Any Reason why Sorcery, Experimentation and Force of Will are locked out from each other

[plainguy]

Title pretty much says it all

 

Wondering why Sorcery, Experimentation and Force of Will are locked out from each other ?

Why can't I have both ?

 

To keep this to suggestion format

 

I suggest you let players have the option to pick whatever they want from the pools

[GraspingVileTerror]

Two factors (though I'm not saying I agree with them, just what I understand from the original design discussions I saw):

Theme.

They were pay-to-win Pools, and meant to be more powerful than regular Pools, and the decision was that players should only have access to ONE of five, rather than stacking up on the most broken Sets.

 

However, Homecoming has toned them down from their original vision and balanced them at a level that is perhaps only slightly higher than regular Pools.

I don't have access to their metrics, but I'd be surprised if the balancing factor still holds as much water as the original plans called for.

And as for theme . . . I take a hard stance on giving players as much control over that as possible.

 

So.

Yeah.

I like the idea of removing the single-Set restriction from Theme Pools.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

Title pretty much says it all

 

Wondering why Sorcery, Experimentation and Force of Will are locked out from each other ?

Why can't I have both ?

 

To keep this to suggestion format

 

I suggest you let players have the option to pick whatever they want from the pools

Because those are thematic origin related pools and you can only have one such origin theme thing. Be grateful you can even have a choice at all and aren’t locked in to the one actually corresponding to your origin.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Because those are thematic origin related pools and you can only have one such origin theme thing. Be grateful you can even have a choice at all and aren’t locked in to the one actually corresponding to your origin.

 

 

Yep, considering that was the original idea for them IIRC.

[Naraka]

I'm going to add the possibility that it also has to do with the way the origin pools are built to have aspects of support and they want to limit availability of force multiplying pool powers.

 

 

[plainguy]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

Because those are thematic origin related pools and you can only have one such origin theme thing. Be grateful you can even have a choice at all and aren’t locked in to the one actually corresponding to your origin.

Why ? 

 

[Biff Pow]

Why are we only allowed to choose one Primary and Secondary set?

 

It's impossible to balance a free-for-all, some divisions are necessary.

[plainguy]

25 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

Why are we only allowed to choose one Primary and Secondary set?

 

It's impossible to balance a free-for-all, some divisions are necessary.

Again I state why.. 
if your picking up MORE attacks for example.. Then you have less of something else.. EG a defense pool like fighting, leadership..  

Is there any evidence that the attacks from Sorcery, Experimentation or Force of Will are greater than the attacks of a Primary or Secondary ?  I am sure in this world of min and max this type of info would have already been revealed and we would see a copious amounts of farming builds based around it. 

These are in Power Pools.. Not Ancillary and Epics.. Not in some category of their own.. 
It is the same if you pick up every travel power you will gimp yourself in other areas of the game.. 

So again I say why..
I have never seen someone paste together some theory that adding these pools together will over balance a character either based on what is required, meaning you need 2 powers to get another further down the line..

If someone has by all means I would love to see it. 

[Glacier Peak]

38 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Again I state why.. 
if your picking up MORE attacks for example.. Then you have less of something else.. EG a defense pool like fighting, leadership..  

Is there any evidence that the attacks from Sorcery, Experimentation or Force of Will are greater than the attacks of a Primary or Secondary ?  I am sure in this world of min and max this type of info would have already been revealed and we would see a copious amounts of farming builds based around it. 

These are in Power Pools.. Not Ancillary and Epics.. Not in some category of their own.. 
It is the same if you pick up every travel power you will gimp yourself in other areas of the game.. 

So again I say why..
I have never seen someone paste together some theory that adding these pools together will over balance a character either based on what is required, meaning you need 2 powers to get another further down the line..

If someone has by all means I would love to see it. 

Balance is why. And balance. And balance again. Balance once more for good measure. 

[SwitchFade]

Lord Nemesis decreed it.

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Balance is why. And balance. And balance again. Balance once more for good measure. 

Prove it..

 

You can scream balance all you want but you have no proof..  Show me one thread from the Devs about this.. 
You can't..

 

 

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Lord Nemesis decreed it.

This I accept more than the balance statement.. 

[Glacier Peak]

9 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Prove it..

 

You can scream balance all you want but you have no proof..  Show me one thread from the Devs about this.. 
You can't..

If it doesn't exist, why are you asking me to prove it?

[plainguy]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

If it doesn't exist, why are you asking me to prove it?

What ?

 

You said balance.. I never heard of it.. I never read it..

 

You are the one that saying balance.. 

We are not talking about Jesus or God here.. 

Support your statement with evidence.. ANY evidence..  Just don't blindly make a comment without any Proof and just expect people to back off.  
I mean how do you know the issue is balance... Because someone above said it, so you are echoing /parroting it ? 

I believe I am an intelligent man... I never seen it.. I looked around for it.. I didn't find it in the search. Again I could have failed looking.. 

But I have issue with people spewing something with no proof..  

 

I gave some evidence in my direction.  At a minimum if you want to respond give some evidence in yours..  

I mean it's great to be a lemming and just say buzz words.. To someone else.. But I am gonna challenge you on it.. 

 

[plainguy]

But I know.. The response will be I don't have to prove anything.. I don't have to respond to you with proof... ETC.. 

 

Because no one really has any proof..

[Glacier Peak]

15 minutes ago, plainguy said:

What ?

 

You said balance.. I never heard of it.. I never read it..

 

You are the one that saying balance.. 

We are not talking about Jesus or God here.. 

Support your statement with evidence.. ANY evidence..  Just don't blindly make a comment without any Proof and just expect people to back off.  
I mean how do you know the issue is balance... Because someone above said it, so you are echoing /parroting it ? 

I believe I am an intelligent man... I never seen it.. I looked around for it.. I didn't find it in the search. Again I could have failed looking.. 

But I have issue with people spewing something with no proof..  

 

I gave some evidence in my direction.  At a minimum if you want to respond give some evidence in yours..  

I mean it's great to be a lemming and just say buzz words.. To someone else.. But I am gonna challenge you on it.. 

You're clearly not interested in any response I give, as you've now twice preempted my posts with your own reply to what you think I'll say. 

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

You're clearly not interested in any response I give, as you've now twice preempted my posts with your own reply to what you think I'll say. 

You said balance but bring no proof of it.

 

I expressed clearly if you take sorcery and force of will for example you are giving up 2 other power pools with more than likely come with defensive bonuses.. 

Further I expressed having played these power power pools I don't see them being greater than other powers DPS wise in your primary or secondary or even Ancillary/Epic..

But your response is just as I expressed.. No evidence to back what your saying and you only dismiss my response as if I was a neophyte in your presences not worth any proof.. 
Sorry Mr. Empirical if  I just don't take your word for it.  

Again I ask you for ANY OUNCE of evidence to prove your statement and you or anyone else saying the same thing and no one has proven it. 

Listen don't derail the thread.. 

Come here with evidence or don't waste your time posting..  

It is common sense that there is only so many attacks you can have in a chain..  I mean its not rocket science..  Each one of these Power Pools only has one AOE and you need 2 other powers to pick it up. 
I can create an AR Traps defender with more AOE.. I can create a DP Device with more AOE..  Or Single target for that matter.. Without the need of picking up 2 powers as a requirement..

 

Again IF anyone of these were so KEY in a build. you would see this in every farming build.. 

You would see it being mentioned on other builds.. But you don't..

 

You say balance but again you bring nothing here to support your evidence..  I mean How obtuse can you be here.. You are literally pissing on my leg and telling me its raining and you want me to accept it..

What you should do is put me in my place.. and show me the evidence of this BALANCE and make me eat crow.. 
I'm okay.. I will apologize and put myself down how wrong I was if you prove me wrong..

 

But you won't.. 
You will just drop off because you have no evidence. I know I am not worth your time responding to.. Common forum response when someone has no evidence to back what they are saying.. 

[golstat2003]

43 minutes ago, plainguy said:

You said balance but bring no proof of it.

 

I expressed clearly if you take sorcery and force of will for example you are giving up 2 other power pools with more than likely come with defensive bonuses.. 

Further I expressed having played these power power pools I don't see them being greater than other powers DPS wise in your primary or secondary or even Ancillary/Epic..

But your response is just as I expressed.. No evidence to back what your saying and you only dismiss my response as if I was a neophyte in your presences not worth any proof.. 
Sorry Mr. Empirical if  I just don't take your word for it.  

Again I ask you for ANY OUNCE of evidence to prove your statement and you or anyone else saying the same thing and no one has proven it. 

Listen don't derail the thread.. 

Come here with evidence or don't waste your time posting..  

It is common sense that there is only so many attacks you can have in a chain..  I mean its not rocket science..  Each one of these Power Pools only has one AOE and you need 2 other powers to pick it up. 
I can create an AR Traps defender with more AOE.. I can create a DP Device with more AOE..  Or Single target for that matter.. Without the need of picking up 2 powers as a requirement..

 

Again IF anyone of these were so KEY in a build. you would see this in every farming build.. 

You would see it being mentioned on other builds.. But you don't..

 

You say balance but again you bring nothing here to support your evidence..  I mean How obtuse can you be here.. You are literally pissing on my leg and telling me its raining and you want me to accept it..

What you should do is put me in my place.. and show me the evidence of this BALANCE and make me eat crow.. 
I'm okay.. I will apologize and put myself down how wrong I was if you prove me wrong..

 

But you won't.. 
You will just drop off because you have no evidence. I know I am not worth your time responding to.. Common forum response when someone has no evidence to back what they are saying.. 

 

Errr If you want to change it you have to show why it show to the devs why it should be changed. Like it or not they are sticking to the original plan of them being origin pools. And based on responses on this thread I think many players agree with that thematic idea. The burden of proof here is to on you if you're suggesting it be changed. Which I thought you were?

[plainguy]

19 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Errr If you want to change it you have to show why it show to the devs why it should be changed. Like it or not they are sticking to the original plan of them being origin pools. And based on responses on this thread I think many players agree with that thematic idea. The burden of proof here is to on you if you're suggesting it be changed. Which I thought you were?

There is no burden of proof.. This isn't court..

 

This is a suggestion forum.. I brought up a suggestion.. 

Some people mentioned balance without any lick of evidence to back up their statement.

If you are going to speak on behalf of the Developers you best have some evidence or show me in some thread that you are the mouth piece for the Devs. As per the wizard of OZ.

Don't look behind the curtain.. Which is pretty much what is happening here.. 
OH wait 3 people said Balance but produce no evidence of it ..  It must be true because 2 people parroted what someone else said..  
Again you gonna jump off a bridge because everyone else is ?   

I further reviewed the forums best I could with the search engine and discovered nothing related to any statements regarding balance.. 
So I did my homework per say.. Against myself even.. I didn't have to.. 

Nonetheless, if you are going to bring up a statement suggesting an answer why it is not done. Then it is YOU that need to produce the evidence.. NOT ME.. 
If we are going to go the route of court testimony it is innocent until proven guilty.. Prove that I am guilty.. Otherwise again don't respond.. Testifying in court over 1000 times I know at least that.. 

But I don't need to show the devs.. Sometimes stuff is just common sense.. Sometimes amazingly enough no one really thought about it..  
Are you a DEV ? How do you know the Devs are not going holy shit we really never thought about this.. 

Further thematic responses.. Really.. Robot Traps with shooting a fireball ?  DP device with a fire shield..  or puking up bile.. 
Thematic ??? 
Soul mastery for a gadget player ?  

 

It is amazing how people just say stuff for just saying and don't expect anyone with a lick of commonsense to response back.. 
Oh okay..  You got me.. We can't have sorcery and experimentation together because of balance and / or thematic reasons.. 

No proof or evidence to support it.. 

 

I mean really..  

 

[plainguy]

I reiterate

 

Title pretty much says it all

 

Wondering why Sorcery, Experimentation and Force of Will are locked out from each other ?

Why can't I have both ?

 

To keep this to suggestion format

 

I suggest you let players have the option to pick whatever they want from the pools..

There is no evidence or Proof given that having these 3 pools will overpower a player..

There is no reason to force someone beliefs of Thematic reasons why power pools cannot be pick. Again there is NO EVIDENCE either that the Developers said this.. 
Further many of the power pools Break thematic builds long before these 3 power pools were created.. Why the sudden enforcement of thematic builds..  
Are we going to enforce costume creation as well for THEMATIC reasons.. Are you telling me I cannot create a knight costume with my AR Device Blaster ?

Nonetheless. I will once again Reiterate..
There is no reason why this shouldn't be allowed unless the Developers chime up and say the coding ATM prevents them from doing so based on how they were created.. 

 

 

But beyond this please do not give out false information when you have no proof to back it up.. It isn't fair to the players.. No reason to pretend to be smart or know something when you don't. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by plainguy

[America's Angel]

You have two options when it comes to picking an origin pool:

• Mitigation (Rune of Protection, Unleashed Potential) 
• Offense (Adrenal Booster).

The sets are balanced in such a way that the HPS boost provided by the Mitigation options and the DPS boost provided by the Offense option add to your character's efficacy score (DPS:HPS) equally. Because of this, not only are they balanced in PvE, but they also work as counters to each other in PvP. (I.e. If someone brings Adrenal Booster, you can counter it with Rune of Protection). 

 

Here's the numbers if you're curious:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.force_of_will.unleash_potential
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.sorcery.rune_of_protection
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.experimentation.adrenal_booster

 

If players could select multiple origin pools, then the relative balance of these T5s would be upset.

 

There are also some other minor concerns with allowing players to take multiple origin pools. The main one being being able to take both Adrenal Booster and Weaken Resolve (with the achilles proc slotted) in one build.

 

If the origin pools were changed to allow players to select multiple ones in a single build, then the above balance concerns would need to be addressed.

 

[Haijinx]

13 hours ago, Supertanker said:

Why are we only allowed to choose one Primary and Secondary set?

 

It's impossible to balance a free-for-all, some divisions are necessary.

Yeah.  Maybe some people want both their sets to be primaries!

[Glacier Peak]

9 hours ago, plainguy said:

You said balance but bring no proof of it.

 

I expressed clearly if you take sorcery and force of will for example you are giving up 2 other power pools with more than likely come with defensive bonuses.. 

Further I expressed having played these power power pools I don't see them being greater than other powers DPS wise in your primary or secondary or even Ancillary/Epic..

But your response is just as I expressed.. No evidence to back what your saying and you only dismiss my response as if I was a neophyte in your presences not worth any proof.. 
Sorry Mr. Empirical if  I just don't take your word for it.  

Again I ask you for ANY OUNCE of evidence to prove your statement and you or anyone else saying the same thing and no one has proven it. 

Listen don't derail the thread.. 

Come here with evidence or don't waste your time posting..  

It is common sense that there is only so many attacks you can have in a chain..  I mean its not rocket science..  Each one of these Power Pools only has one AOE and you need 2 other powers to pick it up. 
I can create an AR Traps defender with more AOE.. I can create a DP Device with more AOE..  Or Single target for that matter.. Without the need of picking up 2 powers as a requirement..

 

Again IF anyone of these were so KEY in a build. you would see this in every farming build.. 

You would see it being mentioned on other builds.. But you don't..

 

You say balance but again you bring nothing here to support your evidence..  I mean How obtuse can you be here.. You are literally pissing on my leg and telling me its raining and you want me to accept it..

What you should do is put me in my place.. and show me the evidence of this BALANCE and make me eat crow.. 
I'm okay.. I will apologize and put myself down how wrong I was if you prove me wrong..

 

But you won't.. 
You will just drop off because you have no evidence. I know I am not worth your time responding to.. Common forum response when someone has no evidence to back what they are saying.. 

Check it out, YOU are making the suggestion here. Provide proof for your changes, show any semblance of a thoughtful idea and maybe more people would support it. I'm not convinced there is even a suggestion here - maybe try a little harder?

[Naraka]

16 hours ago, plainguy said:

Again I state why.. 
if your picking up MORE attacks for example.. Then you have less of something else.. EG a defense pool like fighting, leadership..  

Is there any evidence that the attacks from Sorcery, Experimentation or Force of Will are greater than the attacks of a Primary or Secondary ?  I am sure in this world of min and max this type of info would have already been revealed and we would see a copious amounts of farming builds based around it. 

These are in Power Pools.. Not Ancillary and Epics.. Not in some category of their own.. 
It is the same if you pick up every travel power you will gimp yourself in other areas of the game.. 

So again I say why..
I have never seen someone paste together some theory that adding these pools together will over balance a character either based on what is required, meaning you need 2 powers to get another further down the line..

If someone has by all means I would love to see it. 

 

The powers shouldn't have to be more powerful to want to preemptively balance them among their peers.  People are always asking for improvements and QoL, so imagine people wanting some of the buff powers or some of the attack powers in pools to be buffed.  Well that can't happen if you can then pick up and slot any of the powers without limitations.

 

The interesting part is, you now have more power slots to pick powers with *because* they made the pools less restrictive and now look.  You were given an inch and now you want another inch.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Naraka

[Hardship]

10 hours ago, plainguy said:

You said balance but bring no proof of it.

I think that the "proof" is that they currently ARE exclusive. A character is not allow more than one. Since this game mechanic was introduced with the "origin" power pools, it hardly seem accidental.