Make Frostwork an Absorb Shield

[Adeon Hawkwood]

So Frostwork from Cold Domination is an odd power. The idea is kind of cool, it's a Dull Pain that you cast on an ally. The problem is the implementation is kind of spotty for a few reasons. First Max HP buffs aren't that useful the combination of accolade powers and armor sets that increase Max HP means that Frostwork doesn't really take full effect since it tends to buff them above the cap (in fact for Blasters it can actually do this unenhanced). Secondly since it lacks the heal that Dull Pain powers have meaning that it's useless as a response power. Right now it's a "nice to have" you take it as a spare power but don't bother to slot it beyond the default slot.

 

So what about turning it into an absorb power? Absorb didn't exist when Cold Domination was first made but I feel like if it had that would have been a logical fit for Frostwork since it's supposed to be a temporary ice shield around a character. You'd probably need to reduce the numbers a bit since allowing Defenders to give some 1000 HP worth of absorb (535 base plus enhancements) might be a bit to much but even if you halved the size of the shield I feel like it would be a more useful power than the current version.

 

EDIT: I added my thoughts regarding the cottage rule a few posts down.

 

EDIT2: Actually the more I think about it the more I like the idea of keeping the absorb shield at the same strength as the current Max HP buff. I might feel different if it was a team buff or a shorter recharge but given it has a base recharge of 60 seconds I like the idea of it giving a huge shield.

[Vanden]

I feel like that would be a violation of the Cottage Rule.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I feel like that would be a violation of the Cottage Rule.

I probably should have addressed this in my original post. My feeling is that it skirts close to the edge of the cottage rule but doesn't fundamentally violate  the intent of the rule.

 

First Enhancements are unchanged, if you have it slotted for healing and recharge then it will still benefit from those enhancements. Secondly the mission statement of the power is still "if you use this on a character they will require more hits to kill". The main advantage of this change is that it gains a new use which is that it can be used to save an ally who is near death (which the current version of Frostwork cannot).

 

So while this is skirting close to the cottage rule I don't feel that it violates it.

 

An alternative change would be to make it more like Dull Pain and give it both Max HP and Healing but I feel like an absorb shield is more thematic.

 

 

[Vanden]

But it also changes the power from a lasting buff to a "one-and-done" kind of deal that grants its benefits for a short time and expires quickly. A character that gets hurt with +MaxHP Frostworks applied can then be healed and still benefit from that application of Frostworks, but that's not true of +Absorb Frostworks. That would then require a reexamination of its recharge time and end costs. Most likely it would need to recharge faster, and now we're dealing with the issue of "is this now a power that is expected to be applied to an entire team/league, and should get the AoE treatment?"

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Except that's not what I'm proposing. I'm proposing that it remain as a 120second duration buff. So basically it puts a large absorb shield on the character that lasts for 2 minutes if they don't take any damage.

 

Right now the recharge is 60 seconds so you can theoretically have it out on four or five people at once. Changing it to an absorb doesn't change that but adds a new dynamic since when it recharges you can decide if you want to put it on a person who doesn't have a shield or refresh the shield of someone who does. Essentially it would still function the same in that it adds additional HP to a character but differ in two key ways. First those HPs would ignore Max HP limits and secondly those HP would not be heal-able.

 

The thing with absorb is that when a power gives an absorb shield it actually does two things. First it increases the targets Max Absorb for a duration and secondly it increases their current absorb by the same amount. So this would give a 120second max-absorb buff (which wouldn't stack from the same caster) and give current absorb (which could). This would allow the Cold Dominator to give a character an absorb shield and then when the power recharges it could either be used to give a shield to a second character or refill the shield on the first character.

[Vanden]

It's 120 second duration if the target doesn't get hit. It could last for 120 seconds, or it could last for 12 seconds it the target takes a big hit.

[jack_nomind]

I feel like that would be a violation of the Cottage Rule.

 

1. New town, new cottages.

2. The original developers stated their intent was to revisit some old powers with the new Absorb mechanic, particularly powers that logically would have been Absorb powers when first implemented had that been available.  Their first target was Blaster secondaries for obvious reasons, but IIRC Force Fields and Ice sets were explicitly mentioned as likely.

3. This changes a power that accepts heal, range, recharge, and endredux enhancements into one that... also accepts heal, range, recharge, and endredux enhancements.  The functionality, use-case, etc are all virtually identical; they just fit better with the current environment.  I don't think this is a cottage situation.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

It's 120 second duration if the target doesn't get hit. It could last for 120 seconds, or it could last for 12 seconds it the target takes a big hit.

Yes, and that's the point. It's a very large single-use shield which you can use every 30 seconds (with recharge slotting). If no one is taking damage then you can put just in case shields around multiple characters, but if one person is taking damage then you can keep refreshing their shield.

 

So you can still use it the old way if you want and just put it on a rotating set of characters and it will still work basically the same (in fact better since you will get the full benefit of the power rather than bouncing off Max HP caps) but you also have the option to use it as a reactive pseudo-heal when that's needed.

[RussHood]

This seems like a good idea to me, especially since i primarily only use frostwork: A: on tanks managing big waves, or B: the squishie that keeps pulling agro and getting low. 

That is one thing about cold dom tho, after ice shields I turn my focus and end on debuffing. Would take some getting used to but is overall more practical.

[Vanden]

I feel like that would be a violation of the Cottage Rule.

 

1. New town, new cottages.

2. The original developers stated their intent was to revisit some old powers with the new Absorb mechanic, particularly powers that logically would have been Absorb powers when first implemented had that been available.  Their first target was Blaster secondaries for obvious reasons, but IIRC Force Fields and Ice sets were explicitly mentioned as likely.

3. This changes a power that accepts heal, range, recharge, and endredux enhancements into one that... also accepts heal, range, recharge, and endredux enhancements.  The functionality, use-case, etc are all virtually identical; they just fit better with the current environment.  I don't think this is a cottage situation.

Well, fair enough.

 

I still don't think the +MaxHP should be removed. Just reduce it to the point that with ~95% Heal enhancement it'll cap Blaster HP, so it doesn't go to waste.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Well, fair enough.

 

I still don't think the +MaxHP should be removed. Just reduce it to the point that with ~95% Heal enhancement it'll cap Blaster HP, so it doesn't go to waste.

Well the Defender version of Frostwork has a base value of 535 Max HP. So maybe split it so that it has a base value of +200 MaxHP and +300 Absorb (scaled down as appropriate for other ATs)?

 

I still think a pure absorb shield is more interesting but I can see your point and this would work as a decent compromise.

[Leogunner]

Well, fair enough.

 

I still don't think the +MaxHP should be removed. Just reduce it to the point that with ~95% Heal enhancement it'll cap Blaster HP, so it doesn't go to waste.

Well the Defender version of Frostwork has a base value of 535 Max HP. So maybe split it so that it has a base value of +200 MaxHP and +300 Absorb (scaled down as appropriate for other ATs)?

 

I still think a pure absorb shield is more interesting but I can see your point and this would work as a decent compromise.

 

How about making it a buff that helps it behave like HP?  Basically, it could increase your Max Absorb, add a bit of Absorb (maybe 25% of the value) and then slowly generate absorb over time up to that max.  If slotted for heal, it could increase the % value of absorb it initially grants.  Now it behaves like +Max HP, is now absorb, can be used to save someone and synergizes with other sources of absorb.

[Baney]

Well, fair enough.

 

I still don't think the +MaxHP should be removed. Just reduce it to the point that with ~95% Heal enhancement it'll cap Blaster HP, so it doesn't go to waste.

Well the Defender version of Frostwork has a base value of 535 Max HP. So maybe split it so that it has a base value of +200 MaxHP and +300 Absorb (scaled down as appropriate for other ATs)?

 

I still think a pure absorb shield is more interesting but I can see your point and this would work as a decent compromise.

 

 

I Like the idea of it giving either:

 

+Max HP + Healing (maybe over time?)

 

or

 

+Max HP + Absorbing.

 

 

I tend to put forstwork on the fire brute, Elec Armour scrapper, Regen Sentinel, or the squishy whos getting in trouble.

Sometimes I see somebody taking damage and I cast it. I know it won't heal them, but at least when they get healed it'll give them a larger cap.

[Erydanus]

This is a really fantastic idea. I had a 50 Cold Dom corrupter so I'm very familiar with Frostwork being just a bit of protective icing on my teammates. An absorb shield would be greatly helpful.

 

And really, let's read the power description shall we?

 

Covers an ally in a thick layer of Frost. The frost can absorb the impact from enemy attacks, effectively increasing your ally's maximum Hit Points for a short time. Frostwork also grants your ally resistance to Toxic Damage.

 

It literally says that it is ABSORBPTION shield; the mechanic of a hit point boost is being used to emulate that effect. (Note also that the toxic resistance buff is unenhanceable and fixed so that's a completely separate minibuff that doesn't need to be touched.) It does not need to have anything but the absorb mechanic swoop in because giving someone a 400 hp absorb shield that lasts 2 minutes or until ablated from damage is doing exactly what the power was trying to do before the correct system mechanic was available.

 

This isn't a violation of cottage rule. This is a slam dunk. This is exactly what this power was supposed to do all along.

[GritIron]

Im in the field of making it pure absorb. 

[Rylas]

This would be where the suggestion for Equivalent Powers would be incredibly useful. I can see the appeal of making it an Absorb but then all the people who liked it for how it is would be left out... in the cold.

 

At least with Equivalent Powers you could make the change and people who wanted it could respec their build for it.

[Solvernia]

Max HP buffs aren't that useful

 

Hold on a second.

 

Max HP is the single best defensive buff in the game. Consider that the person you are buffing with Frostwork is likely your tank, who more often than not has softcapped defenses and lots of resist. Not all tanks have +max HP, however, and Max HP is direct damage reduction from all sources, period. So giving someone max HP will make them a lot more survivable than giving them more def/resist that they don't need.

 

Absorb shields are worse than max HP because they don't benefit from resist buffs like max HP buffs do. They're just temporary HP without actually being HP. I would much rather have 1000 more HP than 1000 more absorb, or even 2000 more absorb. You're basically proposing to nerf Frostwork, and a set that is already uncommonly played does not need any more nerfs.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Absorb shields are worse than max HP because they don't benefit from resist buffs like max HP buffs do.

Do you have a source on this? Because I'm pretty sure that Absorb HP still benefit from resistance.

 

Also in regards to your second point, Max HP is only more useful than Absorb if you have a healer on the team, which Cold Domination isn't. So basically as it stands now Frostwork is a power that potentially makes someone else's powers slightly more useful in a limited number of stations. Changing it to an Absorb power (or slitting the buff betwene Max HOp and Absorb) would make it a useful power on it's own.

[Solvernia]

Absorb shields are worse than max HP because they don't benefit from resist buffs like max HP buffs do.

Do you have a source on this? Because I'm pretty sure that Absorb HP still benefit from resistance.

 

I don't, because there's very little documentation on Absorption -- it was a very very 'recent' addition. I'm going from what I observe on my /rad scrapper and /bio brute, which might not be 100% accurate, but it does seem to me that their absorb fades much faster than an equivalent amount of HP would.

 

Regardless, max HP buffs are still the best buffs in the game.

 

Max HP is only more useful than Absorb if you have a healer on the team, which Cold Domination isn't.

 

Why are you tanking if you can't heal yourself?

[Trickshooter]

Max HP buffs aren't that useful

 

Hold on a second.

 

Max HP is the single best defensive buff in the game. Consider that the person you are buffing with Frostwork is likely your tank, who more often than not has softcapped defenses and lots of resist. Not all tanks have +max HP, however, and Max HP is direct damage reduction from all sources, period. So giving someone max HP will make them a lot more survivable than giving them more def/resist that they don't need.

 

Absorb shields are worse than max HP because they don't benefit from resist buffs like max HP buffs do. They're just temporary HP without actually being HP. I would much rather have 1000 more HP than 1000 more absorb, or even 2000 more absorb. You're basically proposing to nerf Frostwork, and a set that is already uncommonly played does not need any more nerfs.

 

Why wouldn't Absorb shields benefit from resist buffs? Absorb should negate the final damage value, not the damage before your resistance buffs (because I think then it would also have to ignore damage buffs to the attacker).

 

Regarding adding Absorb to Frostwork, I think it would be great. Absorb and Defense from the Cold Shields would be a killer combo. A team could avoid a lot of damage dodging most attacks, and then absorbing what attacks do end up getting through.

 

However, I feel like Cold is already a powerful set, and if we're going to add Absorb to other support sets, I'd prefer to start with FF or Sonic, since their kits are more limited.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Regardless, max HP buffs are still the best buffs in the game.

Not really, Max HP isn't useless but it's a very situational buff. Functionally speaking it does two things, increase the time available to heal damage that is taken and slightly increase passive regeneration. It doesn't do anything to reduce the incoming damage just gives you more time to react to it. Additionally since Cold Domination isn't a healing set there isn't a lot you can do once someone takes damage. So basically Frostwork is a power that might give another character more time to use their healing abilities if there happens to be someone on the team with healing and healing is required. Compared to Defense or Resistance buffs that actually decrease incoming damage that's a pretty weak ability.

 

Additionally Frostwork suffers from the problem of being too good at what it does. It's not really worth enhancing because it's already putting people pretty close to the HP cap, especially if they have Max HP buffs of their own (such as accolades or Dull Pain).

 

Changing all or part of the power to Absorb means that you can use it reactively (to same someone who has taken damage) or proactively to stop someone from taking damage in the first place.

 

Max HP is only more useful than Absorb if you have a healer on the team, which Cold Domination isn't.

 

Why are you tanking if you can't heal yourself?

Super Reflexes. Shield Defense. Both are Tanker sets without heals in them. Additionally several other sets have Dull Pain equivalents which in addition to not being an on demand heal boost the Tanker's Max HP pretty close to the cap already so they aren't really going to benefit from the extra HP from Frostwork.

 

Off the top of my head the only defense set that would really benefit from the extra HP on it's own is Willpower due to the way that Max HP interacts with Regeneration.

[Rylas]

Regardless, max HP buffs are still the best buffs in the game.

Not really, Max HP isn't useless but it's a very situational buff. Functionally speaking it does two things, increase the time available to heal damage that is taken and slightly increase passive regeneration. It doesn't do anything to reduce the incoming damage just gives you more time to react to it. Additionally since Cold Domination isn't a healing set there isn't a lot you can do once someone takes damage. So basically Frostwork is a power that might give another character more time to use their healing abilities if there happens to be someone on the team with healing and healing is required. Compared to Defense or Resistance buffs that actually decrease incoming damage that's a pretty weak ability.

 

Additionally Frostwork suffers from the problem of being too good at what it does. It's not really worth enhancing because it's already putting people pretty close to the HP cap, especially if they have Max HP buffs of their own (such as accolades or Dull Pain).

 

Changing all or part of the power to Absorb means that you can use it reactively (to same someone who has taken damage) or proactively to stop someone from taking damage in the first place.

 

I believe Solvernia was speaking in terms of the effectiveness of +HP. You are correct, it doesn't reduce damage; it's not resistance. But effectively, it means the damage you take is a lower % of your health. Even the in-game descriptions of +HP powers will allude to this effect.

 

As for the back and forth going on over which is better, Absorb or +HP, I think the whole debate is highly subjective. It just depends on who you're placing the buff on. I could see it being more beneficial for blasters and controllers to receive Absorb, and more beneficial for Tankers and Brutes to receive +HP. And even that breaks down depending on their respective power sets. I see huge advantages for both. The best solution would be letting people decide one or the other; having two versions of the power that are exclusive from each other.

[Solvernia]

Max HP isn't useless but it's a very situational buff. Functionally speaking it does two things, increase the time available to heal damage that is taken and slightly increase passive regeneration. It doesn't do anything to reduce the incoming damage just gives you more time to react to it.

 

Max HP flat-out reduces the damage you take, from all sources, unconditionally. Let me give you an example.

 

Tank 1 has 2000 HP. Tank 2 is identical to tank 1, but has a +50% max HP buff, giving him 3000 HP.

 

An attack that hits Tank 2 for 1000 HP will take 50% of his total HP, whereas an attack that hits Tank 2 for 1000 HP will only take 33% of his total HP.

 

Suffice to say, Tank 2 will be able to take 50% more damage on average than Tank 1 does. And at 100% max HP, they'd be able to take twice the damage that Tank 1 does (equivalent to a 50% resist vs all.) And that's on top of what resists/def they already have, which are capped more easily than max HP is. Max HP is also never debuffed by enemies, ever, making it a more stable buff than resist.

 

What's the point of giving a tank a +res shield or a +def shield when they already have softcapped defenses and hardcapped or near-hardcapped resists? What's the point of healing a tank that can heal themselves? These are all situations that regularly happen. But no tank regularly sits at the max HP cap (though Regen, Invul and Crab SoAs come close with Dull Pain.)

 

Max HP is the best stat in the game to buff in the overwhelming majority of circumstances. in b4 goalposts

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Max HP isn't useless but it's a very situational buff. Functionally speaking it does two things, increase the time available to heal damage that is taken and slightly increase passive regeneration. It doesn't do anything to reduce the incoming damage just gives you more time to react to it.

 

Max HP flat-out reduces the damage you take, from all sources, unconditionally. Let me give you an example.

 

Tank 1 has 2000 HP. Tank 2 is identical to tank 1, but has a +50% max HP buff, giving him 3000 HP.

 

An attack that hits Tank 2 for 1000 HP will take 50% of his total HP, whereas an attack that hits Tank 2 for 1000 HP will only take 33% of his total HP.

 

Suffice to say, Tank 2 will be able to take 50% more damage on average than Tank 1 does. And at 100% max HP, they'd be able to take twice the damage that Tank 1 does (equivalent to a 50% resist vs all.) And that's on top of what resists/def they already have, which are capped more easily than max HP is.

 

Max HP is also never debuffed by enemies, ever, making it a more stable buff than resist.

 

Max HP is the best stat in the game to buff.

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

[Solvernia]

But in both cases the tank still needs to receive 1000 HP worth of healing. If you've got someone available to heal the damage then it doesn't matter whether they're healing 50% or 33%, it's still 1000 HP. If healing isn't available (or you're relying on passive regen) then I'd prefer to have more defense or resistance ot reduce the amount of damage taken in the first place.

 

Why are you tanking if you can't heal yourself?