Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Why are we "jumping in" exactly?

 

Don't we have controls, nukes, extra-buffs (like resistance/regen) to soften the blow?  Or tactics like thinning out, sniping/pulling and LoS to shore up the fact that "this AT isn't Tanker/Brute"?

 

They jump in because they can and they know it’s not THAT big of a gamble.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said:

They jump in because they can and they know it’s not THAT big of a gamble.

Nah, this game is not hard. Doing silly things like jumping into a +4x8 mob on a squishy with no mez protection is fun because it's one of the only times in PvE where you might actually be at risk of dying.

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

No im saying its flat wrong this time, last time and every time because the game would need to be re written from top to bottom to facilitate it.  If you want context do your homework and go read the last 4 beelion posts where its been argued against.

 

They could read the last beelion posts but they wouldn’t get anymore information than you just provided in this quote.  Which is none

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Nah, this game is not hard. Doing silly things like jumping into a +4x8 mob on a squishy with no mez protection is fun because it's one of the only times in PvE where you might actually be at risk of dying.

 

 

The best is seeing the Tanker hesitate to jump into a mob, saying "Screw it," on my Blaster or Corruptor, and jump in. :P

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

That hard-capping defense to 40% is a Bad Idea™ and would have a "cascading failure" of other systems and encounters needing to be adjusted, for little to no benefit because people would just go about their merry way using, as you so eloquently put it, "non-defense mitigation such as heals, regen, resistance, -rech, sleeps, disorient, confuse, holds and knockback."

 

I am confused.  Does it cause cascading failure or would people go on their merry way?   The point is to open avenues of value for more things than just more damage.  

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I mean he has a point, it would do wonders for increasing the game difficulty.  I am not sure how fair it would be to defense sets and what not but that's kind of beside the point.

 

It’s not beside the point.  If you want to swap the word balance with fair then it’s currently not fair to the resistance scrappers, which the numbers clearly show.  A 40% def cap is not fair in its application but it is fair in its results.  Which is also shown by the numbers.   

[chi1701]

2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

It’s not beside the point.  If you want to swap the word balance with fair then it’s currently not fair to the resistance scrappers, which the numbers clearly show.  A 40% def cap is not fair in its application but it is fair in its results.  Which is also shown by the numbers.   

 

How would you re-balance the veat widow who has insane amount of defence? up to 100%+ defence and very little to no resistance

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     And then some!

 

     Just go ahead and make an SR scrapper  take double damage from all attacks.  That's essentially what this suggestion is requesting --> Do you know how many set bonuses are involved soft capping an SR scrapper or better yet Tanker?  Zero, let me repeat that, zero.  I can soft cap an SR scrapper with SO's, no IOs needed.  And that's without touching Elude.  Would it make the game harder ... lol no, not really.  And yeah it would definitely make any outside ally defense buffs utterly worthless outside of maybe allowing a static team SR skip multiple powers for ... extra pool picks?  The idea of hard capping at a way, way, way lower value just screams problematic.

     

 

 

Your bragging only makes the case stronger.  Can an elec scrapper hard cap s/l resistance without IOs?  How about f/c/n?   Your scrapper covered it all, the other just face planted without a chance.  That’s not balanced.  

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

It’s not beside the point.  If you want to swap the word balance with fair then it’s currently not fair to the resistance scrappers, which the numbers clearly show.  A 40% def cap is not fair in its application but it is fair in its results.  Which is also shown by the numbers.   

Luckily, these resistance-based Scrappers have their choice of at least... counts... seven different pool powers which buff defense to everything. Meanwhile, the defense-based Scrappers can choose between... well, no, they can't really choose because there's only one pool power which grants resistance to everything, and it can only be used 1/3 of the time. There's Tough as well, but it only gives S/L resist. And this isn't even getting into the world of IOs where defense bonuses are usually more easy to acquire in meaningful numbers than their resistance counterparts, though the set bonus tweaks in Issue 24 went a long way to address this.

 

TL;DR: It is significantly easier for a resistance-based character to add defense through IOs and pool powers than it is for a defense-based character to add resistance.

Edited May 21, 2021 by macskull

[Brutal Justice]

46 minutes ago, macskull said:

You're misunderstanding what "multiple sources" means. In this context "multiple sources" is "multiple critters attacking at the same time." In that situation, while the defense-based build has higher survivability on paper, the more sources of incoming damage the more likely the defense-based character is to take enough damage to rapidly kill it.

 

The 1000 dps was calculated from this type of multiple sources.  Whether it’s death by 100 cuts or 1 cut, the average is still the average when the dps remains constant.  You have outliers but no field of study uses those outliers as the result, they use the average of their results which includes the outliers.   

[Brutal Justice]

46 minutes ago, macskull said:

You are assuming the Scrapper does nothing and simply stands there which is in no way representative of anything that will actually happen during gameplay.

 

I’ve actually stated this multiple times.  You jumping in is not much of a gamble if you’re not standing there doing nothing.  You want people to believe you’re taking some great gamble, but you’re not.  You’re probably somewhat stealthed so you get your nuke off without retaliation, followed by more dps that renders most of the mob obsolete.  

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

The 1000 dps was calculated from this type of multiple sources.  Whether it’s death by 100 cuts or 1 cut, the average is still the average when the dps remains constant.  You have outliers but no field of study uses those outliers as the result, they use the average of their results which includes the outliers.   

Except... it does matter. Those calculations assume the character in question is standing still and doing nothing to mitigate the incoming damage aside from relying on their resistance/defense - in other words, conditions which in no way represent what you would encounter during actual gameplay. Once I jump into a group of enemies, every enemy I defeat or otherwise render incapable of attacking me effectively increases that survivability time. Maybe I know a given group will kill my Elec Armor Scrapper in 15 seconds, so I focus on taking out the biggest threats first and the group never comes close to causing problems (and that's also ignoring the extra mitigation in the form of heal/regen Elec Armor offers). Maybe the SR Scrapper will die on average in 25 seconds, but there's no way for me to know whether I'm going to just die in three hits the second I jump in or if I'll be fine (and the SR Scrapper also lacks any in-set regen/heals to recover from the damage that does get through).

 

But, let's humor you for a moment. Here are some survivability times from a Tanker standing in a group of +4x8 Council. Each armor set in question is using only SOs and running Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Tough, and Weave.

 

 

You'd expect the defense-based sets to be all the way at the top but as it turns out it's the hybrid def/res sets which win, even the ones which are nowhere near softcap. Super Reflexes, which is softcapped in this scenario, is solidly in the middle of the pack. Obviously the resistance-based/click-based sets fare worst since in this scenario the healing/regen/absorb of those sets is being completely ignored.

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I’ve actually stated this multiple times.  You jumping in is not much of a gamble if you’re not standing there doing nothing.  You want people to believe you’re taking some great gamble, but you’re not.  You’re probably somewhat stealthed so you get your nuke off without retaliation, followed by more dps that renders most of the mob obsolete.  

This would imply mobs are unable to target and fire at you during the ~3-second activation time for said nuke, which is not the case (even if I were stealthed, starting to animate an enemy-affecting power drops it), and I have a nuke up every single spawn, which is also definitely not the case.

 

You're also putting words in my mouth. I never said I was "taking some great gamble." I know I probably will be fine but that does not entirely eliminate the randomness of defense.

Edited May 21, 2021 by macskull

[Ignatz the Insane]

How do Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks differ without IOs?

 

How much do IOs effect the performance of Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers relative to each other?

Edited May 21, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Your bragging only makes the case stronger.  Can an elec scrapper hard cap s/l resistance without IOs?  How about f/c/n?   Your scrapper covered it all, the other just face planted without a chance.  That’s not balanced.  

First it's not bragging (anyone can do it), it's been fact for a long time.  Second the set unlike many resistance sets has no self heal or +health power, no way outside passive regeneration to recover the health lost to the hits they will take.  No Energize, no Dull Pain.  So to say it isn't balanced has a long way to go to make its case yet.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[America's Angel]

11 hours ago, arcane said:

Also wanted to point out this is likely the opposite of the truth since PvE builds actually, ya know, spend power choices and slots on AoE's. PvP builds are the supreme single target builds.

 

I only posted the videos to show that Brutes have the potential to do good damage. If I was going to do the pylons again with an actual PvE Claws build I'd probably want to switch from vigor to musculature, switch from degenerative 75% -hp to whichever one of the reactive ones is best, lose some of the PvP mitigation tools in favor of assault and adrenal booster, and possibly switch out Body Mastery for Soul Mastery and pick up Gloom. (Unless the switch to musculature necessitated keeping body mastery for the extra recovery and performance shifter procs.)

 

Whatever I end up changing, the result would be the same: a faster time than the ~2:10-2:20 min time my PvP Claws Brute  got.

 

Speaking of, I just took my ss/inv PvP build into RWZ and dropped a Pylon in just under 1:50:

 

 

As above, if I was going to make a PvE build for this, I'd do a lot differently.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

I only posted the videos to show that Brutes have the potential to do good damage. If I was going to do the pylons again with an actual PvE Claws build I'd probably want to switch from vigor to musculature, switch from degenerative 75% -hp to whichever one of the reactive ones is best, lose some of the PvP mitigation tools in favor of assault and adrenal booster, and possibly switch out Body Mastery for Soul Mastery and pick up Gloom. (Unless the switch to musculature necessitated keeping body mastery for the extra recovery and performance shifter procs.)

 

Whatever I end up changing, the result would be the same: a faster time than the ~2:10-2:20 min time my PvP Claws Brute  got.

 

Speaking of, I just took my ss/inv PvP build into RWZ and dropped a Pylon in just under 1:50:

 

 

As above, if I was going to make a PvE build for this, I'd do a lot differently.

 

The important question is whether you were using -res procs on both characters since those skew results. It probably slipped under the radar and you didn't answer the last time it was asked, but knowing this would make a difference. I doubt a PvP character is using -res procs, but I don't know about your slotting choices.

 

Without -res those are very good times that crumple the argument Brutes are just slightly ahead since without -res procs into the mix Tankers tend to hover around the 4 minutes on a damage optimized build. Bio Armor probably gets better times as much for the +25% buff as for the sneaky -res aura that pylon tests do so adore.

[America's Angel]

34 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

The important question is whether you were using -res procs on both characters since those skew results. It probably slipped under the radar and you didn't answer the last time it was asked, but knowing this would make a difference. I doubt a PvP character is using -res procs, but I don't know about your slotting choices.

 

Without -res those are very good times that crumple the argument Brutes are just slightly ahead since without -res procs into the mix Tankers tend to hover around the 4 minutes on a damage optimized build. Bio Armor probably gets better times as much for the +25% buff as for the sneaky -res aura that pylon tests do so adore.

 

-res procs don't really skew results because you can use the %chance to fire to accurately estimate the uptime based on how many seconds your attack chain takes. This means you can ballpark how much extra DPS they are giving you, and that this number will be roughly the same each time you pylon test.

 

Also worth remembering that Scrappers, Stalkers, Tanks, and Brutes all have equal access to them (either through their primaries/secondaries, or via Crosspunch and Laser Beam eyes). So when assessing the inter-balance of the four main melee ATs on IOs, -res procs should always be in consideration. (Even in those cases where you decide not to use them, as this will only ever be because something else is preferable.)

 

But yes, both my Claws/Regen Brute and SS/Inv Brute used -res procs. Although honestly I have no idea if ditching LBE + Achilles in favor of the increased DPS of Gloom is a better approach for PvE. I don't tend to min/max stuff in PvE - I just pick the powers with the cool looking animations.

Edited May 21, 2021 by America's Angel

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

 

The best is seeing the Tanker hesitate to jump into a mob, saying "Screw it," on my Blaster or Corruptor, and jump in. :P

Arrrrr that be no tanker matey

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

They could read the last beelion posts but they wouldn’t get anymore information than you just provided in this quote.  Which is none

They aren't getting anything from it anyway because most people worth their salt once seeing your name tune you out instantly now - because its been explained to you many many times why your idea won't work and why your math on it as irrelevant 

 

Sorry but time to go back to the drawing board.

[nihilii]

I completely disagree with Brutal Justice's pet crusade, but can't help but admire his ability to insert it into absolutely every single thread.

 

It's like our very own Godwin's Law.

 

Whether Blaster vs Sentinel, Tanker vs Brute, or power color customisation... If a thread lasts long enough, Brutal Justice will show up and advocate for defense to be nerfed to 40%.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

-res procs don't really skew results because you can use the %chance to fire to accurately estimate the uptime based on how many seconds your attack chain takes. This means you can ballpark how much extra DPS they are giving you, and that this number will be roughly the same each time you pylon test.

 

Also worth remembering that Scrappers, Stalkers, Tanks, and Brutes all have equal access to them (either through their primaries/secondaries, or via Crosspunch and Laser Beam eyes). So when assessing the inter-balance of the four main melee ATs on IOs, -res procs should always be in consideration. (Even in those cases where you decide not to use them, as this will only ever be because something else is preferable.)

 

But yes, both my Claws/Regen Brute and SS/Inv Brute used -res procs. Although honestly I have no idea if ditching LBE + Achilles in favor of the increased DPS of Gloom is a better approach for PvE. I don't tend to min/max stuff in PvE - I just pick the powers with the cool looking animations.

 

-res skew results because they inflate them. Suddenly 25% or more damage increase from using two of them. 'Just look at the damage my character does!'

 

Then we leave a pylon, go do a normal map, time it while using -res, then time it not using a -res. Same times. Where is the 25% damage increase? We solo fight a regular +4 (+3 with Alpha) AV and the 25% damage increase from having the -res procs slotted turns into as low as 5%.

 

And that skews the filter by which builds are looked at. It is no longer 'my damage is X' but rather 'my damage is X +25%', and then arguments are built around how such and such AT combo can do X (+25%) because it can slot more -res procs into them as if that X(+25%) happened outside of the narrow pylon test confines.

 

 

 

Other than that -res are fine with the pylon test if testing between builds, but in that case they both need the -res slotted in as well. It's a nitro boost and both builds need it so they can be compared. That X combo can slot more -res procs does not make it better than Z combo outside of pylons since -res procs have so little impact in actual gameplay.

 

I don't know how this works for PvP. I'm pretty surprised -res procs are used there since I thought it was a bursty meta but I live and a I learn.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Sovera

[nihilii]

+25% effective damage into +5% effective damage seems like a pretty extreme difference. It doesn't fit my own experience. There's a fair amount of variables: running content at +4 (~33% less efficiency, post level shift) and/or fighting enemies with resistances (resistance resists -res) and/or not applying -res as well in real scenarios as against a Pylon.

 

I tend to run very "boring" builds with little conditional damage: meleers with taunt auras, running easy attack chains, with low points where clicks easily fit, generally with a fair amount if not a majority of energy or fire damage, and with overkill survivability.

 

As a result, my Pylon results tend to map pretty well to standard content. Not 1:1 (what does?), but I have never had a build where (i.e.) trading a -res proc for a damage proc would improve my DPS in real conditions.

 

I can think of specific builds that look better on Pylon tests that in the overall real game (Claws, Dual Blades). And EM, with zero -res procs, doesn't look as overpowering as it actually is. Some people probably mistakenly confuse Pylon prowess for absolute ranking. But I'd wager most of us are not assuming this level of granularity from Pylon smashing. Pylons are a starting point, a shortcut, generally a pretty good one.

Edited May 21, 2021 by nihilii

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

+25% effective damage into +5% effective damage seems like a pretty extreme difference. It doesn't fit my own experience. There's a fair amount of variables: running content at +4 (~33% less efficiency, post level shift) and/or fighting enemies with resistances (resistance resists -res) and/or not applying -res as well in real scenarios as against a Pylon.

 

I tend to run very "boring" builds with little conditional damage: meleers with taunt auras, running easy attack chains, with low points where clicks easily fit, generally with a fair amount if not a majority of energy or fire damage, and with overkill survivability.

 

As a result, my Pylon results tend to map pretty well to standard content. Not 1:1 (what does?), but I have never had a build where (i.e.) trading a -res proc for a damage proc would improve my DPS in real conditions.

 

I can think of specific builds that look better on Pylon tests that in the overall real game (Claws, Dual Blades). And EM, with zero -res procs, doesn't look as overpowering as it actually is. Some people probably mistakenly confuse Pylon prowess for absolute ranking. But I'd wager most of us are not assuming this level of granularity from Pylon smashing. Pylons are a starting point, a shortcut, generally a pretty good one.

 

I can only speak for myself, Nihili. I did ask others to test as well but received zero answers. It's fine, but that just means there is no data to back up my sample of one.

 

I posted my finds in the Pylon thread but to summarize again:

 

- Pylon test with -res procs. Pylon test with -res procs changed for damage procs. 4 minute average runs with damage procs turned into 3 minute runs with -res procs so the 25% damage increase I mention (I'm a baboon when it comes to math so please someone correct me if I spout stupid shit).

- 5 minute beating multiple different +4 AVs using the Architect missions using -res procs and then 5 minutes of doing the same but using damage procs instead. Compared the HP of the AV at the 5 minute mark. -res procs were between 5% to 8% ahead of the damage procs.

- Comic Con farm map. No clickies used, no inspirations. Multiple cleared maps while using -res procs, then clearing map while using damage procs showed no significant difference (certainly not 25% faster times).

- Quick and dirty one run of Trapdoor with -res procs and then a run with damage procs au lieu of -res procs showed no significant difference.

 

I don't claim to be a mathmagician or that my tests were perfectly run. The AV tests in particular were tricky since I -should- have done them until the AV died, but instead tried to get the tooltip of the AV's HP at the 5 minute mark. This can produce user errors as I tried to grasp all the numbers and not mistake a 6 for an 8 (crummy fonts) or decide if a regen tick happening while looking at the numbers counted or not, but the tests were ran multiple times. I have them posted in the Scrapper's Pylon thread and the difference never budged from 5-8% so even whiffing and user error were at least consistent.

[Sovera]

Incidentally the Reactive Interface bettered the times in one minute for Comic Con testing, but not because of the -res but because of the medium DoT. Testing with 75% chance for -res had no difference with the sample run done with no Interface slotted. 75% chance for DoT bettered the times by one minute-ish. Degenerative with 75% chance for -HP made no significant different where 75% DoT time bettered the times in about 30 seconds ish.

 

Neither Reactive showed any difference between test runs against +4 AVs with no Interface slotted. Both Degeneratives showed an appreciable difference in AV HP at the end of the test which is why I always go for Degenerative 75% chance for DoT since it works for both.

 

Again, sample data of me which is woefully poor for data purposes.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Sovera