue 27, Page 2

[Parabola]

6 hours ago, America's Angel said:

I know this isn't 100% sorcery related. But I've seen a few people comment about armour T9s being given the same treatment as Rune, and I have to object strongly to that.

Invulnerability, Elec Armour, Energy Aura, and Ninjitsu are not in need of buffs. (Super Reflexes possibly is, although plenty of people manage it fine in PVE.)

 

PVP players of those sets completely rely on the T9s to survive.

 

So, giving PVE players a buff they don't need, by changing powers that PVP players absolutely need, seems pointless at best, and actively harmful at worst.

 

There are some parts of the T9s that could use tweaking. But this is not the place for that conversation. I just wanted to point out that while I love the new Rune changes. (Both in PVE and PVP). I'd hate to see them ported over to the armour T9s.

I have no experience of pvp and am almost allergic to it as a concept so take this with a pinch of salt. But ... if the armour tier 9's in their current form are indespensible to pvp I would ask the question whether that doesn't say more about how pvp currently functions rather than the tier 9's themselves. It's always worth taking a step back and checking whether the wider picture is itself a problem as two wrongs rarely make a satisfactory right.

 

In any event it would be perfectly possible to have these powers working differently in pve to pvp. They may be working well in the current pvp environment but they really aren't offering all that much in pve.

[Cheli]

The change to RoP is still silly, but if it's going to happen regardless, this is better I guess. Gives you better things to use your slots on. I'm still not happy about having to respec all the characters I took it on, though...

 

This along with the reasoning given and the TW changes has me really fearful that the dev team has an axe to grind with high recharge and it has me a little uncomfortable about the future of builds and mechanics in general that benefit greatly from high-recharge builds or strategies. I'd rather not see hasten or permadom, perma-lightform or high-end regeneration builds get tossed to the breeze in future patches.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Cheli

[America's Angel]

 @Carnifax @Troo @parabola

Made a thread for the T9 chat so we don't clog up this one:
 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

If only spirit ward could be used on yourself sorcery would be absolutely amazing.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If only spirit ward could be used on yourself sorcery would be absolutely amazing.

That would be completely overpowered.

[Mezmera]

18 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That would be completely overpowered.

 

You can always adjust the values in the mechanic so it totals out to be strong for the both of you but not OP.  

 

Make it still the leash mechanic where it's now enticing for you to stay next to your doggo.  Kind of like a couple jailbirds escaping captivity but chained to the hip.  

 

[Hew]

There are a million and one powers and reasons to go with them as to why we cant self-target powers. Look at pretty much every single buff support set, and you will find powers you cant target yourself with, because if you could, they would be game breakingly strong.

[Mezmera]

39 minutes ago, Hew said:

There are a million and one powers and reasons to go with them as to why we cant self-target powers. Look at pretty much every single buff support set, and you will find powers you cant target yourself with, because if you could, they would be game breakingly strong.

 

Time?  They let powerboosted Time self buffs be a thing... 

 

Couldn't have added a smidge of resistance into that defense self buff power so it didn't get abused by powerboosting?  

 

Do we play the same game?  There's all kinds of self buffing + team buffing support sets. 

[Hew]

35 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Time?  They let powerboosted Time self buffs be a thing... 

 

Couldn't have added a smidge of resistance into that defense self buff power so it didn't get abused by powerboosting?  

 

Do we play the same game?  There's all kinds of self buffing + team buffing support sets. 

Time buffs were significantly weakened in i27 page 1 with the changes to incarnates and their boosts to +special, and included as far as i remember, direct effect on how strong farsight. Hint, it isnt as strong with a million buffs as it was prior to i27.

 

edit: From the patch notes: 

• Incarnate > Destiny > Clarion: Fixed an issue that caused Clarion's buff to increase the strength of other +special buffs

Edited April 14, 2021 by Hew

[Mezmera]

Just now, Hew said:

Time buffs were significantly weakened in i27 page 1 with the changes to incarnates and their boosts to +special, and included as far as i remember, direct effect on how strong farsight. Hint, it isnt as strong with a million buffs as it was prior to i27.

 

 

Still doesn't change the epic power boosts they can get.  

 

What of Fulcrum Shift, AM, Arctic Fog, Shadow Fall, Emp buffs, Dispersion Bubble, etc?

[Wavicle]

Just now, Mezmera said:

 

Still doesn't change the epic power boosts they can get.  

 

What of Fulcrum Shift, AM, Arctic Fog, Shadow Fall, Emp buffs, Dispersion Bubble, etc?

In theory self affecting and non-self affecting buffs are balanced against each other via strength, recharge, threat, and more.

 

In theory. In practice I'm not so sure they are balanced.
 

[Mezmera]

14 minutes ago, Hew said:

edit: From the patch notes: 

• Incarnate > Destiny > Clarion: Fixed an issue that caused Clarion's buff to increase the strength of other +special buffs

 

You do realize Corruptors and Defenders can get power boost from the Soul Mastery yes?  It also comes with Soul Drain and a nice resistance shield in the pool as well should you find those things attractive.

 

The "why for not's" don't hold much weight when you can manipulate the values to your liking.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[Cheli]

 

44 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Still doesn't change the epic power boosts they can get.  

 

What of Fulcrum Shift, AM, Arctic Fog, Shadow Fall, Emp buffs, Dispersion Bubble, etc?

 

How is a defender or corruptor using these on themselves any more "overpowered" than using them on the team's scrapper or blaster? Is it going to break the game if a controller or defender can use Fortitude on themselves in order to still do less damage than everyone else while playing alone?

 

Why does it seem everyone is religious dedicated to ghettoizing these ATs? I just don't get it.

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Cheli said:

 

 

How is a defender or corruptor using these on themselves any more "overpowered" than using them on the team's scrapper or blaster? Is it going to break the game if a controller or defender can use Fortitude on themselves in order to still do less damage than everyone else while playing alone?

 

Why does it seem everyone is religious dedicated to ghettoizing these ATs? I just don't get it.

 

I was making the case for why couldn't @SeraphimKensai suggestion of also making Spirit Ward absorb shield tether to yourself as well making it more attractive to want to use.  The blaster's not gonna care that he has buffed a teammate as much as if it also gives them a bit more of a shield.  It'd be a way to promote teaming, not just going off on your own and actually making use of powers.  

 

The suggestion was that we couldn't do that because support sets don't do good things like this which is untrue on its face.  Adjust the values as you see fit and make the power only once affecting like vengeance.  Pretty simple, I like the idea in addition to what Spirit Ward is morphing into.  

 

This is clogging things up I'm taking my leave.  

[Dahkness]

Let’s just leave farsight out of everything. It’s a useless power. Sorcery pool discussion is more important. 

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, Cheli said:

How is a defender or corruptor using these on themselves any more "overpowered" than using them on the team's scrapper or blaster? Is it going to break the game if a controller or defender can use Fortitude on themselves in order to still do less damage than everyone else while playing alone?

 

No, it wouldn't be overpowered, nor would it break anything.  It's a mantra entrenched in 2004 release day mentality, stuck in the oldest rule set on which the game was founded, when toggle mutual exclusivity was a major balance factor.  Toggle mutual exclusivity was specifically intended to encourage players to team, and click buffs were restricted to not affecting self on support archetypes so they couldn't bypass that encouragement.  Toggle mutual exclusivity was removed because Cryptic put so much mez in the game that tankers and scrappers were skipping everything except their status protection toggles and T9 god modes, those being the only powers they could keep active due to that obscene amount of mez.  But after removing toggle mutual exclusivity, Cryptic left support archetypes twisting in the wind by failing to make their click buffs affect themselves.

 

Auto-hit debuffs which perform the same general function, such as -ToHit and -Dam, are ongoing evidence that comparable self-buffing capability wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, but, curiously, the fact that those prove that the idea of support characters would be overpowered if they were safer or less reliant on others is never mentioned when people start arguing against making click buffs like Ice Shield or Fortitude self-affecting.

 

In other words, it's holding some people to one set of rules and allowing others to ignore those rules.  The word for that is discrimination, and people who advocate it don't typically look for or accept proof that they're wrong.  Like the mez situation.  2004 release day rules for support archetypes, 2021 rules for everyone else.

 

38 minutes ago, Cheli said:

Why does it seem everyone is religious dedicated to ghettoizing these ATs? I just don't get it.

 

"And when everyone's special... no-one will be." - Syndrome

[Wavicle]

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Auto-hit debuffs which perform the same general function, such as -ToHit and -Dam, are ongoing evidence that comparable self-buffing capability wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, but, curiously, the fact that those prove that the idea of support characters would be overpowered if they were safer or less reliant on others is never mentioned when people start arguing against making click buffs like Ice Shield or Fortitude self-affecting.

 

This isn't quite completely true. Buffs such as Fortitude or Ice Shields or whatever have an advantage in that they have longer durations than most debuffs, do not attract aggro, and can be cast before combat.

 

That said, I think you're probably right that there's room for adjustment.

[SeraphimKensai]

The reason I thought spirit ward would be nice to be a pbaoe is as a DPS character I don't have time to lower my DPS and buff another character, as a support character I have better support skills to use, so spirit ward is super skippable IMHO as it is. Now if I got some benefit out of it as well then I could see it having more merit at least from my perspective.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

The reason I thought spirit ward would be nice to be a pbaoe is as a DPS character I don't have time to lower my DPS and buff another character, as a support character I have better support skills to use, so spirit ward is super skippable IMHO as it is. Now if I got some benefit out of it as well then I could see it having more merit at least from my perspective.

Support classes have to stop DPS to use support powers. Why in the world would you think it makes sense to allow you to do so?

[Coyote]

17 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

The reason I thought spirit ward would be nice to be a pbaoe is as a DPS character I don't have time to lower my DPS and buff another character, as a support character I have better support skills to use, so spirit ward is super skippable IMHO as it is. Now if I got some benefit out of it as well then I could see it having more merit at least from my perspective.

 

But... it's a toggle. Why would it lower DPS to activate it on a target between fights, and then after that just let it run?

 

Allowing ally buffs to be used on oneself would be OP in many cases. Not necessarily all, but many... Empathy as a self-buffing set would give Empathy defenders the Regeneration of Regen Scrappers... plus mez protection, huge +Recovery and good +Defense. That's probably the most OP set.

 

Now, if the argument would be to allow them to be used on oneself at between 1/4 to 1/2 of their normal buff values... that may not be OP. Then you'd get a multitude of buffs, but not at the same levels that Armor sets get. Which is fair because while Armor sets would have higher defensive values, they wouldn't have the versatility of being usable on allies (at double the power, too). I could see a discussion about powers like Spirit Ward being usable on oneself at a lower value. I'm not sure it's necessary since Sorcery seems fine to me now. But as long as it's a lower value, it wouldn't unbalance the pool.

[Wavicle]

Kin being able to SB themselves? Anyone who can't see why that would be OP is either oblivious or being disingenuous.

[oedipus_tex]

This is an interesting update that opens up some cool build ideas.

 

I actually really like Spirit Ward. IMO it's a better power than Aid Other, especially for costing just 1 slot. What's really interesting about it is how it might come into play in iTrials. One person casting it isn't a game changer but three or four people casting it is a different banana. I know there are caps on Absorb but redundant casters keeps the shield up even if a few contributors die and restore it faster if it takes a big hit. It doesn't have to just be used on Tankers either, you can put it on e.g. Dark Miasma team members to make sure your AoE rezzer survives. I wonder if and how people will take advantage of it. I think it's actually a better power than some existing heals, especially on builds like Cold Domination with few other heal options and no worries about the toggle cost.

Edited April 14, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Coyote said:

Empathy as a self-buffing set would give Empathy defenders the Regeneration of Regen Scrappers... plus mez protection, huge +Recovery and good +Defense.

 

 

And still be limited to 0.65 ranged/0.55 melee damage scalar values, 400% damage cap and extremely limited access to high damage attacks.

 

If the game can survive tankers, who already have status protection, excellent Defense/Resistance, self-healing and options for improved recovery and regeneration, being bumped up to 0.95 melee/0.80 ranged scalars and increased AoE radii, instead of being told to "get a team" so they can progress at a reasonable pace, it can handle defenders being allowed to survive more comfortably while they plink away with their shitty blasts.  Shit delivered more rapidly (100% +Recharge in Adrenalin Boost) is still shit.  Shit with a pitiful +Damage buff (Fortitude) is still shit.

 

The game isn't going to collapse in on itself if defenders survive combat more comfortably or pewpew more quickly, any more than it has with the improvements made for other archetypes.

[siolfir]

It's totally off-topic, but Empathy Defenders already get "the Regeneration of Regen Scrappers", because Regen Aura is fully enhanceable to hit Instant Healing's +1000% for themselves and everyone around them. They also have a lot fewer hit points than Scrappers (or Blasters) with lower hp caps, and lower regen% caps than any melee (2000% vs 2500/3000%), so the actual hp recovery per second is significantly less.

 

And with that said, the rest of the discussion should probably find its own thread.

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Coyote said:

But... it's a toggle. Why would it lower DPS to activate it on a target between fights, and then after that just let it run?

When I stated that it lowers DPS, I was speaking from the perspective of a DPS oriented toon such as a Blaster, Scrapper thinking that having to retoggle it on a target if they break the leash would slow my DPS rotation and thus lower my DPS. That said in the world of AoE's that we find ourselves in I'd rather pop build up and aim decimate 2 group spawns and then repeat. So I don't see much desire for a DPS oriented toon to take Spirit Ward, maybe when I'm playing DPS I'm a bit selfish.

That said, I understand how some people have thought being able to self buff would be overkill, which honestly I used to main Empathy from 2004-2010 and always thought it made no sense that I could give someone else a power-boosted fortitude or a clear mind but not myself, so I've been in the "self-buff" camp for over a decade. I understand game balance, so I can understand  a reduced efficacy upon the caster, but having something that benefits them makes the power more worth that of a pick to me anyways.

From a support perspective, most support sets have some great tools as is, that the pick doesn't seem as necessary to take, because I have better options, be they dispersion bubble, frostwork, forge, etc.

My only interest in Spirit Ward as is, or planned would be potentially as a controller or mastermind to give to one of my own pets, and in a situation where it pretty much is between that and a dud, or if I have extra slots and a power and I really want a set bonus from some health IO's.

Thanks.