Make Frostwork an Absorb Shield

[PaxArcana]

I, for one, am in full 110% support of the idea of making Frostworks a pure Absorb power.  :)

 

And I'm in favor of it, because it would be different.  Heals aplenty are in the game ... but Absorbs?  Not so much.

 

And if people are so convinced that Absorb is worth less than MaxHP, here's a thought:  maybe it should give more Absorb than it gives MaxHP.  Maybe, every ... say ... 2 points of MaxHP are worth 3 points of Absorb.  So, if you converted  the .... upthread, I saw +535 MaxHP cited?  That would become +800 Absorb.  Does it regenerate, no.  But it's more points than you'd've gotten, otherwise, so ... :)

[Parabola]

+1 on this.

 

My no numbers gut feel is that absorb is more useful than +maxhp in more cases than the opposite being true.

[Primantis]

If we absolutely must to cater to the people who like garbage powers, just give powersets with gimp options an extra pick. Fine 3 force fielders, you can keep detention field. Everyone else can get something useful.

 

Frostwork is objectively not a garbage power and I'm not sure what gives you that idea.

 

 

While you are correct, their point stands. Certain "Garbage Powers" have remained as such for a long time, mostly due to the cottage rule. Such powers should have been changed eons ago.

 

I wont point out any specific powers that I feel fall under that umbrella, as that's going to cause a debate. I'd just like to suggest that sometimes ignoring the Cottage Rule might be good in certain circumstances.

[Coyote]

I didn't see one point mentioned in favor of +MaxHPs: increasing the MaxHPs on a character increases their Regeneration rate by the same amount. So a +25% MaxHP increase will increase someone's regeneration rate, which may matter for a lot of characters.

 

Absorb has its purposes, but let's not pretend that MaxHPs is not a very nice buff to add onto someone.

 

Personally, I think everyone can be made happy:

Split the power's benefit 50-50 between MaxHP and Absorb, and give it a Heal component equivalent to its MaxHP boost. This way it can be used as an Absorb shield, as a MaxHPs boost (with a lower chance of being wasted due to HP caps), and as a long-timer Heal power. It doesn't deliver more overall damage protection so it's not just a free boost to the power, so we don't need to worry about balance issues, and it can be used on any target for a noticeable benefit.

[jack_nomind]

I didn't see one point mentioned in favor of +MaxHPs: increasing the MaxHPs on a character increases their Regeneration rate by the same amount. So a +25% MaxHP increase will increase someone's regeneration rate, which may matter for a lot of characters.

 

The largest HP buff a tanker can benefit from is ~89%, which Frostwork can reach for a Defender with one additional slot.  So assuming the tanker had no accolades, powers, or set bonuses that boost HP, they'd gain a +89% regen rate for two minutes from Frostwork.  This would (on our hypothetical blank tanker) work out to 834 total HP (base regen of 7.81/s * 0.89 * 120), equivalent to a 23% heal spread out over two minutes (or a ~0.2% tick heal).  For comparison, Aid Self on a tanker with one plain heal IO and no other slotting is a 27% heal every twenty seconds.

 

It's not much, is what I'm saying.  If you got a damage buff that increased your dps by a fifth of one percent, you absolutely wouldn't notice or care.

 

Split the power's benefit 50-50 between MaxHP and Absorb, and give it a Heal component equivalent to its MaxHP boost. This way it can be used as an Absorb shield, as a MaxHPs boost (with a lower chance of being wasted due to HP caps), and as a long-timer Heal power. It doesn't deliver more overall damage protection so it's not just a free boost to the power, so we don't need to worry about balance issues, and it can be used on any target for a noticeable benefit.

 

I mean I'd love that on my /cold Corr, but it absolutely is substantially more overall damage protection.  If you cast current Frostwork on, eg, a base HP L50 Blaster who's at half health (~600/1200hp), they already "heal" 200 HP (going to ~800/1600).  That Blaster still gon die, doe.  Assuming the power is reasonably slotted, your proposed version still caps out their maxhp, puts an 800pt absorb shield on them, and then also heals them to full.  In the first case, they gain 200hp of mitigation.  In the second, 1800.

 

So like I said I am all about that but giving the power an active heal component is a bit overkill for the set -- it would easily be the best single-target heal in the game.

 

(Hey you gave me a great idea for fixing Absorb Pain though)

[GritIron]

We can compromise here as well, maybe split the max hp in half and give the other half as an absorb. 

We are after all spit balling ideas here.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

We can compromise here as well, maybe split the max hp in half and give the other half as an absorb. 

We are after all spit balling ideas here.

Yeah that was suggested back on the first page, it never got much traction.

[Coyote]

I didn't see one point mentioned in favor of +MaxHPs: increasing the MaxHPs on a character increases their Regeneration rate by the same amount. So a +25% MaxHP increase will increase someone's regeneration rate, which may matter for a lot of characters.

 

The largest HP buff a tanker can benefit from is ~89%, which Frostwork can reach for a Defender with one additional slot.  So assuming the tanker had no accolades, powers, or set bonuses that boost HP, they'd gain a +89% regen rate for two minutes from Frostwork.  This would (on our hypothetical blank tanker) work out to 834 total HP (base regen of 7.81/s * 0.89 * 120), equivalent to a 23% heal spread out over two minutes (or a ~0.2% tick heal).  For comparison, Aid Self on a tanker with one plain heal IO and no other slotting is a 27% heal every twenty seconds.

 

It's not much, is what I'm saying.  If you got a damage buff that increased your dps by a fifth of one percent, you absolutely wouldn't notice or care.

 

Split the power's benefit 50-50 between MaxHP and Absorb, and give it a Heal component equivalent to its MaxHP boost. This way it can be used as an Absorb shield, as a MaxHPs boost (with a lower chance of being wasted due to HP caps), and as a long-timer Heal power. It doesn't deliver more overall damage protection so it's not just a free boost to the power, so we don't need to worry about balance issues, and it can be used on any target for a noticeable benefit.

 

I mean I'd love that on my /cold Corr, but it absolutely is substantially more overall damage protection.  If you cast current Frostwork on, eg, a base HP L50 Blaster who's at half health (~600/1200hp), they already "heal" 200 HP (going to ~800/1600).  That Blaster still gon die, doe.  Assuming the power is reasonably slotted, your proposed version still caps out their maxhp, puts an 800pt absorb shield on them, and then also heals them to full.  In the first case, they gain 200hp of mitigation.  In the second, 1800.

 

So like I said I am all about that but giving the power an active heal component is a bit overkill for the set -- it would easily be the best single-target heal in the game.

 

(Hey you gave me a great idea for fixing Absorb Pain though)

 

Jack, I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from. What is the current +HP for Frostwork? 800? Then, my suggestion would have added 400 to the max, 400 to the current, and a 400pt Absorb shield, giving that Blaster 800 pts of mitigation (a 400 pt heal and a 400 pt Absorb shield). Remember, I said split it 50-50, so you would get half the values as a Heal/MaxHP, and half as an Absorb, not the current values as a Heal/MaxHP PLUS as an Absorb.

 

Also, adding 89% to the Tanker's HPs is NOT a +89% to the Regen rate. It's their CURRENT Regen rate * 1.89... if I have a Tanker who regenerates 50 HP/sec (and I have a Stalker at 35, so I doubt this is unlikely), then this Tanker would now regenerate an additional 44 HP/sec... IIRC, this would be about an Aid Self every 10 seconds.

 

Granted, +89% to a character is unlikely given the MaxHP caps on ATs, but I don't think that expecting +50% on most targets is that unlikely, and with characters often regenerating at 20 HPs/sec or more, getting 10 HP/sec is not a minor effect. Granted, it's only an Aid Self every 20 seconds, but that's still a noticeable mitigation.

[RussHood]

Imo, as a long time cold defender, current frostwork is sub par. It has very limited usefulness, as it is single target with a decent cooldown, and works best as a preventative measure. The max HP caps limit its usefulness further at endgame with accolades and set bonuses come into play. The minimal regen bonus is mostly negligible on most AT. 

Making it absorb however allows the power to function at intended capacity from min level into incarnate territory, it allows it to be a 'save a teammate' type power, or 'beef the tank' if needed. Which would actually make me want to use it in more standard situations. 

As much as i would like the versatility to heal as a cold, healing is supposed to be the lacking element in this powerset.

 

[jack_nomind]

Jack, I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from. What is the current +HP for Frostwork? 800? Then, my suggestion would have added 400 to the max, 400 to the current, and a 400pt Absorb shield, giving that Blaster 800 pts of mitigation (a 400 pt heal and a 400 pt Absorb shield). Remember, I said split it 50-50, so you would get half the values as a Heal/MaxHP, and half as an Absorb, not the current values as a Heal/MaxHP PLUS as an Absorb.

 

Heal effects don't work on absolute numbers, but on percentages of their target.  Currently, a normally slotted Frostwork provides a +100% HP buff.  Halved but put over all three effects, that's a 50% Heal, a 50% maxHP buff, and a 50% Absorb shield.  In this case, the 50% maxhp buff is 50% of base HP (50% of 1200, capped to 1600), and the other two effects are 50% of adjusted maxhp (50% of 1600).

 

Also, adding 89% to the Tanker's HPs is NOT a +89% to the Regen rate. It's their CURRENT Regen rate * 1.89... if I have a Tanker who regenerates 50 HP/sec (and I have a Stalker at 35, so I doubt this is unlikely), then this Tanker would now regenerate an additional 44 HP/sec... IIRC, this would be about an Aid Self every 10 seconds.

 

Sort of.  I specified I was using a hypothetical 'blank' Tanker, because working out how much they actually benefit is a bit trickier.  Your Stalker's regen rate (in hp/s) already factors in whatever maxhp boosts they're getting from Dull Pain, High Pain Tolerance, etc, and it would be the same for a Tanker.  For example, it's pretty easy for a WP tanker to hit 50 hp/s with a slotted High Pain Tolerance and the +hp accolades (it only takes about 400% regen), but the actual benefit they get from Frostwork at that point is only a relative +~26%. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

If we absolutely must to cater to the people who like garbage powers, just give powersets with gimp options an extra pick. Fine 3 force fielders, you can keep detention field. Everyone else can get something useful.

 

Frostwork is objectively not a garbage power and I'm not sure what gives you that idea.

 

I was expressing my loathing of the cottage rule in general. It's a poor argument for not making a power useful. Some things basically have no place in "modern" CoH. Any set with a cage power basically has one less pick as far as I'm concerned. 

 

I took frostwork on my cold back in the day, but it does need some improvement. 

[Vanden]

If we absolutely must to cater to the people who like garbage powers, just give powersets with gimp options an extra pick. Fine 3 force fielders, you can keep detention field. Everyone else can get something useful.

 

Frostwork is objectively not a garbage power and I'm not sure what gives you that idea.

 

I was expressing my loathing of the cottage rule in general. It's a poor argument for not making a power useful. Some things basically have no place in "modern" CoH. Any set with a cage power basically has one less pick as far as I'm concerned. 

 

It's never an argument for not making a power useful, it's an argument to not making a power not itself.

[Coyote]

Jack, I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from. What is the current +HP for Frostwork? 800? Then, my suggestion would have added 400 to the max, 400 to the current, and a 400pt Absorb shield, giving that Blaster 800 pts of mitigation (a 400 pt heal and a 400 pt Absorb shield). Remember, I said split it 50-50, so you would get half the values as a Heal/MaxHP, and half as an Absorb, not the current values as a Heal/MaxHP PLUS as an Absorb.

 

Heal effects don't work on absolute numbers, but on percentages of their target.  Currently, a normally slotted Frostwork provides a +100% HP buff.  Halved but put over all three effects, that's a 50% Heal, a 50% maxHP buff, and a 50% Absorb shield.  In this case, the 50% maxhp buff is 50% of base HP (50% of 1200, capped to 1600), and the other two effects are 50% of adjusted maxhp (50% of 1600).

 

Got it. I wasn't clear in my numbers, then, since you're misunderstanding what I was saying: when I said 50-50, I did not mean a 50% HP and a 50% absorb buff with 50% being used as a flat value. I mean, 50% of their CURRENT values... I think Frostwork is just over 50% +MaxHP for a Defender, so splitting that up 50-50, would mean about a 25% +MaxHP, 25% Heal, and 25% Absorb. Not a 50% - 50% - 50%, which I agree would definitely be a great improvement and probably too much so. I think compared to a 50% MaxHP buff now, a 25% Heal / 25% MaxHP / 25% Absorb would be a bit of a buff but not unbalanced, and it would satisfy all groups. Those who want to keep it with +MaxHP, those who want to add a Heal component, and those who want to convert it to an Absorb shield.

[jack_nomind]

Currently, a normally slotted Frostwork provides a +100% HP buff.

I think Frostwork is just over 50% +MaxHP for a Defender,

 

Please read more carefully.

 

Regardless of reading comprehension -- and pardon the sharpness, but you could have easily checked these numbers yourself -- ultimately what you're saying is just that you think the value should be quartered.  While that mitigates the problem of giving it a direct heal component, I think the simpler solution is to just not add a direct heal at all.  As to the rest, I'm indifferent to a +absorb/+maxhp version vs a pure +absorb version.

[Turboski]

As a long-time and dedicated Cold Domination lady, I would love for Frostwork to be made into an absorb effect. Current Frostwork is either really nice or garbage and it's entirely based on the AT it's cast on. The only ATs that really see any significant benefit are Tankers, Brutes and EATs. Even then it can't recover health lost, despite it being on a long cooldown between uses. A refreshing absorb effect makes perfect sense though, it's the same no matter the AT cast on and it synergies with DEF buffs.

 

Alternatively, you could just make it a single cast team buff like the shields are and change nothing else about its current state. It would be certainly worth taking more if it just affected more people.

[Templarstone]

I've been playing Cold as long as one could have.  Currently my main and namesake is a fire /cold Corr .  Brutes , Tanks, Veats definitely get the most out of it , but so do Scrappers and Blasters ( with their shiny higher hp cap). Not everyone gets accolades on every character, and capping hp's isn't always easy with other priorities in IO sets. 

 

 I'd like to see frostworks be made into Dull Pain ( max hp +heal) with the over being converted to Absorb.   Until then Frostworks+Spirit Ward is absolutely amazing on everyone 

 

I'd also support it just becoming AoE giving everyone max hp and toxic resist as @Turboski said above 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Templarstone

[jaw354]

On 6/20/2019 at 6:28 PM, Solvernia said:

 

Well, since the description of Frostwork says that it makes you absorb stuff, then using Frostwork should make you absorb stuff, you know? It just makes sense. So if Time Shift says that it replaces people with future versions of themselves, then using Time Shift should turn Penelope Yin into Penelope Mayhem. It just makes sense.

Just wanna chime in and say that Penelope Mayhem is the Praetorian Penelope, follow the Mr. G story arcs, not the same Penelope you see standing in IP or Faultline.

 

Also, I'm fully in agreement that +Absorb would be more beneficial for the majority of ATs and builds, as even on ATs who have large Max HP caps, they are able to nearly reach that point on their own with the right powers and enhancement sets. (This coming from a variety player who runs between Stalkers, EATs, and the rare Tank/Brute.)

Edited January 10, 2022 by jaw354
Adding my opinion to the discussion itself.

[Solarverse]

I would rather see it work more like Dull Pain. As it stands now I skip it. It increases Max Hit Point, but that's it. If it was also a heal, it would be far more useful and I would actually pick it up and incorporate it in to my build.

[jaw354]

Its a fair idea, however, that would ultimately run into the same issue of the target being unable to get the full benefit from it. Even if you go with the heal, you can only heal them to their HP cap. That, on most ATs, near/at full build, will leave them capped and the power demanding only recharge base (using the Defender stat boost example, since, on a Stalker, the biggest benefit would be to a set without a +Max HP power - they'd cap out at their little over 2k HP).
(I used Stalker as an example, since, as far as I know, they have the largest difference between their default Max HP and their cap Max HP.)

Meanwhile, if you went with +Absorb, if you cast it on the same character, they would effectively be given an instant boost to their HP equal to the total value of the absorb. This means that on squishier ATs that can actually use the bonus, it'd have a true effect on them. Meanwhile, on the already beefy ATs, it'd be like offering them a bulletproof vest to block the first major shot (or a horde of smaller hits).

Edited January 10, 2022 by jaw354
Clarifying/fixing my statement

[Solarverse]

15 minutes ago, jaw354 said:

Its a fair idea, however, that would ultimately run into the same issue of the target being able to get the full benefit from it. Even if you go with the heal, you can only heal them to their HP cap. That, on most ATs, near/at full build, will leave them capped and the power demanding only recharge base (using the Defender stat boost example, since, on a Stalker, the biggest benefit would be to a set without a +Max HP power - they'd cap out at their little over 2k HP).
(I used Stalker as an example, since, as far as I know, they have the largest difference between their default Max HP and their cap Max HP.)

Meanwhile, if you went with +Absorb, if you cast it on the same character, they would effectively be given an instant boost to their HP equal to the total value of the absorb. This means that on squishier ATs that can actually use the bonus, it'd have a true effect on them. Meanwhile, on the already beefy ATs, it'd be like offering them a bulletproof vest to block the first major shot (or a horde of smaller hits).

 

Yeah, I can see your point there.

[jaw354]

On top of that, builds that already have Absorb built in will be able to passively recover this Absorb to its cap. It'd effectively give them a second HP bar that regenerates each time their Absorb power ticks.

[jaw354]

Just now, jaw354 said:

On top of that, builds that already have Absorb built in will be able to passively recover this Absorb to its cap. It'd effectively give them a second HP bar that regenerates each time their Absorb power ticks.

So, your usual squishy(er) AT (Blaster, Sentinel, Stalker, etc.) will be able to have a better chance at surviving, making team comps more flexible, all thanks to having an Ice support on the team. Not too mention that +Def does a lot of work to carry teams that are struggling out of the pits. Why not make it so this power can drag a suffering squishy into the limelight.

[xl8]

From a selfish standpoint, no. I like using frostwork as an alt heal for pets on my MM.

[Zeraphia]

If I had my way... I'd make it a PBAoE targetted absorb for all party members. Maybe nerf the effectiveness a bit, but I believe that would make it far more impactful and less people would fight over who receives the  buff.

[jaw354]

5 hours ago, xl8 said:

From a selfish standpoint, no. I like using frostwork as an alt heal for pets on my MM.

And even then, pets would benefit equally, if not more so, from the change.

 

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

If I had my way... I'd make it a PBAoE targetted absorb for all party members. Maybe nerf the effectiveness a bit, but I believe that would make it far more impactful and less people would fight over who receives the  buff.

The issue with making something like it a targetted AoE buff is that it would seriously tilt the balance of power held with it, even if it were nerfed values wise. There's a reason why it has a minute cooldown base (or less than 20 seconds in a fully built toon) with a two minute duration on a target.

As much as we'd love to see a power like it become a Targetted AoE, we have to imagine it in conjunction with the current buffs being supplied by that character. This is partially the reason why it stands out against FF and Sonic. Each set has a built in worth to buffs on their target(s) beyond Def/Res.
-FF with its Targetted AoE End Drain resist, PBAoE Hold, Immobilize, and Stun protection. (Ignoring the primary/common defense & toxic res buffs)
-Sonic with a single target CC prot, and PBAoE Hold, Immobilize, and Stun protection. (Ignoring the primary/common res buffs)

Meanwhile, Cold Domination has a variety of varied defense buffs (both positional and specific), with limited F/C/E/N & Slow resistances. It also has a team AoE stealth and Heat Loss, with its stacking +End and +Recovery buff. And that's before we look at Frostwork, which currently stands as the only buff of its kind across the set (or any set, at that), that provides nothing more than some Toxic resistance (immediate) and Max HP (long haul).