Please revert the Rage change.

[Kimuji]

That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. By begging for a removal of Rage's crash we're getting a Rage nerf. Double Rage was a thing since Day 1 and we might lose it now because boohoo10s crash is too much to handle.

Good going peeps, good going and thanks for nothing...

That change wouldn't even make much sense. If we're making Rage permanent for free and without a crash we might as well remove Rage entirely and include the damage and accuracy bonus directy into SS attacks or make it a passive power. No... that's completely ruinning the power's design and spirit here. I haven't  changed my mind, just don't touch Rage or SS it will only make it worse.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Kimuji

[Megajoule]

20 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

 we might as well remove Rage entirely and include the damage and accuracy bonus directy into SS attacks.

FWIW, I would be entirely down for this.

[Kimuji]

Just now, Megajoule said:

FWIW, I would be entirely down for this.

Nooooo that was not to be taken seriously. 😭

[Megajoule]

4 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Nooooo that was not to be taken seriously. 😭

Too bad. 😀

[William Valence]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. By begging for a removal of Rage's crash we're getting a Rage nerf. Double Rage was a thing since Day 1 and we might lose it now because boohoo10s crash is too much to handle.

Well then I'll ask again, how much extra damage should a SS user take as a result of the crash to compensate for the buff?

[Haijinx]

You could just make it work like Hasten.  In that you can't activate it again until the buff is over. 

 

You can't double stack hasten.

 

I believe energize works like that too.  

 

Though removing the double stack is what some are trying to avoid.  Precisely because that is where super strength becomes OP

 

Double stacked rage footstomp on a 70%  fury SS brute feels like a mini nuke

 

Every 6 seconds .. 

 

=======

 

Tankers damage is low enough even perma double rage flys by under the radar.

 

 

 

[Snickerdoodle1429]

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

I think this would be a swift kick below the belt for most people that play SS.. If built right, the CD on Rage would be under 60 sec so that you could have 3 copies up which is a constant overlapping double stack. Building around the 160% damage buff for 110 seconds by the 10 second penalty is perfectly acceptable given the extra 110 seconds of 150% badassness you get over every other powerset. Its just a trade off you have to calculate for similarly to the way you would for Unstoppable or MoG Crashes. The -20% can be offset with 2 purps.. the -1000% dmg you wait for, the end crash is erased with Ageless or Blues. It seems like a fair counter to what makes it great honestly.

[Jeuraud]

47 minutes ago, Snickerdoodle1429 said:

I think this would be a swift kick below the belt for most people that play SS..

For the people who know about and can afford to do this.

47 minutes ago, Snickerdoodle1429 said:

If built right, the CD on Rage would be under 60 sec so that you could have 3 copies up which is a constant overlapping double stack. Building around the 160% damage buff for 110 seconds by the 10 second penalty is perfectly acceptable given the extra 110 seconds of 150% badassness you get over every other powerset.

Dude are you for or against Rage, because by posting the above you have quantified just how broken Rage is.

 

As for me... like fuck is a 10sec Debuff fair for the extra 110 seconds of 40/160 "badassness" you can get from Rage (Not to mention however many seconds you get of 60/240.). The 10sec Debuff was supposed to be the cost of having a perma ToHit/Damage Buff.

 

As for a fix for what is obviously a broken power, I think there should be an End Crash. It's thematic to Rage, and a perma ToHit/Damage Buff should have some cost to it, other than forgetting to reapply it.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Jeuraud

[Kimuji]

And let's not forget that SS provides its own tools to help countering the defense crash: Hand Clap and Footstomp.

 

And like Snickerdoodle said, there are inspirations and incarnates powers. Ageless can counted the end crash, but Barrier can counter the def crash, and so do the melee hybrids. You also have Rune of Protection... There are options.
 

56 minutes ago, William Valence said:

Well then I'll ask again, how much extra damage should a SS user take as a result of the crash to compensate for the buff?

Well, how about the amount that comes with the current Rage crash?
 

55 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You could just make it work like Hasten.  In that you can't activate it again until the buff is over. 

 

You can't double stack hasten.

 

I believe energize works like that too.  

 

Though removing the double stack is what some are trying to avoid.  Precisely because that is where super strength becomes OP

 

Double stacked rage footstomp on a 70%  fury SS brute feels like a mini nuke

 

Every 6 seconds .. 

 

=======

 

Tankers damage is low enough even perma double rage flys by under the radar.

Of course SS is sooo OP. So much that everyone is rolling SS at the expense of all other melee sets. We should absolutely nerf it, it's not like there are higher damage sets like Titan Weapons around with virtually no penalty. 🙄

I mean SS isn't even the most popular set for farmers, and these guys only swear by sheer damage (they're all Spines and Rad melee). SS is not top tier either for Pylons.
Just how many of you asking for a SS nerf have opened a thread to ask a Titan Weapons nerf? None, yeah that's what I thought.
Suddenly SS had become OP just because some people don't want to deal with the crash. So yeah let's brand SS as an OP set to hide the fact that the true goal is to get Rage for free.

The fact that the thread is somewhat torn between "SS is OP" and "SS is trash" only reinforce the fact that the set is exactly where it should be.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Kimuji

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

 

As for me... like fuck is a 10sec Debuff fair for an extra 110 seconds of 40/160 "badassness" you can get from Rage (Not to mention however many seconds you get of 60/240.). The 10sec Debuff was supposed to be the cost of having a perma ToHit/Damage Buff.

If you're double stacking, you get the 10 second debuff every 60 seconds, not every 120.

[William Valence]

4 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Well, how about the amount that comes with the current Rage crash?

How much is that? How much extra damage does the current Rage crash cause?

 

That's the problem with the implementation, it's either nothing or an absurd amount depending on the set and the quality of the build. If it were a resistable -res for example, then it would at least be knowable and consistent. If you want them to take 35% more damage than you add a resistable -35% resist. It would affect both resist sets and defense sets equally, and you could know the crash does a specified penalty when it hits. There are ways to implement things better is my point.

 

It's just no one say how much extra damage a player should take from the crash to compensate, through the thread I only see people saying it's either overly crippling or does nothing because of overbuild defense and the complaint is overblown. I haven't seen people say X amount of negative effect is needed to counter the ability's positive effects.

 

If the power isn't going to change to something else a la Arcana's idea, and a crash remains, then it's not unreasonable to have that crash be specified, understandable, and consistent.

[Kimuji]

If there is no exact answer to how much damage it means it's precisely because there are options to mitigate it.
SS even provides some tools of its own to deal with it (like I said Hand Clap and Footstomp are good incoming damage mitigators).

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

This sounds like it would make for a good Equivalent Power for Rage. Call it Might, and players have a choice between consistent performance, or spiking higher with the risk of survivability hits and periods of weakness.

[Kimuji]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This sounds like it would make for a good Equivalent Power for Rage. Call it Might, and players have a choice between consistent performance, or spiking higher with the risk of survivability hits and periods of weakness.

That would be preferable indeed.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

As a long time SS user, I would be very interested to try out any ideas that you have on Justin.

[Kimuji]

Alright given the last pages inputs that's what I'd be ok with:

 

Add a new power to the Super Strength set, it would be called Might or whatever and couldn't be used in conjuction with Rage.
Might's effect would be the following:
- +20% to hit bonus for 120s
- +80% damage buff for 120s
- -25% endurance after 120s
- -9900% to all damage for 10s after 120s
- a base 4 minutes recharge time

In short players would have the choice between the regular stackable Rage with the full crash (end/dmg/def) and Might an equivalent to a non stackable version of Rage with a smaller crash.

Yes I kept some form of crash for Might, because a permanent +80% damage and 20% accuracy buff shouldn't be free. No one really complained about it before the def crash exploit was fixed, so there's no reason to remove it. And if the regular Rage is to keep the full crash there's no reason either that Might should be spared the 10s of reduced damage, that's only fair.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Kimuji

[William Valence]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

If there is no exact answer to how much damage it means it's precisely because there are options to mitigate it.
SS even provides some tools of its own to deal with it (like I said Hand Clap and Footstomp are good incoming damage mitigators).

Still having issues with this. I'm not asking if it could be compensated for, obviously it can. And while there may not be an answer to how much extra damage it takes in it's current form, that doesn't mean there isn't an answer to how much extra damage it -should- take.

 

The question is how much more damage should the player take to compensate for the rage buff. 20% more, 35% more, 50% more, double, triple? How much more damage taken compensates for the additional damage dealt, and if certain sets (see the SR example cited many times) can dismiss it casually, shouldn't the penalty be implemented better because there is a need for the debuff to compensate? Otherwise you could just remove it outright.

[Kimuji]

Well look at the post just above and one might not need to answer that question if everyone is given the choice between the regular Rage and the suggested Rage alternative. Makes everyone happy... hopefully.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

And let's not forget that SS provides its own tools to help countering the defense crash: Hand Clap and Footstomp.

 

And like Snickerdoodle said, there are inspirations and incarnates powers. Ageless can counted the end crash, but Barrier can counter the def crash, and so do the melee hybrids. You also have Rune of Protection... There are options.
 

Well, how about the amount that comes with the current Rage crash?
 

Of course SS is sooo OP. So much that everyone is rolling SS at the expense of all other melee sets. We should absolutely nerf it, it's not like there are higher damage sets like Titan Weapons around with virtually no penalty. 🙄

I mean SS isn't even the most popular set for farmers, and these guys only swear by sheer damage (they're all Spines and Rad melee). SS is not top tier either for Pylons.
Just how many of you asking for a SS nerf have opened a thread to ask a Titan Weapons nerf? None, yeah that's what I thought.
Suddenly SS had become OP just because some people don't want to deal with the crash. So yeah let's brand SS as an OP set to hide the fact that the true goal is to get Rage for free.

The fact that the thread is somewhat torn between "SS is OP" and "SS is trash" only reinforce the fact that the set is exactly where it should be.

Just relatively OP.  Not "soooo" Op.  In that no other melee set can get that kind of to hit and damage buff that you get with double stacked rage.  

 

Claws needs double focus just to approach single rage.  No other set can even approach rage.

 

If punch and jab weren't so lame, it wouldn't even be debateable.

 

There is a reason they never ported it to scrappers.

 

Titan weapons is a bad example, since everyone knows its an outlier.   

[Kimuji]

Of course TW is an outliner, and yet you don't see many threads here to get it brought back to more reasonable levels. Or does the status of outliner protects you from any sort of adjustment? Just to be clear I'm not saying that we should open such a thread, I questionned the fact that to some SS seems to need an urgent fix to its alleged OPness while there's a much bigger elephant in the room. I used Titan Weapons as a mean to show that this OPness only surfaced as an excuse to get a free Rage.

[Haijinx]

Single rage with more competitive base damage for jab and punch (with longer recharge to scale)  would be less out of pace than double rage.   

 

Its telling that similar boosts in other sets only do +30/37 damage and less to hit.

 

Titan weapons damage is too high, and should be adjusted.   

 

Its okay to be the best dps set, but it shouldn't be so far out in front that its lulz. 

 

 

[Vindicator]

12 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

It's not a bad suggestion 🙂

 

I just want the "no fun time-out" damage crash to go away.

[Kimuji]

The -damage is literally the last part of the crash that should go away if we don't want to turn Super Strength into a soulless set with no real highlights and no counterparts.

It's been there since day one, people have dealt with it when the game was much harder. CoH has never been easier than it is today, influence has never been easier to make, characters have never been so powerful and yet a 10s crash has become an insurmountable obstacle... My mind is completely blown.

Sometimes I'd almost wish we'd go back to the post ED/pre IO era for a little while just to give the community the reality check it desperately needs: The game in its current state is easy as F*! Asking for a crash less Rage in that context... I'm speechless.

Seriously anything more permissive than this would be another big step toward the trivialization of the game:
 

Quote

 

Alright given the last pages inputs that's what I'd be ok with:

 

Add a new power to the Super Strength set, it would be called Might or whatever and couldn't be used in conjunction with Rage.
Might's effect would be the following:
- +20% to hit bonus for 120s
- +80% damage buff for 120s
- -25% endurance after 120s
- -9900% to all damage for 10s after 120s
- a base 4 minutes recharge time

In short players would have the choice between the regular stackable Rage with the full crash (end/dmg/def) and Might an equivalent to a non stackable version of Rage with a smaller crash.

Yes I kept some form of crash for Might, because a permanent +80% damage and 20% accuracy buff shouldn't be free. No one really complained about it before the def crash exploit was fixed, so there's no reason to remove it. And if the regular Rage is to keep the full crash there's no reason either that Might should be spared the 10s of reduced damage, that's only fair. Especially if we consider that with Rage stacking the crash will occur twice as often as it would with Might.

 

I mean, Might would be the super duper user friendly alternative for Rage. And we'd have both so those who want the full Rage experience would get it and those who prefer a more tamed version of it would get it as well. Are there any other solutions out there that would satisfy more people at once?

Edited August 22, 2019 by Kimuji

[Vindicator]

18 hours ago, Kimuji said:

The -damage is literally the last part of the crash that should go away if we don't want to turn Super Strength into a soulless set with no real highlights and no counterparts.

/jranger

Edited August 22, 2019 by Vindicator

[William Valence]

2 minutes ago, Vindicator said:

/jranger

Inappropriate context for comment. /jranger is for things that have been suggested/discussed ad nauseam but the person failed to do a cursory search to see their discussion fails to cover any new ground. This -is- the discussion on the topic. Dismissing opinion out of hand seems inappropriate.

 

58 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I mean, Might would be the super duper user friendly alternative for Rage. And we'd have both so those who want the full Rage experience would get it and those who prefer a more tamed version of it would get it as well. Are there any other solutions out there that would satisfy more people at once?

A majority of the claims I've seen haven't said that the crash itself is inappropriate, rather the implementation through a -def debuff is poor. It either does nothing, or is over punitive. Creating a new power so that Rage can stay in a poorly implemented place doesn't satisfy the people who want rage more usable in more situations. And to clarify, making it more usable doesn't mean just removing all the penalties and keep all the benefits.