Regen 3.0?

[Shred Monkey]

I think they just need to remove the HP caps and give regen about 2-3x more max hp... the way regen works in this game, giving more max hp effectively increases the hp/s from all regen boosting powers. Plus is gives a buffer against spike damage that regen needs.  Also adding max hp keeps regen unique in it's mechanic instead of just making them another resist or defense set.   I would also consider adding scaling resists similar to /SR.

 

 

[archgemini24]

40 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think they just need to remove the HP caps and give regen about 2-3x more max hp... the way regen works in this game, giving more max hp effectively increases the hp/s from all regen boosting powers. Plus is gives a buffer against spike damage that regen needs.  Also adding max hp keeps regen unique in it's mechanic instead of just making them another resist or defense set.   I would also consider adding scaling resists similar to /SR.

 

 

 

 

To add: could the heal from Reconstruction and Dull Pain were based around a percent of max HP (whatever it is at the time) instead of being based on the base HP of the AT?

 

So, my 2 inf for suggestions this time around:

- Recharge, Heal/Regen, and Recovery debuff resistance in a combination of Fast Healing, Quick Recovery, Resilience, and Integration. Maybe Reconstruction, too?

- Base recharge for Reconstruction reduced to 40 seconds (matches Healing Flames).

- Instant Healing has a minor-to-moderate instant heal before the standard regen portion. Also, shameless plug for a 90-second duration/300-second duration even if there is a 15-30 second Recovery crash afterwards.

- All the heal portions from powers with a Heal (Reconstruction, Dull Pain, and now Instant Healing) heal for a percentage of current Max HP instead of baseline Max HP. This way, a 50% heal is always 50%, even if the character has Dull Pain and +HP buffs running.

- Revive gets X seconds of +recharge, +regen, and +recovery if used while alive (like an Overclock), and Y seconds of the same buff if used while defeated after the untouchable period. The +Recharge would be time to get the other clicks back online if they were used before being defeated, and acts as an offensive buff (outside of the Recovery from QR) that the set lacks.

- 5 more seconds on Moment of Glory.

 

I freely acknowledge that if all this were to be implemented that Regen might be one of the hardier sets if played well (certainly back into parity) and, honestly, that's kind of the point. In my opinion, the sets that require more attention, aren't available all the time because of cooldowns, and reduce DPS to use should be more rewarding from a survival standpoint if played well.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I've been spending a fair amount of time on Regeneration lately, with a lvl 50 Staff/Regen brute that was one of my first characters on HC, a lvl 50 broadsword/regen brute that I took through Praetoria before going red, and a few more scrappers that are in the 10-30 range.  I'm not a be-all-end-all expert, but it's safe to say I know my way around the set a bit.

 

First, I'm absolutely fine with it staying exactly as it is; in fact I might prefer it that way.  That is partly a pride issue because it is (arguably?) the "most difficult" armor to excel with.  But it is also because I really enjoy having to actively manage my armor set as well as my offense set.  It's one of the reasons I really like Bio armor as well.

 

Second, I do not adhere to the belief that "every set needs to be balanced around SOs."  That just seems foolish to me, since the only people who use SOs only are doing it as a challenge.  I just refuse to believe that there are people new to the game who are so dim they have only managed to figure out what SOs are but IOs are this big unknowable mystery.  That said, I know that some people will come after me with pitchforks if I suggest improvements that will only benefit IO users, so my thoughts below should apply to the SO crowd as well as the IO crowd.

 

My thoughts on improvements to the set:

 

-- Level 16 is pretty late for a melee set to get their mez protection.  I could see moving it to 10, moving Dull Pain to 4, and moving Quick Recovery to 16.

-- Adding a small, but enhanceable, amount of either damage resistance or defense to Fast Healing, Reconstruction, Integration, and/or Instant Healing would 1. add some layers of survivability and 2. allow for IO set slotting that could add some diversity to builds.

-- Adding a small, but enhanceable, amount of PBAoE damage to Integration would also cover points 1 and 2 from the previous point.  This might be more difficult to justify concept-wise, but I think something like a small amount of psionic damage would work.  Then you could slot a whole new range of IOs.

-- Some level of debuff resistance would be nice, but I can certainly live without it.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Yomo Kimyata
I like editing

[aethereal]

Revive only works while dead, but it gives a +10% to hit/+40% damage bonus for 30 seconds and takes away all debt, recharge enhanceable to about 1 min reasonably (so let's say 3 minutes base recharge).

 

Discuss.

[Murcielago]

20 hours ago, aethereal said:

Revive only works while dead, but it gives a +10% to hit/+40% damage bonus for 30 seconds and takes away all debt, recharge enhanceable to about 1 min reasonably (so let's say 3 minutes base recharge).

 

Discuss.

Even then, revive seems counter to what Scrappers need.

[BrandX]

Seems they could give Revive the Second Wind treatment.  Which looks to be able to be used while still alive.  No need to rename it.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:43 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

-- Some level of debuff resistance would be nice, but I can certainly live without it.

 

 

I've changed my mind on this one.  I've been fighting +2/x3 Council on my lvl 22 rad/regen scrapper and she's getting debuffed into oblivion.  -50% defense and -150% recharge kind of numbers.  By Council.  These are the guys who get beat up and get their lunch money stolen by Hellions.  It's just embarrassing that I have to run away from COUNCIL.  Bring on the debuff resistance!

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Yomo Kimyata
you know, I still like editing

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Even then, revive seems counter to what Scrappers need.

It'd result in a different playstyle, to be sure.  But getting a 50% uptime half-build-up in your armor set seems like it might be worth intentionally dying once a minute.

[Koopak]

On 6/26/2021 at 10:02 PM, aethereal said:

Revive only works while dead, but it gives a +10% to hit/+40% damage bonus for 30 seconds and takes away all debt, recharge enhanceable to about 1 min reasonably (so let's say 3 minutes base recharge).

 

Discuss.

Doesn't solve the core problem with most self rezes, but does bring it somewhat in line with damaging rezes. That being that they are only useful after a "loss condition" which while i generally hold that "death is not a loss condition if you get right back up" there are game mechanics that aggressively disagree with that, uncommon as they are, so players are justified in holding that view.

 

 

On 6/27/2021 at 6:44 PM, BrandX said:

Seems they could give Revive the Second Wind treatment.  Which looks to be able to be used while still alive.  No need to rename it.

 

 

I really consider Second Wind pretty crap, its only value is derived from the fact that Dismiss Pain is a poor replacement for Dull Pain. If applied to Scrapper, Brute, Stalker the existing Second Wind mechanics would be useless as all of those can perma Dull Pain with minimal slot investment while getting it strong enough to hit HP caps. It would need to be converted into Absorb or some other shenanigans which isn't my first pick.

(Edit: I recognize second win is a decent heal but having another click heal isn't a significant thing to me, let alone one with a base recharge of 250)

I think @aetherealis at least on the right track, in that if we make Revive have a damage or +damage component you can use while alive then we solve two problems with one change. Namely you make Revive a valuable power pick even if you never die, and you give Regen something to compensate for dps loss from click powers. Additionally if done right it gives a nice risk/reward pairing where you have to risk not having your revive to get the damage bonus, and I'm ALWAYS a fan of risk/reward systems.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Koopak

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Koopak said:

Doesn't solve the core problem with most self rezes, but does bring it somewhat in line with damaging rezes. That being that they are only useful after a "loss condition" which while i generally hold that "death is not a loss condition if you get right back up" there are game mechanics that aggressively disagree with that, uncommon as they are, so players are justified in holding that view.

 

 

I really consider Second Wind pretty crap, its only value is derived from the fact that Dismiss Pain is a poor replacement for Dull Pain. If applied to Scrapper, Brute, Stalker the existing Second Wind mechanics would be useless as all of those can perma Dull Pain with minimal slot investment while getting it strong enough to hit HP caps. It would need to be converted into Absorb or some other shenanigans which isn't my first pick.

(Edit: I recognize second win is a decent heal but having another click heal isn't a significant thing to me, let alone one with a base recharge of 250)

I think @aetherealis at least on the right track, in that if we make Revive have a damage or +damage component you can use while alive then we solve two problems with one change. Namely you make Revive a valuable power pick even if you never die, and you give Regen something to compensate for dps loss from click powers. Additionally if done right it gives a nice risk/reward pairing where you have to risk not having your revive to get the damage bonus, and I'm ALWAYS a fan of risk/reward systems.

 

That gives me a thought for Revive based on another idea I had earlier.

 

Give Revive a passive ability to go a long with it, but change that passive ability for every AT with Regen.

 

So, right now it would be different for Stalkers, Brutes and Scrappers, as Tankers don't have Regen.

 

They could just make it all +Resists or even +Dmg across the board or +DMG for Scrappers/Stalkers and +Resists for Brutes (and Tanks if they ever get it) or additional +Regen or whatever!  

[Naraka]

14 hours ago, Koopak said:

Doesn't solve the core problem with most self rezes, but does bring it somewhat in line with damaging rezes. That being that they are only useful after a "loss condition" which while i generally hold that "death is not a loss condition if you get right back up" there are game mechanics that aggressively disagree with that, uncommon as they are, so players are justified in holding that view.

 

 

I really consider Second Wind pretty crap, its only value is derived from the fact that Dismiss Pain is a poor replacement for Dull Pain. If applied to Scrapper, Brute, Stalker the existing Second Wind mechanics would be useless as all of those can perma Dull Pain with minimal slot investment while getting it strong enough to hit HP caps. It would need to be converted into Absorb or some other shenanigans which isn't my first pick.

(Edit: I recognize second win is a decent heal but having another click heal isn't a significant thing to me, let alone one with a base recharge of 250)

I think @aetherealis at least on the right track, in that if we make Revive have a damage or +damage component you can use while alive then we solve two problems with one change. Namely you make Revive a valuable power pick even if you never die, and you give Regen something to compensate for dps loss from click powers. Additionally if done right it gives a nice risk/reward pairing where you have to risk not having your revive to get the damage bonus, and I'm ALWAYS a fan of risk/reward systems.

 

Along with giving the powers stacking +debuff resistance (each click Regen power could give a small amount to each debuff or a moderate amount to unique debuffs), Revive could have the ability to instantly recharge your Regen clicks. If used while alive, it could have double the cooldown. It also has the benefit of helping you stack more debuff resistance by reviving your clicks to use again.

 

I think people underestimate revive though. If you're like me and only use P2W powers sparingly, having revive means you don't need awakens +breakfree which, still, are inferior to just revive. I can keep more offense or defense inspirations instead.

[Koopak]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Along with giving the powers stacking +debuff resistance (each click Regen power could give a small amount to each debuff or a moderate amount to unique debuffs), Revive could have the ability to instantly recharge your Regen clicks. If used while alive, it could have double the cooldown. It also has the benefit of helping you stack more debuff resistance by reviving your clicks to use again.

 

I think people underestimate revive though. If you're like me and only use P2W powers sparingly, having revive means you don't need awakens +breakfree which, still, are inferior to just revive. I can keep more offense or defense inspirations instead.

I actually like the idea of Revive working like a burnout for regen abilities. People DO undervalue Revive, hell I sometimes just think of it as a 15 second immunity power due to the untouchable after rezing, but so long as there are badges tied to not dieing it'll be a hard sale.

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Koopak said:

I actually like the idea of Revive working like a burnout for regen abilities. People DO undervalue Revive, hell I sometimes just think of it as a 15 second immunity power due to the untouchable after rezing, but so long as there are badges tied to not dieing it'll be a hard sale.

 

Damage buffs in armor sets are at a huge premium.  Why is Bio so popular?  It's not because its mitigation is top-notch, it's because it gives you a damage bonus.  Why is Fiery Aura the top-notch set for farming?  Burn.  Shield is a mediocre defense set except that it has Against All Odds and Shield Charge.  If we used Revive to get a damage bonus into Regen, I guarantee that people would work a lot harder to deal with Regen's issues in mitigation.

[Koopak]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Damage buffs in armor sets are at a huge premium.  Why is Bio so popular?  It's not because its mitigation is top-notch, it's because it gives you a damage bonus.  Why is Fiery Aura the top-notch set for farming?  Burn.  Shield is a mediocre defense set except that it has Against All Odds and Shield Charge.  If we used Revive to get a damage bonus into Regen, I guarantee that people would work a lot harder to deal with Regen's issues in mitigation.

Oh most certainly. If i had to pick changes now it would be
 

• Slap a smallish recharge bonus on Quick Recovery to help improve its value (its very skippable with a good build currently). 20% should be good but could be less, could be more, just enough to compensate having to use click powers. Said powers can have their recharges adjusted to make it so this doesn't effectively influence them if needed.
• Slap some debuff resistances into one or more powers, big one would be resistance to -recharge, again could go in Quick Recovery
• Make Revive usable while alive to instantly recharge Regen powers, adjust recharge as needed.
• Maybe consider moving the activation times on powers to be more immediate. Dying from a random hit before Reconstruction or Moment of Glory can activate blows.

 

That should solve 90% of the problems with the set without changing its identity or significantly messing with its raw durability. If the set is still under performing after that id look into improving resistance. Right now Defense is to core to the sets durability due to how easy it is to obtain from sets and outside powers, which makes -def problematic. Enough resistance could solve this, and people seem to forget that resistance is equivalent to higher max hp or absorb ultimately, they are just different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Koopak

[FallenMystic]

Very interesting read, just a few ideas. 

 

1.) Revive could have a cooldown reset for Instant Healing and MoG. Would probably need a longer recharge with no effect from recharge enhs

  -the risk/reward, lose/use your Revive to have IH and MoG back

 

2.) Give Revive a Pbaoe +regen click on use, with a higher % on caster

  -Regens are kinda solo artists lol this may help?

 

* And I agree completely about any and all resist to debuffs. Just not sure how to implement 

 

My Elec/Regen Brute is at 65% S/L res and 39% Melee Def, handles +4/8 content depending on mobs. (Arachnos is ouch)

He survives quite well and i rarely use Instant Healing(Outside of ITrials), And MoG is almost never used too. Was used for taking Alpha strike initially 

 

Also Regen was my first love on live haha Dark Melee/Regen was a great combo. Never ran Tough or Weave on that guy though, might have to remake him!

 

Hopefully ive added something to the discussion! 

  

[Crysis]

On 6/18/2021 at 8:44 PM, BrandX said:

 

The original MoG lasted more than 15 seconds and was called Moment of Glory 😛

The OG MOG could be made perma and thus it was just “Glorious.”

 

Which was one of many reasons we got our toys taken away with the set.

[StrikerFox]

When they changed the original MoG, they should have renamed it to "15 Seconds of Fame."

[BrandX]

17 hours ago, Crysis said:

The OG MOG could be made perma and thus it was just “Glorious.”

 

Which was one of many reasons we got our toys taken away with the set.

 

All the t9's could be made perma back then.  

[TCRSavage]

I played almost exclusively /Regen scrappers in CoH - since coming to HC I have avoided it like the plague.  I think the main problem is after the regen changes from i5 on, Regen has essentially just been ported over into every other set.  As a rad/rad scrapper here in homecoming, I can get upwards of 400% regen.  (And people used to complain about regen!)  

 

The set should be reworked conceptually.  I never understood why the super power that was inherent was the clickiest of the clickies.  Does Wolverine have to think about and activate stuff?  Of course not - regen is the most inherent of the armors and should probably not "feel" like an active defense.  Another issue is damage resistance/defense.  Since regen has essentially been added into all the other defensive sets, how can regen (on its own) succeed thematically and statistically without adding mechanics to allow them to shine?

 

A recommendation might be to work with the +absorb idea.  Increasing the regen player's max HP and granting absorb over time (perhaps it increases per level, perhaps with slotting). I also think MoG should be a key ingredient, though not in its current state.  I think everyone thinking the regen hero is dead, only to be wrong (again) is hand in hand with the comic book inspiriations.  I really do think it has to be re-envisioned because you can't take regen and healing away from the sets that now have it, and without their def/res regen doesn't have a leg to stand on mechanically in the current state of the game.  

 

Thanks for looking at the set!  Love the game, love the player base.  🙂  

 

 

[Crysis]

7 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

All the t9's could be made perma back then.  

 

True, I ran both Perma-Elude and Perma-MOG builds back then frequently.  Nothing like one power eliminating the rest of your secondary entirely.

[Koopak]

6 hours ago, TCRSavage said:

I played almost exclusively /Regen scrappers in CoH - since coming to HC I have avoided it like the plague.  I think the main problem is after the regen changes from i5 on, Regen has essentially just been ported over into every other set.  As a rad/rad scrapper here in homecoming, I can get upwards of 400% regen.  (And people used to complain about regen!)  

 

The set should be reworked conceptually.  I never understood why the super power that was inherent was the clickiest of the clickies.  Does Wolverine have to think about and activate stuff?  Of course not - regen is the most inherent of the armors and should probably not "feel" like an active defense.  Another issue is damage resistance/defense.  Since regen has essentially been added into all the other defensive sets, how can regen (on its own) succeed thematically and statistically without adding mechanics to allow them to shine?

 

A recommendation might be to work with the +absorb idea.  Increasing the regen player's max HP and granting absorb over time (perhaps it increases per level, perhaps with slotting). I also think MoG should be a key ingredient, though not in its current state.  I think everyone thinking the regen hero is dead, only to be wrong (again) is hand in hand with the comic book inspiriations.  I really do think it has to be re-envisioned because you can't take regen and healing away from the sets that now have it, and without their def/res regen doesn't have a leg to stand on mechanically in the current state of the game.  

 

Thanks for looking at the set!  Love the game, love the player base.  🙂  

 

 

At risk of repeating myself, i very much don't feel regen suffers in raw performance when discussing incoming damage survived assuming you use your active powers well. I believe its the vulnerability to debuffs and lack of compensation for time spent using actives that holds the set back. Other sets getting 2/3s of the passive regen of Regen isn't that big a deal because the resulting hp/s is much higher on Regen when you finish factoring everything.

Conceptually i get your opinion about wanting a more passive set, but no, god no, please no, not now, not ever. Regen is unique in how active it is, Bio is the only thing even close, and while sure Wolvy isn't exactly focusing to regenerate, he is pushing through pain and such and clicking powers just in time to survive feels much more like a visceral "fuck you" to the mobs. You are actively pushing through and putting effort into your survival in a way other sets physically cant, and that feels GREAT

Absorb is constantly suggested and i still hate it, dont get me wrong it does help with the alpha issue, but resistance would do that too and as it is Regen's resistances are VERY low, so buffing them isnt going to step on any resist sets toes.

[BrandX]

14 hours ago, TCRSavage said:

I played almost exclusively /Regen scrappers in CoH - since coming to HC I have avoided it like the plague.  I think the main problem is after the regen changes from i5 on, Regen has essentially just been ported over into every other set.  As a rad/rad scrapper here in homecoming, I can get upwards of 400% regen.  (And people used to complain about regen!)  

 

The set should be reworked conceptually.  I never understood why the super power that was inherent was the clickiest of the clickies.  Does Wolverine have to think about and activate stuff?  Of course not - regen is the most inherent of the armors and should probably not "feel" like an active defense.  Another issue is damage resistance/defense.  Since regen has essentially been added into all the other defensive sets, how can regen (on its own) succeed thematically and statistically without adding mechanics to allow them to shine?

 

A recommendation might be to work with the +absorb idea.  Increasing the regen player's max HP and granting absorb over time (perhaps it increases per level, perhaps with slotting). I also think MoG should be a key ingredient, though not in its current state.  I think everyone thinking the regen hero is dead, only to be wrong (again) is hand in hand with the comic book inspiriations.  I really do think it has to be re-envisioned because you can't take regen and healing away from the sets that now have it, and without their def/res regen doesn't have a leg to stand on mechanically in the current state of the game.  

 

Thanks for looking at the set!  Love the game, love the player base.  🙂  

 

 

 

I see the clickies more as a meta aspect of the game and less of the idea that my hero is stopping to activate some defense.  😛

 

I get what you're saying and as mentioned, there is Willpower for that.

 

We all like to look at the name of the set and go, "Yeah that." but really, Willpower (and most sets) can fit the Regen concept, you just might have to deal with some FX you'd rather not have to deal with.

 

Invulnerability can be Regeneration in character concept, instead of straight bullet proof bullets bouncing.  The only difference being the Revive power, which many seem to skip anyways.

[Murcielago]

On 7/13/2021 at 6:21 AM, BrandX said:

 

All the t9's could be made perma back then.  

It was glorious

[Murcielago]

21 hours ago, BrandX said:

which many seem to skip anyways.

Because revive powers go against what scrappers need. If your secondary has a revive, it means its a crappy secondary. Ironic because I have a /dark brute and a /regen stalker. 

[JJDrakken]

Literally port over Sentinel's Regen Set to Melees. I feel that would solve a helluva a lot of issues for Currently abused Regen Melee set.