Make Frostwork an Absorb Shield

[Adeon Hawkwood]

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

Why are you tanking if you can't heal yourself?

Super Reflexes. Shield Defense. Both are Tanker sets without heals in them. Additionally several other sets have Dull Pain equivalents which in addition to not being an on demand heal boost the Tanker's Max HP pretty close to the cap already so they aren't really going to benefit from the extra HP from Frostwork anyway.

 

Also you're ignoring my point. I'd need to heal 100 HP either way. The extra Max HP just gives me slightly longer to do it in.

 

Off the top of my head the only defense set that would really benefit from the extra HP on it's own is Willpower due to the way that Max HP interacts with Regeneration.

[Solvernia]

Super Reflexes. Shield Defense. Both are Tanker sets without heals in them.

 

All tanks can and should be capable of healing themselves. If you don't have that ability, you're objectively not as good as a tank who does. If you're playing one of the tank sets that doesn't have a self-heal, then stock up on green insps, take Aid Self, or even the Med Pack power from the P2W vendor.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Super Reflexes. Shield Defense. Both are Tanker sets without heals in them.

 

All tanks can and should be capable of healing themselves. If you don't have that ability, you're objectively not as good as a tank who does. If you're playing one of the tank sets that doesn't have a self-heal, then stock up on green insps, take Aid Self, or even the Med Pack power from the P2W vendor.

Both of which ignores my point that if I need to heal 1000 HP then I need to heal 1000 HP. All having more Max HP does is give me slightly longer to do it.

 

Plus if I'm playing say Stone or Invulnerability then my HP is at or close to the cap anyway so I get literally no benefit from Frostwork.

 

EDIT: A Tanker with Dull Pain, The Max HP Accolades and an Unbreakable Guard Max HP IO has 3494 HP out of a limit of 3534. How does Frostwork help them?

[Solvernia]

Both of which ignores my point that if I need to heal 1000 HP then I need to heal 1000 HP. All having more Max HP does is give me slightly longer to do it.

 

I'm ignoring this point because it's not an important or relevant point.

 

Plus if I'm playing say Stone or Invulnerability then my HP is at or close to the cap anyway so I get literally no benefit from Frostwork.

 

If you're playing Stone or Invulnerability, then you get very little benefit from defense or resist shields. Frostwork at least puts you at the max HP cap; the only thing that def/resist shields do to someone who has capped def/resist is provide a buffer against debuffs. Which do not exist for max HP.

 

EDIT: A Tanker with Dull Pain, The Max HP Accolades and an Unbreakable Guard Max HP IO has 3494 HP out of a limit of 3534. How does Frostwork help them?

 

It doesn't, and that's when you cast Frostwork on someone else in the team.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

You know what, I'm out. I can't respond to your post without violating forum guidelines so I'm out.

[Solvernia]

You know what, I'm out. I can't respond to your post without violating forum guidelines so I'm out.

 

Okay! it was a pleasure having this discussion with you.

[Rylas]

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

 

Following the 2000/3000 HP example, I would still consider +HP to have the advantage.

 

2 Tanks; Tank 1 with 1000 +HP (sitting at 3000 HP), Tank 2 with 1000 Absorb (sitting at 2000 HP). Both take 1000 damage, both now have 2000 HP. But within the next regen click, Tank 1 will now have more HP than Tank 2, who will still only have 2000 HP. If more damage keeps coming in, Tank 1 will still have the benefit of high regen numbers.

[Trickshooter]

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

 

Following the 2000/3000 HP example, I would still consider +HP to have the advantage.

 

2 Tanks; Tank 1 with 1000 +HP (sitting at 3000 HP), Tank 2 with 1000 Absorb (sitting at 2000 HP). Both take 1000 damage, both now have 2000 HP. But within the next regen click, Tank 1 will now have more HP than Tank 2, who will still only have 2000 HP. If more damage keeps coming in, Tank 1 will still have the benefit of high regen numbers.

 

But even this only works if they started at max health. If they both had 2000 HP, took 1000 damage, and then one receives +MaxHP and the other gets Absorb, the one with +MaxHP still dies in two attacks, while the one with Absorb doesn't.

[Solvernia]

But even this only works if they started at max health. If they both had 2000 HP, took 1000 damage, and then one receives +MaxHP and the other gets Absorb, the one with +MaxHP still dies in two attacks, while the one with Absorb doesn't.

 

Frostwork is not a buff you put on someone in the middle of a fight, otherwise it would have a +heal component.

[Trickshooter]

But even this only works if they started at max health. If they both had 2000 HP, took 1000 damage, and then one receives +MaxHP and the other gets Absorb, the one with +MaxHP still dies in two attacks, while the one with Absorb doesn't.

 

Frostwork is not a buff you put on someone in the middle of a fight, otherwise it would have a +heal component.

 

I mean, my point was just that they have different uses. Frostwork with +MaxHP is better ahead of combat, but Frostwork with Absorb would be better reactively. Frostwork would be great with both, but again, I feel like Cold is already really powerful as is. I'd rather see us trying to figure out where to add Absorb to FF and Sonic.

[Rylas]

But even this only works if they started at max health. If they both had 2000 HP, took 1000 damage, and then one receives +MaxHP and the other gets Absorb, the one with +MaxHP still dies in two attacks, while the one with Absorb doesn't.

 

A very fair point; it's all incredibly subjective. Which is why it would be better if people could choose one way or the other dependent on their play style.

[jack_nomind]

Frostwork is not a buff you put on someone in the middle of a fight

 

Sure I do.

 

otherwise it would have a +heal component.

 

Directly adding current EHP is, in fact, what is being proposed.

[kelly Rocket]

+1 for making it an absorb shield tbh.

[Solvernia]

Directly adding current EHP is, in fact, what is being proposed.

 

So make Frostwork heal for exactly the amount of max HP it gives, or a little less. Would mean it's useful on both people who are at the max HP cap, and people who are not.

[jack_nomind]

So make Frostwork heal for exactly the amount of max HP it gives, or a little less. Would mean it's useful on both people who are at the max HP cap, and people who are not.

 

Or give it an absorb shield like it says it does.  Then it would be useful to both people who are at the max HP cap, and people who are not, also.

[Solvernia]

Or give it an absorb shield like it says it does.  Then it would be useful to both people who are at the max HP cap, and people who are not, also.

 

The description of Time Shift says it replaces enemies with past or future versions of themselves, but when I use it on Penelope Yin she doesn't turn into a little girl or a possessed monster, what gives?

[jack_nomind]

The description of Time Shift says it replaces enemies with past or future versions of themselves, but when I use it on Penelope Yin she doesn't turn into a little girl or a possessed monster, what gives?

 

I dunno, man.  Maybe you should make a suggestion thread for it?  I'm sure that, since you're using it as an analogy, it must be reasonably similar to what's being proposed here.

[Solvernia]

I dunno, man.  Maybe you should make a suggestion thread for it?  I'm sure that, since you're using it as an analogy, it must be reasonably similar to what's being proposed here.

 

Well, since the description of Frostwork says that it makes you absorb stuff, then using Frostwork should make you absorb stuff, you know? It just makes sense. So if Time Shift says that it replaces people with future versions of themselves, then using Time Shift should turn Penelope Yin into Penelope Mayhem. It just makes sense.

[Solarverse]

Here is something most players don't seem to understand. Absorb is nothing more than a +Max Hit Points ability. The only difference is that once it is gone, it's gone.

 

I would rather see the power made better somehow, like perhaps a slight regeneration bonus on top of the +Hit Points...not make it weaker by making it an Absorb.

[Leogunner]

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

 

Following the 2000/3000 HP example, I would still consider +HP to have the advantage.

 

2 Tanks; Tank 1 with 1000 +HP (sitting at 3000 HP), Tank 2 with 1000 Absorb (sitting at 2000 HP). Both take 1000 damage, both now have 2000 HP. But within the next regen click, Tank 1 will now have more HP than Tank 2, who will still only have 2000 HP. If more damage keeps coming in, Tank 1 will still have the benefit of high regen numbers.

 

But even this only works if they started at max health. If they both had 2000 HP, took 1000 damage, and then one receives +MaxHP and the other gets Absorb, the one with +MaxHP still dies in two attacks, while the one with Absorb doesn't.

 

*gasoline on fire*

 

But won't MaxHP buffs increase Absorb buffs?  I know it doesn't work the other way around though...

[Bossk_Hogg]

I feel like that would be a violation of the Cottage Rule.

 

If we absolutely must to cater to the people who like garbage powers, just give powersets with gimp options an extra pick. Fine 3 force fielders, you can keep detention field. Everyone else can get something useful.

[Solvernia]

If we absolutely must to cater to the people who like garbage powers, just give powersets with gimp options an extra pick. Fine 3 force fielders, you can keep detention field. Everyone else can get something useful.

 

Frostwork is objectively not a garbage power and I'm not sure what gives you that idea.

[jack_nomind]

Here is something most players don't seem to understand. Absorb is nothing more than a +Max Hit Points ability. The only difference is that once it is gone, it's gone.

 

You're right -- I don't understand that.

 

Absorb has a max and a current value, like HP.  Both are determined by effects, with current absorb being unable to exceed max absorb.  (Ordinarily, max absorb is 0.)  I don't know what the max absorb cap is, and I don't know if it's determined by the caster or by the target.  I do know that it's at least in the low thousands.  On a tanker who already has Dull Pain or Hoarfrost, an Absorb power would benefit them while a +maxhp power just... doesn't.  On a squishy who needs mitigation now, a few hundred points of absorb works quite well in a way capping their maxhp similarly fails to accomplish.

 

When almost every use case I can imagine is different, it's pretty hard for me to understand how they're identical.

 

 

[Solarverse]

Here is something most players don't seem to understand. Absorb is nothing more than a +Max Hit Points ability. The only difference is that once it is gone, it's gone.

 

You're right -- I don't understand that.

 

Absorb has a max and a current value, like HP.  Both are determined by effects, with current absorb being unable to exceed max absorb.  (Ordinarily, max absorb is 0.)  I don't know what the max absorb cap is, and I don't know if it's determined by the caster or by the target.  I do know that it's at least in the low thousands.  On a tanker who already has Dull Pain or Hoarfrost, an Absorb power would benefit them while a +maxhp power just... doesn't.  On a squishy who needs mitigation now, a few hundred points of absorb works quite well in a way capping their maxhp similarly fails to accomplish.

 

When almost every use case I can imagine is different, it's pretty hard for me to understand how they're identical.

 

The way I understand it goes like this. Absorb acts like a Force Field with a set amount of hit points. It does not regenerate. So once it is gone, it's gone, unless reapplied. Absorb is actually a heal. Every Dev of every game I have ever played that uses the Absorb mechanic has always said that it was a heal power, under the animation of absorb. Think other games here, when if you are hit, you are auto healed for the damage you are hit, up to a certain amount of hit points.

 

So they animate this with a shield effect, and presto, you have a new type of heal. Now if it works differently in this game, then please explain. This is something that was added after I left the game. So I may not have a full understanding of how Absorb in this game works...however, I would say my understanding of it is correct, if the original Devs pulled the Absorb idea from other games.

[jack_nomind]

So they animate this with a shield effect, and presto, you have a new type of heal. Now if it works differently in this game, then please explain. This is something that was added after I left the game. So I may not have a full understanding of how Absorb in this game works...however, I would say my understanding of it is correct, if the original Devs pulled the Absorb idea from other games.

 

Here, it's an additional layer of HP with a max separate from the character's own max and no natural regeneration.  Effects that restore Absorb do not restore "normal" HP or vice-versa.  If you had a power that granted you +3000 permanent max absorb but no current absorb, you wouldn't see any of it -- but Spirit Ward from the Sorcery pool would be positively *broken* on you.  By default, a character's max absorb pool is 0; so if you're granted +3000 current absorb but have no max absorb, you'd get no benefit.  Consequently, powers that provide absorb always provide both max and current absorb.  This allows high-HP characters to bypass their AT's normal max AT, and provides a buffer to low-HP characters that's more beneficial than a (e.g.) 10% heal.