Hard TFs, and +4s, and newer players. Oh crap

[Heraclea]

I never mind PUGs and seldom mind hard settings,  because I'm usually on a tank or sturdy brute. 

 

Barracuda might be an exception, though.  Katie Hannon definitely is.  Never run Katie on anything higher than +0 for the first mission,  Can always boost it for the red cap missions that follow. 

 

 

[Clave Dark 5]

Mark me down as another PUGger, because that's all I can get, I don't have a chance to play often enough to make friends in the game (not that I haven't tried, but...).  I think the only really bad experience I had with a TF was the one where you fight Recluse at the end with the colored towers and you really need a tank to kite him around while the rest of you take out the towers first?  Generally things still go just fine for me.

 

Next time people complain about the game being too easy, tell them to PUG for one of the tougher TFs, it's a gamble and can really push you out of your comfort zone.

[Crysis]

I carry max qty Envenomed Daggers as my PUG rescue pill.  Usually a Signature Summons or two as well.  Works almost every time, especially if someone else has the Daggers.

 

We’ve all had disaster PUGs.  To me that’s just part of the experience of this casual MMO.  Even PUG’s can succeed thanks to prevalence of temp powers and no-set-team-makeup required.

[Ukase]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:57 AM, Coyotedancer said:

You know, this thread has made me glad that I only join random TF/SF teams once in a blue moon... 

 

Finding out that I'm likely to be judged a questionable player or a "clueless casual" just because I don't collect badges with any of my Homecoming characters, or bother getting those four tedious (and ultimately unnecessary, in my opinion-) accolades on each one of my crew really *isn't* making me any more interested in it, either. 

 

But hey... Probably a Good Thing, right? After all, my badge count apparently says that I have no investment in my characters and no clue how to play. 😝

In my experience, they have all been not "necessary" but in some cases quite imperative. 
Say you're playing a Blaster. With 3 of the 4 accolades, you get a 10%, a 5% and a 5% increase in HitPoints. That can take a blaster from 1445 to 1685. (I just pulled up a random build I've used on a blaster) All other things the same, I'd rather have higher hitpoints. It's well worth the brief 90 minutes of tedium to get all 4 accolades to me. 
On a tank where Hitpoints are quite important, the boosts are even more significant, as they're based on %. 

On a lot of my brutes/scrappers, they'll be sluggish with end recovery, until I get that Atlas Medallion for the 5 extra points of Endurance. All the end recovery bonuses go off of that total number of endurance points you have, so more bang for the buck. Well worth it to me. 

As far as you being likely to be judged a casual player - probably just by me. I don't know anyone else who looks at players the way I do. And while that may rub you the wrong way - you are a casual player. Not clueless. But casual. You may invest hours into a costume and a back story, but not invest 90 minutes to make your characters better? You're doing what's fun/interesting to you - which is great. Not knocking it - but if I didn't know you - I wouldn't want you on my Master TF runs over someone who has them because you have fewer hitpoints than they do. That's assuming I know neither player. The badges impress me more than the lack of them.  But that's just me. 

And, if you take my comment in context, it's a way to cut down on odds of a bad experience. Undoubtedly, this policy would "weed out" better than average players from time to time. Maybe great players. I'm willing to take that risk. 

[Heraclea]

5 minutes ago, Ukase said:

On a lot of my brutes/scrappers, they'll be sluggish with end recovery, until I get that Atlas Medallion for the 5 extra points of Endurance. All the end recovery bonuses go off of that total number of endurance points you have, so more bang for the buck. Well worth it to me.

 

The starting package for a character that catches my fancy and that I mean to get semi-serious about levelling includes a Panacea HP/End (level 7), Miracle recovery (17),  at least one Performance Shifter Chance for Endurance (17) and a Numina eregen/recovery (27) .   As soon as they have two slots in basic attacks they also get the Acc/Dam and the 'special' from their two ATO sets.  They also often, and if able to slot them, will want Steadfast Protection and maybe the PvP armor uniques.  This means that the starting package for a new character takes approximately 50-60 millions in inf or the equivalent, and 400 ~ 420 reward merits (8 hero merits) and, if squishy or needed, at least 4 points knockback protection. 

 

I usually don't spend inf on this stuff, fortunately, because I tend to stockpile all of these things and have them handy; so what it usually takes is catalysts and unslotters because the available ones tend to be higher than the minimum.  This is the basic package for any new character that gets to level 7. 

[Snarky]

26 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

 

The starting package for a character that catches my fancy and that I mean to get semi-serious about levelling includes a Panacea HP/End (level 7), Miracle recovery (17),  at least one Performance Shifter Chance for Endurance (17) and a Numina eregen/recovery (27) .   As soon as they have two slots in basic attacks they also get the Acc/Dam and the 'special' from their two ATO sets.  They also often, and if able to slot them, will want Steadfast Protection and maybe the PvP armor uniques.  This means that the starting package for a new character takes approximately 50-60 millions in inf or the equivalent, and 400 ~ 420 reward merits (8 hero merits) and, if squishy or needed, at least 4 points knockback protection. 

 

That is literally every character I take into any content.  I start slapping the I/Os in as soon as I level into the range of the enhancers.  The set bonuses will catch up as more slots are dropped.

 

But I dont check builds badges or accolades on PUGs.  I tend to PUG with anyone and do not form.  Although after this experience I look at advertisements for certain TFs and I just will not go.  Maybe that will change in the future.  I think not. 

 

Excelsior, and I love Excelsior, has become the Freedumb of Homecoming.  I played on Freedumb for almost two years.  (6 months on Liberty, almost 2 years on Freedumb, the rest of the game's life on Virtue)  But lets be honest, people on Freedumb...errr Excelsior definitely fall into a spectrum of players, broad, yet identifiable.  There is a fat portion of that curve that has people who have no idea what they are doing and if you get enough of those clinging onto a team in rough content be prepared for a shitty couple hours.  Sigh. 

 

I remember a +4 PUG ITF I joined.  There were only two incarnate 50s on the team.  Yet they insisted +4.  It was not super horrid, just sort of slow, until the end ROM fight.  When the crap his the fan the people who have no idea what they are doing and are not invested in the character beyond "PL MEs" will let you down, quit, be unable to understand much less follow directions and generally screw the mission TF into the ground.  In my opinion.

 

So I still am not leading, but I am also not joining tough content on PUGs anymore unless I recognize the leaders name.  Oklahoman.  Shout out.  No idea who you are.  You form PUGs for Master runs at incarnate trials, any trials.  You succeed.  I will join these trials.  Random guy, forming Barracuda SF.  Yeah, not so much.  Those days for me are now over.

 

[fitzsimmons]

I prefer playing hard content with toons created on that day or a day or two prior who have no set bonuses.  It’s likely they have nothing slotted and it’s my favorite part.

 

I was teamed with a dark/dark defender the other day who was vet level 152 who was only using Howling Twilight for rezzing.  I suggested that it can be used offensively.  He didn’t take kindly to that suggestion.

 

Point being that even someone with 152 vet levels can be a nubcake.

 

I posted about paperweights some time ago and it was met with less than favorable responses, but it’s still something that grinds my gears because they contribute next to nothing.

 

Regards,

Dave

[Heraclea]

33 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Excelsior, and I love Excelsior, has become the Freedumb of Homecoming.  I played on Freedumb for almost two years.  (6 months on Liberty, almost 2 years on Freedumb, the rest of the game's life on Virtue)  But lets be honest, people on Freedumb...errr Excelsior definitely fall into a spectrum of players, broad, yet identifiable. 

 

I don't really want to go here, but I do 90% of my playing on Torchbearer.  TB is the server of the early adopters; we got a bit of an early start before Excelsior and Everlasting became the highest population servers.  Not sure if this translates into a greater level of familiarity with builds and mechanics, but I just don't have much trouble with pickup groups here.

 

It may just be that I usually bring armored characters to PUGs anyways. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

 

The starting package for a character that catches my fancy and that I mean to get semi-serious about levelling includes a Panacea HP/End (level 7), Miracle recovery (17),  at least one Performance Shifter Chance for Endurance (17) and a Numina eregen/recovery (27) .   As soon as they have two slots in basic attacks they also get the Acc/Dam and the 'special' from their two ATO sets.  They also often, and if able to slot them, will want Steadfast Protection and maybe the PvP armor uniques.  This means that the starting package for a new character takes approximately 50-60 millions in inf or the equivalent, and 400 ~ 420 reward merits (8 hero merits) and, if squishy or needed, at least 4 points knockback protection. 

 

I usually don't spend inf on this stuff, fortunately, because I tend to stockpile all of these things and have them handy; so what it usually takes is catalysts and unslotters because the available ones tend to be higher than the minimum.  This is the basic package for any new character that gets to level 7. 

I'm the same way. I absolutely slot ALL of my characters with the numina, miracle and panacea in Health (or elsewhere in certain situations) and they all get the Shield Wall 5%, The glad armor 3% def, the Steadfast 3% def, the kismet 6% toHit (it says accuracy, but we know better) and usually a celerity in ranged ATs and a 4 pts kb prot. in any character that doesn't get that from armor. And, the perf shifter end mod and +end. Also the ATOs - except some tank builds forgo the Gauntleted fist, and some doms may forgo a set as well. Just depends. But by and large, each character gets them if it's worth it bonus wise. 
They get these as soon as they can slot them. Levels 7, 10 and 17 and 27. 
 

[Coyotedancer]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

As far as you being likely to be judged a casual player - probably just by me. I don't know anyone else who looks at players the way I do. And while that may rub you the wrong way - you are a casual player. Not clueless. But casual. You may invest hours into a costume and a back story, but not invest 90 minutes to make your characters better? You're doing what's fun/interesting to you - which is great. Not knocking it - but if I didn't know you - I wouldn't want you on my Master TF runs over someone who has them because you have fewer hitpoints than they do. That's assuming I know neither player. The badges impress me more than the lack of them.  But that's just me. 

And, if you take my comment in context, it's a way to cut down on odds of a bad experience. Undoubtedly, this policy would "weed out" better than average players from time to time. Maybe great players. I'm willing to take that risk. 

 

60+ full Incarnate, "finished" characters here... A fair few more than that between my old Liberty crew and Paragon... and you still think I'm a casual because I don't chase those accolades. Yeah. Okay. 

 

And you wouldn't want me on your master runs? Really? I'm just going to laugh about that, and wonder how you ever managed to tolerate having me on all of those Master of Underground runs as Anima Sola and Nemissary back in the day.  (I'm @Brightfires, Ukase. You've done dozens of Master runs with me and FlyingCodeMonkey. 😝)

[Lunchmoney]

On 5/7/2021 at 1:16 PM, Ukase said:

Most folks don't read.

Then they should learn to. Reading is essential.

 

 

[Lunchmoney]

Regarding playing in a PUG, though, it's the only choice I have. I had several friends who played, but didn't continue. So I play with whoever is online at the time. Meaning it's slow going to get some of the Red side badges ☹️

 

And discord can fuck off.

😂

Edited May 9, 2021 by Lunchmoney

[Coyotedancer]

It really is harder to put together red side groups, even when you're doing it from SG and Friends lists... That's the eternal fist-shaken-at-sky situation over there for all of us, I think.

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

It really is harder to put together red side groups, even when you're doing it from SG and Friends lists... That's the eternal fist-shaken-at-sky situation over there for all of us, I think.

I seriously have no sympathy.  I started Redside on Liberty back in the day.  I did not even know it was not a busy server.  My first MMORPG.  And i only played villains.  So, place being deserted was pretty much usual for me.  

[Coyotedancer]

48 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I seriously have no sympathy.  I started Redside on Liberty back in the day.  I did not even know it was not a busy server.  My first MMORPG.  And i only played villains.  So, place being deserted was pretty much usual for me.  

 

There was a reason my first villain was a very self-sufficient Stalker. Red side on Liberty was always a quiet place. If Liberty blue side was the City's suburbs, our red side was some place way out in the boonies.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I seriously have no sympathy.  I started Redside on Liberty back in the day.  I did not even know it was not a busy server.  My first MMORPG.  And i only played villains.  So, place being deserted was pretty much usual for me.  

 

When I started playing CoX I picked Defiant, because there were two English speaking EU servers and Defiant was supposed to be the low-pop one.  I'm wildly anti-social.  It worked out great!

 

A side effect has been that Reunion has always seemed really busy to me.

[Ukase]

10 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

60+ full Incarnate, "finished" characters here... A fair few more than that between my old Liberty crew and Paragon... and you still think I'm a casual because I don't chase those accolades. Yeah. Okay. 

 

And you wouldn't want me on your master runs? Really? I'm just going to laugh about that, and wonder how you ever managed to tolerate having me on all of those Master of Underground runs as Anima Sola and Nemissary back in the day.  (I'm @Brightfires, Ukase. You've done dozens of Master runs with me and FlyingCodeMonkey. 😝)

I know who you are. That why I said you weren't clueless. For whatever reason, you don't see the value in the accolades. To each their own. But - I restate - if I were recruiting for a master of TF and I had a choice between your character - having no idea who is behind the character - and another player with the same AT/powersets but with the accolades - I'd opt for the player with accolades. Why wouldn't I? They would have a greater chance at not being defeated simply because they have more hitpoints. That does NOT take into account skill level at all. There's no way to know that from a PUG situation. That is the context by which I make the statement. Not familiar friends, but unknown players. 

 

[Snarky]

Some interesting updates in my PUG life.  "My PUG Life...."  I need to write a book.  

 

Ad for +4 ITF.  I still need incarnate experience and threads.  O yeah.  I was in RWZ having just did a MoITF.  I join.  We start.  There was some....o heck, there was a LOT...of confusion.  THis was a "Speed Run at +4"  only no one told us and we started cleaning as a kill most, because +4.  Then the team was split, some died.  You get the picture.  The first two missions were a clown car.  We got it dialed in by the 3rd.  Also, on my hover blaster Ice/Temp/Ice, I was flying in missions 3+4.  So..... It got smooth for me at least.

 

Ad for +4 Kill Most LGTF.  Hmmm.  Last of incarnate to open Hybrid...  Hmmmm   Sure, why not.  I join.  The leader has like 57 badges.  Remember what Ukase said.  Damned.  But he does have a tricked out build.  That is one of the things I look at.  You got a list of set bonuses as long as my arm you are at least trying to do something.  I mean, my brand new 50 has no accolades and crap for badges, right?  The PUG forms and we roll in.  It was a alien slaughterfest.  Not slow.  Not super fast, I mean we killed everything but the art on the office walls.  Some of that may be blood splattered though.  My ranged nuke ice strategy was working great, even in alien tunnels.  I could get ahead of the group and aim+BU, T9, secondary Rain, and frost breath.  95% of large group gone.  Plink plink.  All gone.  look, here the team.  Move on, nothing to see here.  Had a great time.

 

But I am still looking at the 45+ content suspiciously.  I did PUG a MLTF.  It was advertised as speed, and we did.  Went well.  I think I will just avoid the Reichsman, and a few other choice TFs with odd mechanics.  Whats the one with...Dubois?  THe Duplicate dude that flies and teleports and if you are on a bad team is like a trip to the dentist.  THose TFs that I know can be bitter, like Barracuda.  Never PUG again.  

 

But how can you screw up an ITF?  Damn.

 

[Uun]

28 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Whats the one with...Dubois?  THe Duplicate dude that flies and teleports and if you are on a bad team is like a trip to the dentist. 

Admiral Sutter TF (Primal and Praetorian Colonel Duray). I was on that trip to the dentist the other day.

[fitzsimmons]

I was on that ITF on my tank.  He never said speed when advertising and I never saw it in chat but as you said it was cleared up in the second mish.

 

Seeing half the team down during the second mission made me SMH but it was good enough for government work.  It didn't affect the rest of the team's ability to mow down the crystals.

 

I sent the emp a whisper after because he said he's never running it again.  I told him it's not bad, it was just a poorly led team.  Not sure if I changed his mind on that.  He declined my offer to lead another one for him.

 

Regards,

Dave

 

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, fitzsimmons said:

I was on that ITF on my tank.  He never said speed when advertising and I never saw it in chat but as you said it was cleared up in the second mish.

 

Seeing half the team down during the second mission made me SMH but it was good enough for government work.  It didn't affect the rest of the team's ability to mow down the crystals.

 

I sent the emp a whisper after because he said he's never running it again.  I told him it's not bad, it was just a poorly led team.  Not sure if I changed his mind on that.  He declined my offer to lead another one for him.

 

Regards,

Dave

 

Yeah, I saw the EMPs team post about never running an ITF again.  I too whispered the ITF is "usually" the best non AE rewards/time TF in the game.   Sigh.  It makes me think I should lead more teams.  I am not going to.  But it does make me think that.

[ZemX]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:48 PM, DrInfernus said:

So all I’m taking away from this thread is how bad I must be to play with 😂😂

 

I PUG all the time too.  It's why I play this game.   It has such variety!

 

But I'm a filthy casual.  I don't much care if every team I am on operates like a well-oiled machine.  Figuring out how to make it operate at all is the fun part for me.  But everyone should do what makes them happy.  I don't knock min/maxers and spreadsheet superheroes.  If that's their thing, good for them.

 

That said, I think there are definitely exceptions to my "PUGs are fine!" attitude and Barracuda is probably one of them.  You don't want to join a BSF and see all the warning signs (+4 mission setting, more than half the team is sidekicked,  there's no tank... or the tank is sidekicked too and has no set bonuses to boot, etc.)  It's more than likely not gonna go well.

 

Overall, even though I PUG exclusively, I've rarely failed a TF/SF and when it's happened it's usually because of the team composition things I just mentioned, not because you can't get people to listen to some simple instructions.   If I had to pick only one thing to watch out for it's not badges, accolades, ATs, or even powersets and set bonuses... it is levels of teammates relative to the difficulty setting.  Sidekicks can be facing up to +6 bosses/EBs/AVs on a +4/x8 team, meaning for those enemies, they might as well be spectators unless they are strictly providing buffs/heals.  That other stuff is important too, but the relative levels makes the biggest difference in my opinion.  Similarly, a team leader who notices these things and adjusts difficulty to compensate is a good team leader.  I'm always a little wary of people who are advertising their teams as +4/x8 for that reason.  It means they more than likely aren't flexible and would rather wipe and have people drop than lower the difficulty.

[Coyotedancer]

10 hours ago, Ukase said:

I know who you are. That why I said you weren't clueless. For whatever reason, you don't see the value in the accolades. To each their own. But - I restate - if I were recruiting for a master of TF and I had a choice between your character - having no idea who is behind the character - and another player with the same AT/powersets but with the accolades - I'd opt for the player with accolades. Why wouldn't I? They would have a greater chance at not being defeated simply because they have more hitpoints. That does NOT take into account skill level at all. There's no way to know that from a PUG situation. That is the context by which I make the statement. Not familiar friends, but unknown players. 

 

  

And what I'm trying to show you here is that, while it's fine to *have* standards, as criteria go the one you've chosen isn't great. It may not be a reasonable indication of what you're looking for. It may just be badge-hound bias.

 

If you'd used badging as your standard back-in-the-day, you'd never have run with Nemissary or Sola. ('Pretty sure Task Force Commander was the only accolade Nem had at the time, and that was just by virtue of him being my blue-side main. Sola has never had any of them.)

[Coyotedancer]

24 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Overall, even though I PUG exclusively, I've rarely failed a TF/SF and when it's happened it's usually because of the team composition things I just mentioned, not because you can't get people to listen to some simple instructions.   If I had to pick only one thing to watch out for it's not badges, accolades, ATs, or even powersets and set bonuses... it is levels of teammates relative to the difficulty setting.  Sidekicks can be facing up to +6 bosses/EBs/AVs on a +4/x8 team, meaning for those enemies, they might as well be spectators unless they are strictly providing buffs/heals.  That other stuff is important too, but the relative levels makes the biggest difference in my opinion.  Similarly, a team leader who notices these things and adjusts difficulty to compensate is a good team leader.  I'm always a little wary of people who are advertising their teams as +4/x8 for that reason.  It means they more than likely aren't flexible and would rather wipe and have people drop than lower the difficulty.

 

Agreed.

 

I actually have been on a failed rando-ITF. It was exactly as you described...

 

Made mostly of 35/40-somethings with a pair of 50+ characters (My Dark/Bio/Dark Sentinel, Tavaris, was one of those two-). The Brute-playing-Tank was *not* the other 50, but still insisted they just HAD to have the TF set to +4 or it "wouldn't be worth running". It was supposed to be a smash-run, but a few of the folks apparently only knew how to speed and thought that was "standard practice" for all ITFs...

 

No surprise, it was a disaster.

The Brute left in a huff after the leader told her he was turning down the difficulty.

 

I do suspect that if we'd had a mostly-50 group, we'd have been fine in spite of fast/slow-run issues, but on +4 with the lowbie-heavy composition we had? Not so much. Ending up with a scattered party doomed enough of that group to make it no fun at all.  

[EmperorSteele]

Fwiw, as someone who has a badging main... I don't bother with badging on most of my other characters. What I lack in accolades I tend to make up for with set bonuses. Also, a lack of accolades or set bonuses isn't always indicative of a bad player; they might just have 100 characters and haven't gotten around to setting up that specific character.

 

Though I would be lying if I pretended I was never concerned with running a TF with non-optimized/under-leveled characters. Usually it ends up okay and I (and any other built-up characters) can carry the lowbies, but there has been the occasional drop-fest, as well.

 

I try not to get too upset by it.

 

Key word, "try". DAMMIT [ name redacted], DO YOU EVEN ENHANCE, BRO?! *cough*, excuse me. Still a little sore about that one.