Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

But at the caps it's pretty simple

 

Something rare for brutes unless teamed with buffers. I don't live at the caps. The vast majority of the time I'm never at them unless I just fired off barrier or I'm hitting the damage cap combining insps on my farmer.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Something rare for brutes unless teamed with buffers. I don't live at the caps. The vast majority of the time I'm never at them unless I just fired off barrier or I'm hitting the damage cap combining insps on my farmer.

Right, that's what I was saying in my post. If you're not at the caps, your damage will be quite a bit more than a tank (25-44%, for typical options). At the caps (thanks to buffers or inspirations) will likely also put your Brute at the resistance/defense caps. The thing you likely won't be at the cap on (in this scenario) is HP. And unless the tanker variant is at the cap, its HP will likely be 25% more than a brute's. Then again, in this scenario, you probably have heals, enemy debuffs, etc also adding to your mitigation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Right, that's what I was saying in my post. If you're not at the caps, your damage will be quite a bit more than a tank (25-44%, for typical options). At the caps (thanks to buffers or inspirations) will likely also put your Brute at the resistance/defense caps. The thing you likely won't be at the cap on (in this scenario) is HP. And unless the tanker variant is at the cap, its HP will likely be 25% more than a brute's. Then again, in this scenario, you probably have heals, enemy debuffs, etc also adding to your mitigation.

 

Doesn't this line of thinking completely ignore solo gameplay on the mitigation front? If I'm not at the caps on damage, I'm not gonna be there on mitigation either and so there will come a point when the tank's damage output exceeds the brute's cuz the brute is busy sniffing dirt and thus doing 0 DPS. This said, I fully grok that with the game as it is, the probability of the brute (or even the scrapper) eating dirt starts to reach nil making the whole argument hilarious unless one actively chooses to force added difficulty.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Arbegla]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Its not unrelated.  I have given the numbers in support of my proposition.  All I have received in return is “no”.  You want me to give up on it?  Then show me where my math was wrong.  Show me how any toon with 45% defense takes only 101 damage at +4, while a scrapper at 75% resistance takes 252 damage under the same circumstances.   How a 40% defense hard cap increases that 101 to 202, which is still lower than 75% resistance.  Show me the math that balances 101 to equal 252.

 

I've addressed this in other threads, but you've simply missing the point of this thread, and abusing averages to try to make a point that simply doesn't exist about mitigation.

 

For example:

 

0% defense = 50% chance to hit

45% defense = 5% chance to hit

 

20 attacks each doing 50 damage, coming at you every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 10 attacks hit each doing 12.5 damage = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands, doing 50 damage = 50dps, which is 50 damage per hit that land.

Chances for 3 attacks to land = 5%^3 = .01% chance you will take 150dps (as you have no resistance, and 3 attacks hit you within that second)

 

However, lets change the number of attacks, and the damage of each attack a bit, but leave the dps the same

 

10 attacks each doing 100 damage, coming at your every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 5 attacks hit each doing 25 damage  = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands every 2 seconds of combat = 50dps, but it is 100 damage per hit

Chances for 2 attacks to land = 5%^2 = .25% chance you will take 200dps (as you have no resistance, and 2 attacks hit you within that second)

 

1 attack, doing 1000 damage, coming at your every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 1 attack lands every 2 seconds doing 250 damage = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands every 20 seconds of combat = 50dps, but it is 1000 damage per hit.

Chances for 1 attack to land = 5%^1 = 5% chance you will take 1000dps. (as you have no resistance, and 1 attack hit you within that second)

 

Because defense has a softcap on it, and both the defense and tohit equations have floors built into them, the absolute lowest you can go is 5%. Better hope the NRG gods are on your side, cuz 1000 damage hurts.

 

And that isn't even counting if any of those attacks have -def, which ruins defense even more.

 

Resistance has always been more constant in its mitigation, and defense has always been more spiky. That's the inherent balance in them, and the floors within the combat formula don't take into account accuracy bonuses, which anything above a white minion will have. Those increase your chances to get hit even MORE, regardless of whatever defense you have.

 

edit: The above math isn't entirely accurate, but the true math just proves the point even more. @Bopperdoes an amazing job of explaining the true math further down in this thread. Defense can fail very easily, as its not 1 out of every 20 attacks hit, its each attack has a 5% chance of hitting. And the math is MUCH different between those two statements.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Arbegla

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Doesn't this line of thinking completely ignore solo gameplay on the mitigation front? If I'm not at the caps on damage, I'm not gonna be there on mitigation either and so there will come a point when the tank's damage output exceeds the brute's cuz the brute is busy sniffing dirt and thus doing 0 DPS. This said, I fully grok that with the game as it is, the probability of the brute (or even the scrapper) eating dirt starts to reach nil making the whole argument hilarious unless on actively chooses to force added difficulty.

Hard to say. It takes me a lot of reds to reach a damage cap. It might take me one purple to reach defense softcap (who am I kidding, I'm already at the softcap). It might take a few oranges to be at resistance cap, but popping those are usually not needed if I'm already defense softcapped.

 

If I want to restrict myself to not use inspirations while solo-playing (which is entirely a personal decision), then I would have to rely on my superior damage to help me mitigate damage. The sooner I can kill a threat, the more likely I survive. You mentioned you use claws, so I likely would open with Shockwave to knockdown the alpha, go in with spin to clear out some trash, then focus my energy into ST attacks on the real threats while I wait for my two AoEs to recharge. Combat jump straight up into Shockwave for a wide area knockdown, spin, repeat my ST onslaught. 

 

Being able to do that at 25-44% more damage than a tank helps. Granted, tanker spin will be stronger thanks to a 12ft radius and able to hit more than 10 targets, but the Brute will still hit the targets it will hit for 25-44% more damage. Does it even out? No. Does it close the gap? Yes.

 

One last thing to keep in mind with all this, Tanks only got the melee damage modifiers buffed. Their epics use ranged modifiers. So if you use a large AoE from epics (I like to use dark obliteration) and if you like to use Gloom (which is why I like to use dark obliteration), those attacks on a tanker use a 0.8 modifer while a brute still has a 0.75 modifier.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Chances for 3 attacks to land = 5%^3 = .01% chance you will take 150dps (as you have no resistance, and 3 attacks hit you within that second)

This is only true if only 3 attacks were attempted. However you stated there were 20 attacks. So you need to bust out some binomial probability to get exact values. I can do that for you, but I'm not sure if you want the probability of exactly 3 attacks landing or if you want probability of at least 3 attacks landing.

Also, 5% is only true if you are facing an even-con minion. If you are taking on higher level enemies and/or higher ranked enemies, they get accuracy modifiers that will increase their lowest probability to hit. For example, a +3 boss, with its 1.3x rank modifier and 1.3x level modifier will have an 8.45% chance to land an attack at softcapped defense.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

One last thing to keep in mind with all this, Tanks only got the melee damage modifiers buffed. Their epics use ranged modifiers. So if you use a large AoE from epics (I like to use dark obliteration) and if you like to use Gloom (which is why I like to use dark obliteration), those attacks on a tanker use a 0.8 modifer while a brute still has a 0.75 modifier.

 

Ugh. Please by the dark and elder gods get this fixed. It offends my OCD to psychotic levels when a power isn't using the right AT modifier. Set them in stone and fix everything for Satan's sake.

 

For the rest, I have zero issues using insps that drop. Go for it. They're there for a reason. (The hoarding of T4 insps in email are a topic that disgusts me on every level.) But doing so while solo still means I'm at neither cap unless I work REALLY farkin hard at it with insp combining macros. Something I don't have on anything but my farmer. Cuz when farming.. fark it, bring all the cheat codes.

 

The "gap" you're talking about is where my focus exists. There is a gap where the brute is better than the tank on damage output. That's 100% true across the board and there's no discussion there. But the same gap between the tank's ability to survive and the brute's is a much larger gap for the vast majority of the game.

 

If the scrapper's extra damage output compared to the brute's compared to the tank's was equitable across the board to the tank's mitigation versus the brute's mitigation to the scrapper's mitigation, I'd have nothing to discuss other than how much persistent mez protection favors those that have it versus those that don't.

 

But it's NOT equitable. The brute does NOT sit between the scrapper and the tank. It's sits far too close to the scrapper on mitigation and the tank on damage output... at least for the post 50 game.

[Wavicle]

But damage output is more valuable than mitigation, ultimately. And so the fact that the tank is further ahead on mitigation than the brute is on damage doesn’t matter.

 

edit: By doesn’t matter I mean they are still balanced despite it. I don’t mean it’s meaningless.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Wavicle

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Some notions are actually based around numbers.  

Numbers pertaining to crazy ideas are they themselves crazy at that point.

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's sits far too close to the scrapper on mitigation

Closer to the tanker actually.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ugh. Please by the dark and elder gods get this fixed. It offends my OCD to psychotic levels when a power isn't using the right AT modifier. Set them in stone and fix everything for Satan's sake.

There is no fix, that is intended. The epics were never intended to have their damage buffed during the tanker buffs. So when Page 4 dropped, Tankers and Brutes had their epics changed from Melee_Damage table to Ranged_Damage table. To compensate for this, the Brute Ranged_Damage modifier was changed from 0.5 to 0.75 to match its melee modifer, and the Tanker Ranged_Damage modifier was changed from 0.5 to 0.80 to match its melee modifer (at the time). 

So in summary, Tankers and Brutes got a buff to their ranged damage modifiers in I26/Page4 that set it to their original melee damage modifiers (hooray if you used pool power ranged attacks, as they now do 50%-60% more damage). Epics switched to ranged damage modifiers so that they would do the same damage after Page 4 as they did before Page 4. Then Tankers had their melee damage modifiers increased from 0.80 to 0.95. 

In the end, Tankers got a buff for their Primary/Secondary/Pool powers. Brutes got a buff for their ranged Pool powers. And there is no change to epic power performance, thus fury from brutes on epics is amazeballs compared to tanker epics.

[Arbegla]

30 minutes ago, Bopper said:

This is only true if only 3 attacks were attempted. However you stated there were 20 attacks. So you need to bust out some binomial probability to get exact values. I can do that for you, but I'm not sure if you want the probability of exactly 3 attacks landing or if you want probability of at least 3 attacks landing.

Also, 5% is only true if you are facing an even-con minion. If you are taking on higher level enemies and/or higher ranked enemies, they get accuracy modifiers that will increase their lowest probability to hit. For example, a +3 boss, with its 1.3x rank modifier and 1.3x level modifier will have an 8.45% chance to land an attack at softcapped defense.

 

The point I was making was 'this is the chance of at least N attacks landing' where N = the first whole number that would need to be multiplied by the incoming damage per attack to equal or exceed the DPS the resistance character is taking. For 50 damage per attack, N is 3, 100 damage per attack, N is 2, etc.

 

I tried to address the second paragraph you posted, but I didn't provide numbers. Basically no amount of defense will protect you from accuracy boosts, as accuracy increases the 'floor' value after the defense/tohit portion of the combat formula is already figured out.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Arbegla

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

The point I was making was 'this is the chance of at least N attacks landing' where N = the first whole number that would need to be multiplied by the incoming damage per attack to equal or exceed the DPS the resistance character is taking. For 50 damage per attack, N is 3, 100 damage per attack, N is 2, etc.

In that case, the easiest way to calculate the probability of experiencing 3 or more hits given 20 attack opportunities occured, we want to calculate the exact probability of experiencing 0, 1, and 2 hits out of 20, then subtract that from 100%.

P(0) = (1-0.05)^20 = 35.85%
P(1) = 20 x (1-0.05)^19 x 0.05 = 37.74%
P(2) = 20! / (18! x 2!) x (1-0.05)^18 x 0.05^2 = 18.87%

P(3+) = 100% - P(0) - P(1) - P(2) = 7.5484%

So in summary, the probability of experiencing 3 or more 50 damage attacks from 20 even-con minions is 7.5484%.

It will obviously go much higher if you factor in accuracy modifiers for harder enemies.

[Arbegla]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In that case, the easiest way to calculate the probability of experiencing 3 or more hits given 20 attack opportunities occured, we want to calculate the exact probability of experiencing 0, 1, and 2 hits out of 20, then subtract that from 100%.

P(0) = (1-0.05)^20 = 35.85%
P(1) = 20 x (1-0.05)^19 x 0.05 = 37.74%
P(2) = 20! / (18! x 2!) x (1-0.05)^18 x 0.05^2 = 18.87%

P(3+) = 100% - P(0) - P(1) - P(2) = 7.5484%

So in summary, the probability of experiencing 3 or more 50 damage attacks from 20 even-con minions is 7.5484%.

It will obviously go much higher if you factor in accuracy modifiers for harder enemies.

 

Which proves the point even harder. The most targets you have attacking you, the more chances for that 5% chance to fail. And then you get hit hard in the face because you have no resistance to back it up.

[Brutal Justice]

36 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I've addressed this in other threads, but you've simply missing the point of this thread, and abusing averages to try to make a point that simply doesn't exist about mitigation.

 

For example:

 

0% defense = 50% chance to hit

45% defense = 5% chance to hit

 

20 attacks each doing 50 damage, coming at you every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 10 attacks hit each doing 12.5 damage = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands, doing 50 damage = 50dps, which is 50 damage per hit that land.

Chances for 3 attacks to land = 5%^3 = .01% chance you will take 150dps (as you have no resistance, and 3 attacks hit you within that second)

 

However, lets change the number of attacks, and the damage of each attack a bit, but leave the dps the same

 

10 attacks each doing 100 damage, coming at your every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 5 attacks hit each doing 25 damage  = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands every 2 seconds of combat = 50dps, but it is 100 damage per hit

Chances for 2 attacks to land = 5%^2 = .25% chance you will take 200dps (as you have no resistance, and 2 attacks hit you within that second)

 

1 attack, doing 1000 damage, coming at your every second = 1000dps

75% resistance, 0% defense -> 1 attack lands every 2 seconds doing 250 damage = 125dps

0% resistance, 45% defense -> 1 attack lands every 20 seconds of combat = 50dps, but it is 1000 damage per hit.

Chances for 1 attack to land = 5%^1 = 5% chance you will take 1000dps. (as you have no resistance, and 1 attack hit you within that second)

 

Because defense has a softcap on it, and both the defense and tohit equations have floors built into them, the absolute lowest you can go is 5%. Better hope the NRG gods are on your side, cuz 1000 damage hurts.

 

And that isn't even counting if any of those attacks have -def, which ruins defense even more.

 

Resistance has always been more constant in its mitigation, and defense has always been more spiky. That's the inherent balance in them, and the floors within the combat formula don't take into account accuracy bonuses, which anything above a white minion will have. Those increase your chances to get hit even MORE, regardless of whatever defense you have.

 

Rather comical.  I posted the exact same numbers right here. 

 

And then some.  You got two likes.  I got crickets.  We posted the same numbers and yet somehow you think your numbers are showing balance and mine are not?

 

i showed the average.  You show the spike.  You get a like.  They are the same numbers.  For every 5 spikes of damage you take 95 zeroes.  Zero damage, zero debuffs.  

 

a spike is more damage. True

 

On average you take much less damage.  Also true.  

 

A resist scrapper is consistent in its death.  A defense scrapper is more random in its death.  Both true.  

 

Go stand afk in a mob with 45% defense and see how long you last.  You’ll have to take an average of your times because some will be super short and others super long.  

 

Go stand in a mob with 75% resistance and see how long you last.  You will still take the average time again but this time they will be closer.  

 

Any testing is done with multiple batches.  Whether it’s testing in a game or in real life.  It’s the average that matters, not the spike.  

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Which proves the point even harder. The most targets you have attacking you, the more chances for that 5% chance to fail. And then you get hit hard in the face because you have no resistance to back it up.

When you stated the probability of 3 attacks hitting you would only be 0.01% it seemed like you were selling the fact defense softcap is more amazing than it is. This is why I wanted to clarify your numbers as your intent didn't seem to match your analysis.

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Rather comical.  I posted the exact same numbers right here. 

 

And then some.  You got two likes.  I got crickets.  We posted the same numbers and yet somehow you think your numbers are showing balance and mine are not?

 

i showed the average.  You show the spike.  You get a like.  They are the same numbers.  For every 5 spikes of damage you take 95 zeroes.  Zero damage, zero debuffs.  

 

a spike is more damage. True

 

On average you take much less damage.  Also true.  

 

A resist scrapper is consistent in its death.  A defense scrapper is more random in its death.  Both true.  

 

Go stand afk in a mob with 45% defense and see how long you last.  You’ll have to take an average of your times because some will be super short and others super long.  

 

Go stand in a mob with 75% resistance and see how long you last.  You will still take the average time again but this time they will be closer.  

 

Any testing is done with multiple batches.  Whether it’s testing in a game or in real life.  It’s the average that matters, not the spike.  

 

Except you're not measuring the average. You're assuming 1 in every 20 attacks hit. That's not how probability works. You can't average it out and say that its fine. 

 

Spikes happen. Multiple failures happen. You're not immune to everything at 45% defense. You're not even immune to 95% of the things. There is a reason the streakbreaker exists for players. We're dealing with a semi-random number generator, with caps and floors. Statistics are much harder then that. Things like N choose K (which is what @Bopper did, and I should've realized that sooner) are what you want to use, not simple 1 out of 20 attacks.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Arbegla

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

When you stated the probability of 3 attacks hitting you would only be 0.01% it seemed like you were selling the fact defense softcap is more amazing than it is. This is why I wanted to clarify your numbers as your intent didn't seem to match your analysis.

 

I put an edit on my post to hopefully deter using the wrong math. Your analysis using true statistics is more accurate. And hammers the point home.

[Leo_G]

38 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Ugh. Please by the dark and elder gods get this fixed. It offends my OCD to psychotic levels when a power isn't using the right AT modifier. Set them in stone and fix everything for Satan's sake.

 

 

Well obviously, the problem is that a lot of the complicating factors have been ironed out and it's too easily gameable which is why we have the capability of min/maxing to such a degree that there is contention with the extreme minutia of who does the most damage while having the highest calculated mitigation rather than just how the set handles overall.

 

Need more differentiation between melee and range mods so some niche benefits muddy the waters.

 

Heck, why not start separating damage buffs too?  So just like resists, those damage buffs don't always apply to every attack.  Now you need the niche "energies" damage buff to buff your Energy/Dark melee exotic damage whereas "physical" damage buffs are more prominent for how often resistances exists. 

 

I look upon people with OCD and scoff.  You barely know the meaning of pain as yours is only imaginary.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

All I have received in return is “no”.  You want me to give up on it?  Then show me where my math was wrong.

 

No.

 

The idea sucks, so your math is irrelevant.

 

Game design is more than just bad ideas backed by questionable math.

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

No.

 

The idea sucks, so your math is irrelevant.

 

Game design is more than just bad ideas backed by questionable math.

 

I mean, even outside of 'the idea sucks' he's not using the right math to back up his claims.

[Bill Z Bubba]

40 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But damage output is more valuable than mitigation, ultimately. And so the fact that the tank is further ahead on mitigation than the brute is on damage doesn’t matter.

 

edit: By doesn’t matter I mean they are still balanced despite it. I don’t mean it’s meaningless.

 

No.

 

34 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Closer to the tanker actually.

 

Also, no.

 

31 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In the end, Tankers got a buff for their Primary/Secondary/Pool powers. Brutes got a buff for their ranged Pool powers. And there is no change to epic power performance, thus fury from brutes on epics is amazeballs compared to tanker epics.

 

Don't care. Each AT should do its value of damage regardless of the power chosen. Full stop.

 

6 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

I look upon people with OCD and scoff.  You barely know the meaning of pain as yours is only imaginary.

 

My knowledge of pain far exceeds anything even remotely related to gaming or computers or philosophy, thanks much.

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I mean, even outside of 'the idea sucks' he's not using the right math to back up his claims.

Not wrong, I just find the trend of people going "here's my awful idea, I did the math, use your own math to prove my idea wrong!" to be generally annoying.

 

The idea isn't in the game, so any math provided for it is worthless.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Also, no.

Yes it as, unless you have a scrapper that can res cap at 90

[Brutal Justice]

14 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Except you're not measuring the average. You're assuming 1 in every 20 attacks hit. That's not how probability works. You can't average it out and say that its fine. 

 

Spikes happen. Multiple failures happen. You're not immune to everything at 45% defense. You're not even immune to 95% of the things. There is a reason the streakbreaker exists for players.

 

So with Boppers probability numbers you have a 7.55% chance of taking 150dps with 45% defense?

 

Does the 75% resist scrapper have a 50% chance of taking 125 dps?

 

is that right @Bopper?

 

I’ve been waiting for one of our math gurus to jump in.  Using the math, how long on average does the 45% defense toon with 1500 hp last and how long does the 75% resist toon last?