Hard TFs, and +4s, and newer players. Oh crap

[Snarky]

So I joined a Barracuda PUG.  Sigh.  Why do I do this to myself.  Probably the last one.  Ever,

 

It was at +4, which was slow going.  We load into the last mission, and it hit me.  The AVs.  Reichsman.  +4.  Most of this team was really lost on this TF.  We grind through it to Reichsman.  Guess what?  

 

5h1Z670rM %$&!!!   grrrrrr.  Tried to get everyone to lower diff and log for 2 min.  Did not work.  Maybe someone didnt log.  Who knows.  Lot of drift in there.  i was leading some AVs solo on my Blaster and trying to survive ambushes....moderate success.  

 

Sigh.  Might be my last high level PUG.  I am getting to old for this crap.

[MTeague]

Wellll....if someone starts barking out things we NEED to do, and never says why, that might get my back up. Especially if we haven't even TRIED a run or two as we were yet. And especially if his solution means we'd need to reset a really long map and it looks like the final fight is RIGHT THERE.

 

But if we've wiped a few times, and it wasn't even close, and someone say "hey guys. There's some interesting mechanics on this one.  Maybe not everyone's familar with it. Plus, with some people sidekicked and looking at +5 AV's, this is going to get very rough.  If we want to keep going, we can do that, but I think we need to make sure everyone knows where to find their temp powers and how and when to use them.  Or, we could drop difficulty some, though we'd need to log for a couple minutes to be able to do that."   Then, I'm a lot more willing to listen.

 

Yea, I know.  Grumpy Man is Grumpy.  I've totally had nights after a bad day at work when I'm like NOPE, I want to just go nuts in a Mayhem and level an entire city block while doing the BWAHHAHAHHAHAH laugh.  Some nights you ain't gonna want to be diplomatic about anything, even if it might be more effective.  That's fair.  But approach reallllly can matter. 

 

EDIT:  I wasn't there, don't know what you tried or didn't.  But I've often gotten the impression you don't suffer fools gladly, and might not be inclined to walk people through steps like that. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by MTeague

[Snarky]

We fought him for 5-10 minutes and his health bar actually moved down once or twice before returning to full.  

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

We fought him for 5-10 minutes and his health bar actually moved down once or twice before returning to full.  

Gotcha.  Thinking of Reese in original Terminator  "Can you stop it?"  "I don't know.... with these weapons.... I don't know."

[Ghost]

You must have the worst luck in the world - or maybe its karma 🙂

 

I regularly run PUG +2 ITFs so the non 50's will join - and they usually do.

The biggest problem I ever run into is getting them to Cimerora.

 

Not everyone has a buddy who will hold their hand through the higher level content.

I never mind slow rolling through anything to help someone, or a group of someone's who may be experiencing a certain TF/Arc/Mish for the very first time.     

 

 

Now dont get me wrong.  There are times I am not in the mood - and in those instances, I stay away from forming anything.

 

[Snarky]

So, after my hard learned lesson of a few minutes ago I developed a simple new policy.  Someone posts LRSF, or casual Miss Liberty.  I send a tell "are you running at +0"  No response.  three different people.  So, thats going well.  I think i am taking a few weeks off PUGs lol.

[Coyotedancer]

But Snarky, don't you know that they just HAVE to do those things at +4?

I mean... anything less means they're all total scrubs who need to Grow Up and GIT GUD! 

 

Or something like that....

I don't know....

 

It just seems like a certain mindset that's starting to be more common than it really ought to be. 😝

[BjorJlen]

   I am very sorry @Snarky; I feel your pain. So here's some hugs for you...

 

 

 

   Of course you'll do this...

 

 

   Sooo, dance instead @Snarky...

 

 

Peace (and smiles)...

[Shred Monkey]

I PUG a lot.... it's rare to see level 50 TFs run at +4 other than ITF, so I think you just got lucky to find a +4 Barracuda... and then got unlucky that it filled with non-maxed players.

[Snarky]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

You must have the worst luck in the world - or maybe its karma 🙂

 

I regularly run PUG +2 ITFs so the non 50's will join - and they usually do.

The biggest problem I ever run into is getting them to Cimerora.

 

Not everyone has a buddy who will hold their hand through the higher level content.

I never mind slow rolling through anything to help someone, or a group of someone's who may be experiencing a certain TF/Arc/Mish for the very first time.     

 

 

Now dont get me wrong.  There are times I am not in the mood - and in those instances, I stay away from forming anything.

 

PUG for ITF kill alls is standard these days.  And leads to the train wreck in the Barracuda or what another current poster explains happened to his team facing Freedom Phalanx.  The only difficulty (after surviving....) in the ITf at any +1 +4 w/e has always been the last Rom fight.  Back on live pre-incarnate there were strategies and team composition discussions and...failures.  Now the team has so much damage (usually) that even at +4 Rom goes down 4 times faster than a crack ho.  The rest of the ITF is just incarnate experience, Inf, and drop farm.

 

But the LRSF, MLTF, Barracuda and a few of the other late game 45+ Strike Forces/Task Forces require more than showing up with a can do attitude like a new recruit at basic training.  You need to have some idea what is about to happen and how the team is going to deal with it or your entire boot camp experience is going to involve mud in the face and a sergeant screaming in your ear while standing on your back.

[Ukase]

I have felt this pain. I typically find myself one of the last couple that are alive..while all these..these...PUGs are dead...and staying dead, just laying there, as if this defeat has impacted the player in real life. To be fair, I've also seen some use an awaken and quickly plant again. This is why I spend a ton of effort into making my characters independent, not needing buffs or debuffs. None of my guys are going to win dps character of the year, except a fire blaster with a specific build designed with specific teammates in mind. But they are sturdy. 

This is what I would tell you: 
A PUG is the exact same thing as an SG. The difference is usually discord, and perhaps, some familiarity with the rest of the team and the way the parts of the whole function individually - like knowing their powersets and perhaps a certain power you'd expect them to have but they don't, or vice-versa. 

The problem with discussing options in chat are a few. 
Most folks don't read. At worst, they never read it. At best, they see and respond quickly..but there are levels of in-game literacy in between. They haven't seen it yet to read it. They might be typing their own comment in. Several may be typing something in. The end result is usually a jumbled conversation that solved nothing. 

Eventually, you reach a point where you find a metric that has nothing to do with the actual ability of the player to gage this group's chance of success. Me? I look at badge counts if I don't recognize the global. On a master tf run, I look at their badges. If they have the 4 passive accolades, then I know that at a minimum, they've suffered through some tedium to benefit their characters. They are invested in them. If they don't have these, then while they may be fantastic players, they're not invested. They're casual. It's not important to them. This is my perception, mind you. Only they can verify it with words. But talk is cheap.

If you're level 50 and have less than 200 badges and you have the 4 passive accolades...you didn't get them by accident. 
If you're level 30 and have one or two of the passive accolades, you're my kind of player. 
If you're level 50 and have over 500, you're my kind of player. 
If you're level 50, have one or two accolades and only 57 badges...you've pl'd that character. You're working towards making the investment in the character to be my kind of player. My only concern is if you have enough time/experience on that character to be better than simply competent. (Depends on the task, of course) 

 

I also look at their character bio, if they have one. If they don't have one - no penalty. If they do have one, and I deem it to be trite, stupid, or rife with bad spelling and grammar, they get a penalty in my mind. If they have one and it's either amusing, or interesting, a bonus point. Then I'll look at the costume. If they have a tail...just kidding. Anyone who knows me knows my heroes and villains are the worst dressed in the city. The times I've spent in the tailor seldom amount to anything productive, so I use the same 4-5 costumes. None of which would ever place in a contest with more than 4 contestants. 

 

Is my system fool proof? Absolutely not. But, it works for me. 

 

[Ura Hero]

39 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The problem with discussing options in chat are a few. 
Most folks don't read. At worst, they never read it. At best, they see and respond quickly..but there are levels of in-game literacy in between. They haven't seen it yet to read it. They might be typing their own comment in. Several may be typing something in. The end result is usually a jumbled conversation that solved nothing. 

 

 

This right here.  The number of times I have posted in team or league chat; "Don't do this.  Here is the plan."  Inevitably there is at least one person who does a Leroy Jenkins.  It's why I hate running PUGs for content that is difficult anymore.  Folks just won' read and listen.   At least in the SG we are usually on Discord and it's hard not to hear the directions.

 

The running joke at my work was when the tech support folks would tell the customer to turn to a page in the manual you could hear the shrink wrap being taken off of it.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Ura Hero

[Apparition]

I hear you.  A friend of mine and I wanted to do a speedy Lord Recluse Strike Force once just after midnight ET.  None of our other friends were on, so we decided to fill the team with PUGs.  This was on Excelsior, the most populated shard, so it shouldn't be too bad even if it is red side, right? :P  After about a half hour of recruiting, I only managed to get four other people.  So we decided to go ahead and do the SF with our team of six.  My friend was on a Dark Miasma Corruptor, and I was on a Radiation Emissions Corruptor.

 

Now, I always run level 50 TFs/SFs at a minimum of +2 (even speed runs), because I don't like seeing blue nor white conned mobs at any level.  IMO, they're a waste of time.  So this speedy LRSF was set at +2.

 

At the end of the second mission, one of the PUGs grabbed the Orestes Rifle before my friend or I could.  I thought, "Okie, this is a speed run, and he went to grab the Orestes Rifle, so I'm sure he knows what to do with it."  Bwahahahaha.

 

We got to Miss Liberty, and we're fighting her, and fighting her, and her health bar never budged.  People on the team have started to drop.  My friend used Howling Twilight to rez two people.  "So and so, did you use the rifle on Miss Liberty?"  "What's that?"  Meanwhile two more people have dropped, including my friend.  I used Mutation to rez her.  By the time I finished explaining, I think every member on the team had died at least twice, and I used Burnout to bring Mutation up immediately after using it.

 

I learned two valuable lessons from that: One, never ever have a mostly PUG team for the LRSF.  Secondly, if there's a PUG on the team, be sure to have someone grab the Orestes Rifle before the PUG.

[Mr. Vee]

Ms. L drops without the rifle fine given enough debuffs and damage. I've been on many a team where the person who went for the glowie also had the rifle and she was dead before they got over there with it. Maybe the lesson should be turn it down to +0 on that particular mission when running small/pug?

[Ukase]

The simple truth is that pugs are hit or miss. Ultimately, it comes down to how quickly you can explain things before the situation that needs explanation arises - AND - get confirmation that the explanation has been understood. 

I can chat explanations until I'm blue in the face (or red with anger!) but I have no control over getting the confirmation. Even in my own sg, there are newer (and older) players that are clearly not paying attention. Tabbed out moving a farmer. Away from the keyboard to tend to ...any number of things. Aging husband, messy toddler, a pet needing to go outside, a crying baby, an empty glass/bottle. These are the casual player that don't feel any responsibility towards any other players. They are unthinking at best. Selfish at worst. Totally oblivious to the frustration they cause because they're playing a game, and relaxing. They're clearly not immersed into role-play, they're plainly put, distracted. Or perhaps they're giving it their best effort,  but the system they play on is the same one from when the game went live and they're still playing on Windows 95. (is that even possible? I've no idea)

The best you can do is make a rating system so you know when not to include players on difficult missions/trials/tfs. Then you have to stick to it, which can be difficult. Sometimes your own sg will invite these idiots you've put on global ignore into the sg! And now you have to be careful about which events you want to attend, lest your sg become more like a pug experience. An SG really is just a PUG, though, but you have discord to mitigate most of the incompetence/ignorance. At least the one I'm in is a pug, because they'll take anyone. We've gotten some great people who are poor players, bad people who are great players and all combos in between. The same thing that can make you laugh can make you cry. 

[Coyotedancer]

You know, this thread has made me glad that I only join random TF/SF teams once in a blue moon... 

 

Finding out that I'm likely to be judged a questionable player or a "clueless casual" just because I don't collect badges with any of my Homecoming characters, or bother getting those four tedious (and ultimately unnecessary, in my opinion-) accolades on each one of my crew really *isn't* making me any more interested in it, either. 

 

But hey... Probably a Good Thing, right? After all, my badge count apparently says that I have no investment in my characters and no clue how to play. 😝

[Uun]

I enjoy doing +4 TFs with a good team. The one where stuff hits the fan quickly if the team isn't good is the AV battle in Market Crash. While I've successfully completed this at +4, I've also been on several teams that disbanded after too many wipes. I really need to learn to drop before the TF starts if the team composition doesn't cut it.

[JasperStone]

I have played for awhile and never did this TF until Homecoming. ..... boy did I get my butt handed to me.

I join a lot of PUGS and always follow the leaders decision.

Hopefully you will return to doing them as I enjoy playing with veteran players and newbies alike. 

[DrInfernus]

I have no in-game friends or SG, so PUGs is all I get 😂

 

So all I’m taking away from this thread is how bad I must be to play with 😂😂

 

Ah well, at least it’s Friday 😁

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

Ah well, at least it’s Friday 😁

 

Don't get too comfortable with that, the most likely day to be fired is Friday even if it's your day off, they even made a movie about it.

[BjorJlen]

 

   Soooo....

 

 

   Sorry, I couldn't resist... It's Friday... 😋

 

Peace...

[DrInfernus]

48 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Don't get too comfortable with that, the most likely day to be fired is Friday even if it's your day off, they even made a movie about it.

Thanks 🤣🤣🤣😂

[Spaghetti Betty]

I feel the same way. PUGs these days can get frustrating. It's probably also my mentality. I don't offer much in the way of leadership unless I have the shiny star. If I don't, I'm a background character. That's why nowadays if I PUG then I lead. And I tank. And I drink. This is not healthy.

 

 

I find I have the most fun tanking for 3-4 man teams. Much more intimate and requires some amount of synergy. That's not a very common way to play the game, unfortunately.

[srmalloy]

On 5/7/2021 at 1:52 PM, Mezmera said:

Don't get too comfortable with that, the most likely day to be fired is Friday even if it's your day off, they even made a movie about it.

A random piece of cultural trivia -- firing someone on a Friday right when they show up to work is considered courteous in Korea; doing it out of the blue and sending them home spares them having to be at work with their failure hanging over them, and doing it on Friday gives them the weekend to put themselves back together. So the way NCsoft slagged Paragon Studios was respecting their 'face'... by their standards... no matter how crude and abrupt it was by Western standards.

[tidge]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:17 PM, Uun said:

I enjoy doing +4 TFs with a good team. The one where stuff hits the fan quickly if the team isn't good is the AV battle in Market Crash. While I've successfully completed this at +4, I've also been on several teams that disbanded after too many wipes. I really need to learn to drop before the TF starts if the team composition doesn't cut it.

 

I enjoy running +4 on PUGs for content down to ~lvl 25, but allow me to write why before dismissing my opinion:

• I've got nothing BETTER to do in the game. I've played most of the content and I want to see how I and other players handle adversity.
• The enemies require a LOT more team effort. There is far less of people dashing off by themselves. Those that do can either handle it, or not.

I'm sensitive to players who struggle with "To Hit" against +4 enemies... but with "soft caps" on defense... this is basically what many players subject the enemies to! The AoE holds not working so well? Maybe don't slot 5 %damage procs? That rez power might actually come in handy!

 

I'm not in favor of just turning missions into boring slogfests (ehem, no +4 Synapse TF thank you) or watching other players suffer... but seeing players come together as a team is AWESOME. I recently started a rather extreme Pinny Yin TF in which most of the members of the PUG were not full kits of exemplared level 50s, but I was running a character that could seriously debuff enemies and after a few scares (and an honest request to watch how we did at +4) we ended up completing the TF in about an hour (quite long for a Penny Yin IMO) but the XP rewards for the team were extremely generous and we had a lot of fun banter. YMMV.