Is Empathy Dead?

[kikyoku]

If a tornado passes by while you are in your basement, unaware, you had a boring night.

 

If you are on the deck in a mild thunderstorm you had an exciting night.

 

People prefer defense buffs because it makes them feel safe. Use FF and your team will clear a difficult fight and never know the danger. Use empathy and they will think they are on the verge of defeat. Empathy is the best support because it allows you to taste the challenge even in endgame.

 

Just because you were at half HP more often does not mean you were any less safe, you just noticed it before you were pulled back to your comfort zone.

 

People think empathy is bad because they get mad when their billion inf build goes to red hp, and then say the game is too easy when it doesn't.

 

Your team says "good heals" because they get glowing green notifications every time you save them. They feel like gods because ra turned on and they tasted immortality for a moment. With thermal or pain they just sit in their bubbles never knowing the glory of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

[Wavicle]

Make Resurrection an AoE rez that kills the empath.

[LeoTheCat]

Not to threadjack or anything, but we have a good discussion going on at the Suggestions + Feedback board about revising Empathy. We'd love to hear from you guys if you have any ideas for making the powerset better or want to comment on some of the changes proposed by myself and others.

 

 

[dangeraaron10]

On 5/27/2021 at 1:56 PM, Barneysaurus said:

Empathy is still very good, but its worst powers are arguably its earliest- its heals, and to get to its highest potential you need excellent +recharge bonuses.

Because many users focus on the most obvious, but least versatile powers (heals) the set does come off as lackluster.

To most new user: "oh, focus on Heal aura/heal other/absorb pain/resurrect!" If you play with seasoned users, you won't need to heal as often, especially at high levels. Meanwhile, best powers:

 

Fortitude: many only use this on the tank, if they use it at all. Most don't realize it's better than all leaderships toggle buffs combined, in one click. Its defense is the same as both forcefield single bubbles combined, then some. The damage buff is arguably its best portion, making it *wonderful* on high-base damage archetypes like blasters, dominators, scrappers, stalkers, who are rarely the obvious targets. The recharge was reduced since live, making this far easier to keep up 24/7 on a full team. Yet folks who do use this often use it reactively, keeping it up only on targets that take damage as a 'I hope this lets them stay alive while my heals recharge' rather than using it *preemptively* to keep any damage from getting through, and keeping the entire team hitting more often, at a 30% damage increase. (That's actually better than siphon power's damage buff, equivalent to a medium red inspire at all times)

Adrenaline boost: As good recharge as 2x speed boosts, people see the heal on it and think this is something to save until somebody is almost dead, rather than focused on the highest recharge/biggest impact powers to keep those up all the time. If this power is not on cooldown, I would argue it's not doing its best work, but again folks think it's more of a heal you can use and forget for its duration. They alternatively use it to fill up blue, which is good, but many endgame characters use tons of bonuses/incarnate stuff to get past that.

 

RA's: (Recovery/regeneration aura) While recovery Aura is the standout for early build that are panting for blue, it is often the darling with regeneration often an afterthought. Regeneration is far harder to find, and is far better with fortitude to patch any damage that does slip past the defense. Many again use these only when green/blue are low, and due to the recovery/healing over time, they are worst when folks are already low enough for toggles to drop/health to get spiked and they go down. These are best used proactively before the a big fight,  (requiring game awareness) done *without* the 'gather' call (many seasoned players hate being held back, or being told where to be) and just fired off when most of the team is in range. These have ridiculously long recharges, so without *excellent* recharge bonuses, they aren't available reliably, leading them to the common "save them for the right moment" treatment that also means they are used even less often than they are available.

 

TLDR: People think Empathy is reactive, and when your team is awesome there is little to react to. Folks don't realize the best powers are the buffs, for the "better than speed boost without running into walls" adrenalin boost, and the "you are forcefielded with big damage and decent accuracy" fortitude.

Empathy is best used proactively. Then you can react even better, because less healing will be needed. Yes, on big teams there's then a lot of monitoring the buffs, and a lot of clicks, but that's what a buff set does.

 

 

This post inspired me to make an Emp Defender.  With a secondary with secondary effects that Defender can boost and proc of course.  Maybe Emp/Dark

[Psylenz0511]

52 minutes ago, dangeraaron10 said:

This post inspired me to make an Emp Defender.  With a secondary with secondary effects that Defender can boost and proc of course.  Maybe Emp/Dark

You can proc both rad blast and water blast, too.

[DrInfernus]

I do wonder how much ego is involved in the whole ‘heals aren’t needed anymore’ rhetoric. Over the last couple nights I have specifically played my healer exclusively and find she’s been needed on teams more often than not, including high level content. 
 

To me, it honestly just feels like declaring healers as obsolete is just another way to show off their superbuild. Admittedly, some people on some ATs have incredibly survivable builds. I’m one of them. But there’s always someone somewhere on the team who needs some help to get out of trouble. We should value and appreciate our empaths more. 

[Seldom]

14 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

This post inspired me to make an Emp Defender.  With a secondary with secondary effects that Defender can boost and proc of course.  Maybe Emp/Dark

Nice! I would offer one suggestion: if you are leaning into the team empowering role, few sets match as nicely as the leadership pool, particularly on defenders. Defenders get the BEST numbers for the team buffs. While fully enhanced maneuvers is around ~%3.5 defense on other non-support characters, defenders it's ~5.5%...assault is even better, arguably one of the hardest buffs on defenders to pass up, handing a nice +18% damage.

Stacking fully enhanced fortitude on all the team, then adding assault/maneuvers/tactics with one click and three toggles your team will be at:
29.5% defense to ALL, (when fully enhanced)
+31.25% tohit (UNenhanced)
+50% damage
As long as you have decent recharge in fortitude, that's at all times. Not bad, and that's before some lucky fool gets adrenalin boost, and the team gets regen/recovery aura.

[Psylenz0511]

Stepping back, I think we all agree that Empathy benefits from increased global recharge, so I am changing my support to /energy secondary with the Force feedback +recharge proc and the KB>KD at least in the AoE attacks. The +recharge proc  works great on my storm defender; it should be a welcome feature to an empathy build.

[Seldom]

9 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

I To me, it honestly just feels like declaring healers as obsolete is just another way to show off their superbuild. Admittedly, some people on some ATs have incredibly survivable builds. I’m one of them. But there’s always someone somewhere on the team who needs some help to get out of trouble. We should value and appreciate our empaths more. 

 

But that would take that...what's the word for it, you know, when you think about something someone else might be feeling, and share it with them? Or think about others and sympathetically feel for them and their situation? Dangit, I can't think of the word. 😉

[tidge]

On 6/3/2021 at 6:35 PM, Nemu said:

There's one thing I care about more than any other buff in Emp's arsenal and it's not listed here. All the forts and RAs in the world mean nothing when those without mez protection can't do anything due to mezzes. Sure they aren't dying, but they are also not contributing. Conventional wisdom nowadays is to ignore the anti-mez powers and I hardly see people using them reactively, much less proactively, and that is a terrible shame.

 

I think this is a good point, and I think has been good discussion around it. My own (selfish) build attitudes tend to make me want to skip (or deprioritize) certain powers that only target individual allies because I benefit so little from the power while at the same time (thanks to IOs) almost every character can invest in themselves to be less likely to need those powers be applied to them.

 

I only dabbled with Empathy a little bit on (early) live, so I don't consider myself really qualified to comment on the set as a player... but when I am running lower level content for PUGs at higher difficulties I see teams with a good mix of ATs (including Empaths) do better than teams without.

[Wavicle]

Isn't Empathy literally the most popular support set?

[America's Angel]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Isn't Empathy literally the most popular support set?

 

Yup!

 

(Here's how the other ATs compare...)

 

 

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

So, far and away the most popular Defender primary and middle of the pack on all ATs as a secondary. Lower on Corruptors, which shouldn't be surprising since it doesn't offer anything to boost the Corruptor's own damage.

 

Interesting that the least popular sets are almost universally the ones that provide the user with Mez Protection. I wonder how Electric is doing.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Wavicle

[America's Angel]

What's doubly interesting is that you can't blame Empathy's lead on Defenders as being due to Empathy being good in PvP. (Because most PvP emps are controllers.)

[RageusQuitus2]

On 5/27/2021 at 12:55 AM, Tahliah said:

Nice heals" really does mean, "yay! I didn't die and I thank YOU for it.."

Just because your buffs/debuffs mean your heals arent as necessary, doesnt mean you didnt save someones bacon with a timely heal or two.  Could legit mean nice heals. Heals are still part of damage mitigation and even well built toons need an assist now and then.

[oedipus_tex]

I mentioned this in the other Empathy thread in the Suggestions forum, but I do not read the number of players playing a set as an endorsement of its abilities. Empathy is popular because a lot of MMO players are drawn to the Cleric/Priest/healer playstyle. The set could do more to cater to that style.

 

Anyway, according to that list, Force Field is #5, ahead of Storm, Nature, Dark, and Cold. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[kikyoku]

16 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I mentioned this in the other Empathy thread in the Suggestions forum, but I do not read the number of players playing a set as an endorsement of its abilities. Empathy is popular because a lot of MMO players are drawn to the Cleric/Priest/healer playstyle. The set could do more to cater to that style.

 

Anyway, according to that list, Force Field is #5, ahead of Storm, Nature, Dark, and Cold. 

Real. The fact that it's only that popular on defenders means people pick it to be a 'healer', not because it's the most fun or interesting.

 

I would love to see data on how many created vs level 50 there are,  and total play time.

 

Anecdotally, I definitely see emps around, but they are far from the overwhelming majority implied by that chart.

[Tahliah]

20 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Just because your buffs/debuffs mean your heals arent as necessary, doesnt mean you didnt save someones bacon with a timely heal or two.  Could legit mean nice heals. Heals are still part of damage mitigation and even well built toons need an assist now and then.

My point precisely.

 

Players who don't play defenders (or /emp), etc. have no idea what we do or how we do it.  They just know their health bar doesn't crash, and they don't really care what powers we use to make sure it doesn't.  If they see a green (or whatever color people tint with) flash that jumps their health, they assume that it's only these heals that are keeping them alive.  They may not be looking at their buffs or see the debuffs on the baddies, and frankly, I doubt they really care.  I'm fine with that.  That's why I always take "nice heals" as "Woots!  I didn't die, and you defender types I think of as "healers" are responsible. Thank you!".  It's better to hear "nice heals" than not a damn thing when you are busting your butt keeping a team alive, right?  I'm just saying don't be insulted by "nice heals"; it's a good thing to hear even if your defender has or used no heals at all.

 

I really don't care what powers a tank uses, as an example of an AT I do not play, but if they can hold aggro, yay!  Okay, not really the same thing, but you know what I mean.  Heh.

[Doomguide2005]

19 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I mentioned this in the other Empathy thread in the Suggestions forum, but I do not read the number of players playing a set as an endorsement of its abilities. Empathy is popular because a lot of MMO players are drawn to the Cleric/Priest/healer playstyle. The set could do more to cater to that style.

 

Anyway, according to that list, Force Field is #5, ahead of Storm, Nature, Dark, and Cold. 

Agreed.  It's a theme and roleplaying catch for most.   Probably the same for Force Fields.  They're classics.   The chart also doesn't give any weight difference between reached 50 and gets shelved (or put on follow on some farm map) and those Emps  which have spent 100's if not 1000's of hours playing at that level outside AE farms.

[Tahliah]

20 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I mentioned this in the other Empathy thread in the Suggestions forum, but I do not read the number of players playing a set as an endorsement of its abilities. Empathy is popular because a lot of MMO players are drawn to the Cleric/Priest/healer playstyle. The set could do more to cater to that style.

 

Anyway, according to that list, Force Field is #5, ahead of Storm, Nature, Dark, and Cold. 

I think this is true, and it's interesting that the graph @America's Angelincluded is for lvl 50s.  Players stick with empathy on their defenders right up to end game (not sure if they play into incarnate or not).  And I don't think there is anything at all wrong with players choosing empathy for the "traditional" MMO role of the healer, and it seems clear from the numbers that a great many players enjoy that playstyle.  That's okay, even good, because if that many players are having fun and loving what they are doing, that's a win.

 

Since empathy was here from the start and we've had so many other choices added for defenders, it may be time to give the set some love and make it really shine in that role.  Right now, with all the other upgrades to other ATs and the introduction of incarnates (all of which I love), empathy is not really useful once you hit 50 except on certain TFs, Rikti invasions, and the like.  I do love to exempt down and run my emp defenders and /emp trolls on lowbie teams (or on PI radios, etc.) where their powers are useful, but only my plant/emp is useful once in incarnate content (DA, trials). 

[FUBARczar]

I'd rather both play and have Pain or Thermal on my team.  

[Doomguide2005]

42 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

I'd rather both play and have Pain or Thermal on my team.  

So the obvious question is why?  Is it the debuffs, resistance based shields or something else (or all the above)?  What, in general, would make the choice more difficult?

[Wavicle]

I'd rather have an Empath on my team but only if they play as a buffer, keeping Fort up on as many people as possible all the time, casting RAs on cooldown when the team is grouped up without calling for gather. Putting Clear Mind on people who are likely to need it. Most people seem not to play them like that, which might be part of the problem. If you play as a Healer and not a buffer then yes, you are going to underperform.

Interestingly, there are Bad healers in other games too. In WoW bad healers spam their lowest level heals, don't use cooldowns or use them at the wrong time. In FFXIV bad healers only heal instead of attacking. Small wonder there are bad healers in CoH too.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Wavicle

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

So the obvious question is why?  Is it the debuffs, resistance based shields or something else (or all the above)?  What, in general, would make the choice more difficult?

Don't get me wrong Emps can be strong, but...

 

- I like the mix of buffs and debuffs in Pain and Thermal

- I am always going to to play more offensively minded so of course I'd prefer something like a Pain Defender which also buffs itself with +tohit, +damage, +resist, etc.

- I don't see the need for a dedicated healer and too many Emp are "pure Emps" who focus too much on Emp'ing and don't help enough directly in a fight

- the +resist buffs  from other sets means less need for healing, and it helps a lot on alphas and spikes as opposed to relying on an Emp's reflexes?

- I have seen Sonic Resonance keep teams alive better than an Emp running 801.D in AE

- so yeah an Emp doesn't suit me, instead for myself I prefer to play Dark, Pain, Time, and Nature

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by FUBARczar

[RageusQuitus2]

I havent played an emp in forever.  But the lack of debuffs would concern me on a fender.  So maybe Ice for the debuffs and decent damage?  hit your big 2  targeted AOEs.  Then back to supporting  refresh the above and throw in some of the nice procd out single targets and....  not so bad?  To bad ya cant fort yourself lol and clear mind (or for that matter fort once for team like speed boost and some other fender power improvements).  You can get some strong -regen from epic but that pool isnt so hot.

Edited June 12, 2021 by RageusQuitus2
corrected ice attacks