What are you guys doing to revive PvP? A suggestion.

[Mezmera]

29 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

-Noob-friendly events on the busiest servers (not Indomitable) hosted by the official Homecoming PvP GMs and CRs. (Advertised on the forums and in-game.)

 

I liked the intent of the last official event.  I'm no noob though, and assuming someone is such won't attract people to your side. 

 

Yes someone coming into the current mess might not be aware of the meta blaster/defender w/proc'd holds, but it doesn't mean they are new to coh pvp, maybe they just don't like being boxed into playing certain characters to be able to compete, no matter how good they can train to be.  

 

You may get more people to play it and keep interest if their favorite AT felt a bit more viable.  Since there's a few things easily identified as OP why not balance the other side to compensate.  Make some OP things that corruptors, doms, controllers and whoever else can leverage against the meta if you're not going to fix the meta.  

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mezmera

[America's Angel]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I'd say that was a radical idea, if not for the "free accolades that only work in PVP" that already exist. And it would very directly and decisively knock down one of the things I mentioned as a barrier to entry (having gone from "everyone's using SOs" to the current setup where, yes, a build *is* important.)

 

No, it wouldn't completely throw the door open to where we'd see a giant chunk of people in zone (or arena) events - but it'd help. Or at least have people feel like staying around to learn is *worthwhile.*

 

... You'd just have to teach them how to use/access a second or third build. ;) About the only thing I'd say to go along *with* this is a popup or something to warn someone going from a PVP to PVE environment that "Reminder: You are currently using PVP-only IOs that will not work in PVE content!" But that isn't a huge deal (unless it's their only build, somehow - like they respecced instead of using a secondary build.)

 

It was your comment that made me mention it! I remember Faultline said a year or so ago that free PvP-locked IOs was something he'd be interested in looking at. But I'm sure there's a long list of things that also applies to. 

 

I think a lot of casual players like the idea of having a second build for PvP. (Even if they only PvP once in a blue moon.) So removing the influence requirement would be great for them. It would obviously help hardcore PvPer types too, who don't really want to spend time farming/playing the market.

 

I think as long as the vendor explains to players that what they're about to buy only works in PvP environments, it should be fine.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I liked the intent of the last official event.  I'm no noob though, and assuming someone is such won't attract people to your side. 

 

Yes someone coming into the current mess might not be aware of the meta blaster/defender w/proc'd holds, but it doesn't mean they are new to coh pvp, maybe they just don't like being boxed into playing certain characters to be able to compete, no matter how good they can train to be.  

 

You may get more people to play it and keep interest if their favorite AT felt a bit more viable.  Since there's a few things easily identified as OP why not balance the other side to compensate.  Make some OP things that corruptors, doms, controllers and whoever else can leverage against the meta if your not going to fix the meta.  

 

I suggested we run events for noobs. That's not the same as calling people noobs. (Although, admittedly "beginners" or "casuals" might have been a better word to use.)

 

But yes, I completely agree. Boosting up underperforming ATs and underperforming powersets would be good for PvP. That's a long slow process though. (And is currently taking place on the Golden Testers Discord.) One of the things I've been pushing for is buffs to underperforming melee sets.

 

That's more of a Step 4 kinda thing, though.

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

It was your comment that made me mention it! I remember Faultline said a year or so ago that free PvP-locked IOs was something he'd be interested in looking at. But I'm sure there's a long list of things that also applies to. 

 

I think a lot of casual players like the idea of having a second build for PvP. (Even if they only PvP once in a blue moon.) So removing the influence requirement would be great for them. It would obviously help hardcore PvPer types too, who don't really want to spend time farming/playing the market.

 

I think as long as the vendor explains to players that what they're about to buy only works in PvP environments, it should be fine.

 

 

 

I suggested we run events for noobs. That's not the same as calling people noobs. (Although, admittedly "beginners" or "casuals" might have been a better word to use.)

 

But yes, I completely agree. Boosting up underperforming ATs and underperforming powersets would be good for PvP. That's a long slow process though. (And is currently taking place on the Golden Testers Discord.) One of the things I've been pushing for is buffs to underperforming melee sets.

 

That's more of a Step 4 kinda thing, though.

 

I think some problem can be attributed to jump teams and fite clubbers having such sway that they get something like a dark control hold nerfed because it lasts a bit too long. 

 

Like, okay so you want to nerf a hold on a control character that's behaving a bit too well because it holds players to get spiked long enough to get killed, but you're not going to look at maybe why so many damage procs detonating at once may be a problem?  That some characters have been revamped a bit too well?  No, it's the dark hold that needs to be nerfed.  

 

It's not a long slow process.  Just don't nerf overperforming things on disadvantaged AT's like TK (doms/trollers), melee stuns, dark holds, etc.  Or make a new meta to see how the other side likes it, dial up the control of actual control characters to last twice as long as they currently do. 

 

The placate proc has been a problem in psi blasters since psi blasters were created and there hasn't been a fix on that, but a hold lasting a second or two longer gets fixed quick.  

 

"Noobs" have good ideas of what they'd like to see too for the time they endeavor to spend in the game as well.  If one area is just going to stay broken, so be it, there's other things to do in the game.  

[Illy]

Continue developing pvp around the interests of private, arranged fight clubs and artificially balanced arena matches, and you will see that 2.4% sink to 1.2% in no time flat. 

 

No one who is interested in pvp but has never gotten their feet wet wants to awkwardly elbow their way into these insular and idiosyncratic cliques. But that's the only option they're given if they want to start pvping: learn how to adhere to a strictly enforced doctrine of self-nerfing and arbitrary archetype bans. 

 

I'm telling you this from the outside looking in: its a cancerous scenario, and the un-initiated don't want anything to do with it. We're all too old now to show up for try-outs in some video game. That's why I suggested bringing the pvp to the noobs instead by introducing some form of world pvp, even if its just the option to flag yourself for pvp.  Zone and world pvp allows them to play at their own pace, their own way, with whatever powerset they choose, and with whoever they want. Its way more friendly to the larger population of CoH than sweaty arena matches. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Illy

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

 

I think some problem can be attributed to jump teams and fite clubbers having such sway that they get something like a dark control hold nerfed because it lasts a bit too long. 

 

Like, okay so you want to nerf a hold on a control character that's behaving a bit too well because it holds players to get spiked long enough to get killed, but you're not going to look at maybe why so many damage procs detonating at once may be a problem?  That some characters have been revamped a bit too well?  No, it's the dark hold that needs to be nerfed.  

 

It's not a long slow process.  Just don't nerf overperforming things on disadvantaged AT's like TK (doms/trollers), melee stuns, dark holds, etc.  Or make a new meta to see how the other side likes it, dial up the control of actual control characters to last twice as long as they currently do. 

 

The placate proc has been a problem in psi blasters since psi blasters were created and there hasn't been a fix on that, but a hold lasting a second or two longer gets fixed quick.  

 

"Noobs" have good ideas of what they'd like to see too for the time they endeavor to spend in the game as well.  If one area is just going to stay broken, so be it, there's other things to do in the game.  

 

It is a slow process. I say this as someone who has been there for the entire process. From when Faultline started making PvP changes last year, until now. It takes a long time to make powerset balance tweaks. Because you have to go through the following process:

• Get consensus to test
• Get dev time to implement requested change
• Players test it
• Players report feedback
• Changes get added to next major release (which has its own beta cycle)

That takes time. And in some cases (like the Fortunata Proc) require a code-change to implement. This means the change will take a very long time to happen. In the case of the fortunata proc, the devs have wanted to nerf it for months, but now it's going to have to wait until Page 3 is released. Because that's how game development works sometimes. Minor changes are not always easy to implement.

 

What you want is already happening. Just very slowly. Because: volunteer dev team. Underperforming powersets are being buffed. Right now Invuln, Elec Armour, and Elec Affinity are all in the process of being buffed.

 

If you want to speed up the process, come join the Golden Testers Discord:

 

https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

 

 

1 hour ago, Illy said:

Continue developing pvp around the interests of private, arranged fight clubs and severely doctored arena matches, and you will see that 2.4% sink to 1.2% in no time flat. 

 

No one who is interested in pvp but has never gotten their feet wet wants to awkwardly elbow their way into these insular and idiosyncratic cliques. But that's the only option they're given if they want to start pvping-- learn how to adhere to a strictly enforced doctrine of self-nerfing and arbitrary archetype bans. 

 

I'm telling you this from the outside looking in, its a cancerous scenario, and the un-initiated don't want anything to do with it. We're all too old now to show up for try-outs in some video game. That's why I suggested bringing the pvp to the noobs instead by introducing some form of world pvp, even if its just the option to flag yourself for pvp.  Zone and world pvp allows them to play at their own place, their own way, with whatever powerset they choose, and with whoever they want. Its way more friendly to the larger population of CoH than sweaty arena matches.

 

I think you're conflating why PvP has always been unpopular with why the PvP playerbase is currently shrinking. They're not equivalent.

 

PvP being unpopular (~5% of the playerbase) is due to a number of things. None of them new. None of them the cause of the recent player dropoff.

 

Take the focus of PvP changes being 8v8/Fightclub/Zone, for example. These have always been the areas the dev team focused on. So we can't use that to explain why the PvP population was larger last year than it is now. If the developmental focus has remained constant, but the PvP playerbase has shrunk, then the variable is something else. We have to look at what has changed.

 

So, what has changed since last year?

• This game is old. The nostalgia factor of it being back is starting to wear off for people. (In both PvE and PvP.)
• Player burnout in general. Fewer people are playing CoH than before. (And as PvP is already a smaller part of the playerbase, they feel this drop in player numbers more acutely.)
• The population of Indomitable shrinking as PvE groups leave to Excelsior. 
• There being no active GM/CR running PvP events.
• PvP changes happening too slowly keep players interested. (8v8ers are sick of fighting teams using Nature. Fightclubbers are sick of fighting Regen Brutes. Zone players are bored of Recluse's Victory.)
• Some PvP changes happened in a way that caused PvPers to just quit CoH outright. (Crey Pistol accolade no longer animation cancelling being the big one.)
• Decreased population/burnout causing the mods in the PvP discord to be around less, which allows trolls to flourish there, which makes the PvP discord unpleasant for new people.
• Linked to all the above - anytime anyone asks what PvP is like, everyone always replies "it's dead!". Which obviously speeds up the speed of players quitting PvP. (Why stick around if people say it's dead? Why start PvPing if it's dying?)

Some of the above are causes, some of them are just accelerants. They all feed into each other and make the problem worse.

 

This is why I suggested GM/CR-led newbie-friendly PvP events on the busier servers. As that touches several of the problem points in the above list.

 

Your idea of turning Indomitable into an open world PvP server would actually make the current problem worse. It would just cause an exodus of all the PvE groups, which would cause even fewer PvP players to stick around. (Plus you'd essentially turn every PvP lobby, such as the area by the monkey cages in Pocket D, into a gankfest. It would be impossible to organise events on.)

Edited July 22, 2021 by America's Angel

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

 Zone players are bored of Recluse's Victory.

 

And I just want to touch on - well, two things, thinking of this. Actually, maybe three.

 

1. Even on live, even during the heyday of PVP, I rarely enjoyed Warburg or RV. It felt more like a T9-off than fighting, either as or dealing with classes with armor.

 

2. One of the things I kind of wish would go away in zone is the "+5 levels worth of powers when exemped." For reason 1, it helped kill interest in Siren's Call (which needs... help, anyway, and I think I've posted about that - bounty's not worth it, the zone NPC battles are meh and slow - that sort of thing. Used to be my favourite zone, though.) I don't think there'd be a lot of support for that, though.

 

3. I actually ran across a couple of people who *wanted* to PVP in BB... eesh, probably close to two months ago now. While it had some of the obvious problems of the allowed level range (one of the instigators was a stalker who could barely get in the zone, I was on a 22 or so SS/WP brute, we had others swapping in and out) - it was *fun.* Nobody had a "build" really (until the end, and even then it was kind of fun trying to figure out how to 2v1 that PVP build MM.) It was a callback to the old casual zone days in a lot of ways. And I think if more people had *that* experience, well...

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

So tapping in my memory of the long long ago in the way back, I suddenly recalled short lived MMO and one of its more unique charms. Some here may have played or heard of the Matrix MMO, and yes it had a hello kitty of a lot of issues. Yet it had one thing that I have seen basically never in MMO, that some of the conversation in this thread kept stirring up.

 

And that was that it had a group of always online live in game GMs in the form of iconic characters from the films. These GMs basically acted as real time admin/NPC directors for events they could trigger. Think in CoH here the GMs being made in the image of the iconic heroes, and having in game hang out spots players could reliably find them at for advice and help.

 

If we did have that kind of active in game team here, I think we could without a lot of other tweaking, and an understanding that some pvp can turn into out right grief and harassment even if it began as mutual fun and that the GMs would need to be ready and willing to stop if it was clearly causing a players play time to turn negative.

 

Some fun things we might be able to see a GM do( total spit balling no idea if it can actually be done with the code) could be a GM having the power to turn a player into a war wolf, with all of its abilities and flagged as a mob. Some kind of random mind control confusion effect causing mass chaos etc. These kind of random unexpected every fight or flee type GM caused pvp chaos events could be a lot of fun for some at least.

 

You see for me PVP should be about creating a more immersive game and player experience first and foremost. If it cant do that, if it cant feel like its part of a characters actual life in however it gets adjusted and adapted for the modern community here, then I at least wont likely be interested in it. And as I have said I am not some oh PVP is evil type of MMO gamer, I enjoy PVP when it feels like both sides have a real chance of killing the other. I rather prefer quick and dead scenerios and frankly feel it is the survival ATs that need the biggest nerf in PVP. I do not think a player should ever be able to tank another players damage in any meaningful way.  But then again I am the guy who as a teenager played 007 Golden Eye on the N64 on 1 shot kill dif so I could not ever allow myself to be hit,and could never afford to miss that first shot with my PPK when i went around a corner and ducked and put a roung in my opponents head as their round flew over mine.

 

Ultimately though due to the nature of ATs I really dont know if any form of real parity can be achieved. Trollers want to troll, tankers want to tank, and blasters will want to blast foes to ash in moments. And none of these 3 play styles interests tend to align well in PVP wants ime.

[America's Angel]

8 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

So tapping in my memory of the long long ago in the way back, I suddenly recalled short lived MMO and one of its more unique charms. Some here may have played or heard of the Matrix MMO, and yes it had a hello kitty of a lot of issues. Yet it had one thing that I have seen basically never in MMO, that some of the conversation in this thread kept stirring up.

 

And that was that it had a group of always online live in game GMs in the form of iconic characters from the films. These GMs basically acted as real time admin/NPC directors for events they could trigger. Think in CoH here the GMs being made in the image of the iconic heroes, and having in game hang out spots players could reliably find them at for advice and help.

 

If we did have that kind of active in game team here, I think we could without a lot of other tweaking, and an understanding that some pvp can turn into out right grief and harassment even if it began as mutual fun and that the GMs would need to be ready and willing to stop if it was clearly causing a players play time to turn negative.

 

Some fun things we might be able to see a GM do( total spit balling no idea if it can actually be done with the code) could be a GM having the power to turn a player into a war wolf, with all of its abilities and flagged as a mob. Some kind of random mind control confusion effect causing mass chaos etc. These kind of random unexpected every fight or flee type GM caused pvp chaos events could be a lot of fun for some at least.

 

You see for me PVP should be about creating a more immersive game and player experience first and foremost. If it cant do that, if it cant feel like its part of a characters actual life in however it gets adjusted and adapted for the modern community here, then I at least wont likely be interested in it. And as I have said I am not some oh PVP is evil type of MMO gamer, I enjoy PVP when it feels like both sides have a real chance of killing the other. I rather prefer quick and dead scenerios and frankly feel it is the survival ATs that need the biggest nerf in PVP. I do not think a player should ever be able to tank another players damage in any meaningful way.  But then again I am the guy who as a teenager played 007 Golden Eye on the N64 on 1 shot kill dif so I could not ever allow myself to be hit,and could never afford to miss that first shot with my PPK when i went around a corner and ducked and put a roung in my opponents head as their round flew over mine.

 

Ultimately though due to the nature of ATs I really dont know if any form of real parity can be achieved. Trollers want to troll, tankers want to tank, and blasters will want to blast foes to ash in moments. And none of these 3 play styles interests tend to align well in PVP wants ime.

 

I remember the Matrix Online GMs. They were incredible. (One of them, Ben Chamberlain, now writes webcomic called Supermassive Black Hole.) I remember hearing stories about him  RPing as characters from the game with other players. He'd show up as Trinity or Morpheus, and run player events/RP with famous RP players/guilds, and generally just be visible in a way that made the playerbase feel that the game lore mattered, and that they were interacting with it.

 

The closest CoH on live ever came to something like this, PVP-wise, was the RPVP events that used to take place on Virtue. There was a group of player characters called The Sadistic Seven. And they ran an RPVP campaign across a number of months where they tried to invade Paragon. Each month they would try and invade via a different zone (Bloody Bay, Siren's Call, Warburg, and Recluse's Victory.) Plenty of RPers and casuals joined up on each side to try and help/hinder them. And although the outcome was predetermined (villains lose) everyone had a great time. Despite not being competative in the slightest, it is easily the highlight of my time PvPing in CoH.

 

Now, I know the Homecoming GMs sometimes show up on Everlasting RPing as the iconic characters. (Scirocco, Mako, and Foreshadow being the most frequent) But how cool would it be to have events where players had to face-off/team-up with a dev-controlled signature hero? How epic would a PvP battle be between two sides, one ledby Positron, the other by Ghost Widow? How awesome would it be to have these long, ongoing, player-involved server-wide storylines that can incorporate RP, PvE, PvP, AE, base building, and the forums/discord as a constant source of event news?

[Mezmera]

10 hours ago, America's Angel said:

It is a slow process. I say this as someone who has been there for the entire process. From when Faultline started making PvP changes last year, until now. It takes a long time to make powerset balance tweaks. Because you have to go through the following process:

• Get consensus to test
• Get dev time to implement requested change
• Players test it
• Players report feedback
• Changes get added to next major release (which has its own beta cycle)

That takes time. And in some cases (like the Fortunata Proc) require a code-change to implement. This means the change will take a very long time to happen. In the case of the fortunata proc, the devs have wanted to nerf it for months, but now it's going to have to wait until Page 3 is released. Because that's how game development works sometimes. Minor changes are not always easy to implement.

 

What you want is already happening. Just very slowly. Because: volunteer dev team. Underperforming powersets are being buffed. Right now Invuln, Elec Armour, and Elec Affinity are all in the process of being buffed.

 

If you want to speed up the process, come join the Golden Testers Discord:

 

https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

 

Fine and dandy.  I know there's the impending proc changes which will impact every AT for pve or pvp.  That's fine.  But if all this time you're not going to take the bull by the horns and address blasters and defenders being OP on their face why keep badgering with further nerfs to the minority?  

 

I rarely use Discord unless I'm there to help a sg with their itrial.  But still I don't use a mic since I know the drill.  Discord is a good tool to use sure but at the same time it's a crutch and a cop out.  The amount of messaging and feedback that can be achieved outside of the discord is being discounted to maintain control over a particular direction that has already been deemed chosen.  So on this discord the little voice will get drowned out by group think, which I don't want to adhere to.  

 

Sure listen to the pvp pro's or the speed team pve pro's on the discord.  But the vast majority don't go to this one place, some use these forums to voice their opinions and others assume the beta testing shard is more than just a bug testing area for changes already just going to happen. 

 

They do a good job of announcing monthly donations with in game messages popping up, what's so hard about directing people to give feedback about things they may care to share their experience with or desire to have happen?  

 

I'm fine to play the game where I enjoy it, but sometimes the pro's and devs alone can be their own worst enemy.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mezmera

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Mezmera said:

 

Fine and dandy.  I know there's the impending proc changes which will impact every AT for pve or pvp.  That's fine.  But if all this time you're not going to take the bull by the horns and address blasters and defenders being OP on their face why keep badgering with further nerfs to the minority?  

 

I rarely use Discord unless I'm there to help a sg with their itrial.  But still I don't use a mic since I know the drill.  Discord is a good tool to use sure but at the same time it's a crutch and a cop out.  The amount of messaging and feedback that can be achieved outside of the discord is being discounted to maintain control over a particular direction that has already been deemed chosen.  So on this discord the little voice will get drowned out by group think, which I don't want to adhere to.  

 

Sure listen to the pvp pro's or the speed team pve pro's on the discord.  But the vast majority don't go to this one place, some use these forums to voice their opinions and others assume the beta testing shard is more than just a bug testing area for changes already just going to happen. 

 

They do a good job of announcing monthly donations with in game messages popping up, what's so hard about directing people to give feedback about things they may care to share their experience with or desire to have happen?  

 

I'm fine to play the game where I enjoy it, but sometimes the pro's and devs alone can be their own worst enemy.

 

As someone who is his own personal Arch Nemesis, I concur that there seems to be a fair amount of that going on among the HC Devs and the META mindset types. HC would be far better served doing as you suggest and using in game messages and even polls in game rather than on these forums to garner vital player feedback. Every time I talk to a friend in Paragon about coming to these forums to add their voice to a topic, the response is a resounding hell no the kind of players who come to a games forums are always the worst of its population. Which is actually indeed the common view in most MMOs in game population about those who are active on the Forums of their game. Admitting I post on the forums tends to get me a why would you do that to yourself from most of my in game associates.

 

That I find is one of the things a lot who think of themselves as vital forum posters never even think about the reality of, that in fact in mainstream MMO ingame communities Forumites have always been seen as a negative portion of the player community by the larger whole.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Llewellyn Blackwell
trying to keep it civilized

[MsSmart]

PvP mmm....

 

I love PvP, but for it to be fun, it truly needs to be sporting, and for that, it requires a true balance among the classes or arch types. The Arch type balance by design are awfully unbalanced from an individual perspective, for the concept of group interaction versus PvE is central to the design. Notice that the PvE engine does not have the AI to know to ignore the melee and suck it to the support, especially any healers. As a result the game works, you can play the defender with not even near the protections the melee has and still be a successful team member.

 

The problem with PvP, is that the other team, knows the rule that when the opposition's support is down, the rest will follow. That means if you are defender, for instance, the bulls eye is on you, and the class is no way even close to be able to handle that, since their protections are sadly deficient. So when it goes to PvP it takes a real special type of player to want to play such an under dog class.

 

If you going to give PvP a real boost, it would require a no kidding normalization between all the arch-types; which is a step beyond and most players would be so totally against for they like the status quo the enjoy. Think of a balance between dps and protection, the more dps the less protection; if enforced you approach arch-type balance. So for example a scraper has tremendous dps and very good protections; which by the dps versus protection rule it is out of balance.

 

In my opinion, PvP is as good as it gets, without a major rebalance and design of the game, who most folks just don't want

 

Sue

[aethereal]

16 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

PvP mmm....

 

I love PvP, but for it to be fun, it truly needs to be sporting, and for that, it requires a true balance among the classes or arch types. The Arch type balance by design are awfully unbalanced from an individual perspective, for the concept of group interaction versus PvE is central to the design. Notice that the PvE engine does not have the AI to know to ignore the melee and suck it to the support, especially any healers. As a result the game works, you can play the defender with not even near the protections the melee has and still be a successful team member.

 

That has... elements of truth, but it's certainly not unconditionally true.  In PvE, the job of target selection is mainly done through threat mechanics, and all else being equal, control and debuff generate a lot of threat and will pull target selection to defenders/controllers.  (I don't remember how much threat healing/buffing generates, but certainly some, and it could be tweaked).

 

Taunt overrides threat, and forces target selection of the taunter for the duration of the taunt. If you play a melee character without taunt (some scrappers and all stalker), you will in fact find that the enemy mostly ignores you and goes to the bank rank.

 

Of course, the entire point of tanks is that they are supposed to be able to force themselves to the top of the target selection, though we could quibble about exactly how easy that should be.

 

16 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

 

The problem with PvP, is that the other team, knows the rule that when the opposition's support is down, the rest will follow. That means if you are defender, for instance, the bulls eye is on you, and the class is no way even close to be able to handle that, since their protections are sadly deficient. So when it goes to PvP it takes a real special type of player to want to play such an under dog class.

 

Taunt functions in PvP.

[Greycat]

12 hours ago, MsSmart said:

PvP mmm....

 

I love PvP, but for it to be fun, it truly needs to be sporting, and for that, it requires a true balance among the classes or arch types.

 

*Archetype!* Arch types are architectural or structural issues! (Or feet.)   (Sorry, couldn't leave that nitpick out. It's in fun, not actual criticism. 😉 )

 

Anyway. What I really wanted to highlight this for is that you *can't* balance between archetypes, because the number of primary and secondary combinations throw that wildly out of balance just within themselves. Even with the same primary, an Earth/FF controller (for instance) will play radically different, PVE or PVP, than an Earth/Storm, or Earth/Rad, or Earth/Emp. And that's *before* getting into IOs, much less builds.  Other games? Either everything's fairly even, or you do pretty much just have classes - they may have slightly different gear giving them a slight HP, damage, defense or speed boost, but typically a level X class is going to be very similar to another of the same level and class. The developer may throw a new set of guns or swords or what have you in, but one or two will go to the top and stay there until the *next* batch.

 

I don't envy anyone trying to get some sort of balance or parity in this game, PVP wise.

[arcane]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:50 AM, America's Angel said:

-Noob-friendly events on the busiest servers (not Indomitable) hosted by the official Homecoming PvP GMs and CRs. (Advertised on the forums and in-game.)

-PvP versions of every IO in the game, which can be purchased for free, and that only work in PvP.

-Updated guides from veteran players.

And all of the above would need to be done with an open mind from the current veteran PvP community to be successful. I have no interest in PvP anymore if it’s going to be the veteran way or the highway. I actually like the PvP engine in this game, but the tiny Indomitable community with a very narrow agenda has pretty much refused to grow.

[Grouchybeast]

I'm always surprised that no one has ever started up a PVP-focused server and concentrated on really developing mechanics and balancing for the PVP game, without needing to consider effects on the PVE game at all.  One of the biggest advantages of the code being out in the wild is that the players now have the power to take the game and shape it the way they want, instead of having to wheedle the devs into doing it.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I'm always surprised that no one has ever started up a PVP-focused server and concentrated on really developing mechanics and balancing for the PVP game, without needing to consider effects on the PVE game at all.  One of the biggest advantages of the code being out in the wild is that the players now have the power to take the game and shape it the way they want, instead of having to wheedle the devs into doing it.

Considering the #1 reason the current PvP scene is dysfunctional is population-related, further partitioning the population just to tinker with the mechanics will never really yield anything worthwhile.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Considering the #1 reason the current PvP scene is dysfunctional is population-related, further partitioning the population just to tinker with the mechanics will never really yield anything worthwhile.

 

If we're talking "make a server here like that," sure. That's part of the argument.

 

But with the code in the wild - I mused earlier, too, that it's surpris8ing nobody's set up a "PVP everywhere" server, given it's not an uncommon ask. Maybe not top 10 or 20, but probably top 100, since live.

 

And, since it *is* in the wild, people could do it just out of curiosity, wanting to see if it can be done, wanting to see what all the pitfalls are, etc. Just doing that to "satisfy curiosity" is worthwhile, IMHO. The population will do what the population will do.

[macskull]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:03 AM, Mezmera said:

I think some problem can be attributed to jump teams and fite clubbers having such sway that they get something like a dark control hold nerfed because it lasts a bit too long. 

To be entirely fair, the Dark Control hold was completely broken and getting hit by it was a death sentence.

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

If we're talking "make a server here like that," sure. That's part of the argument.

 

But with the code in the wild - I mused earlier, too, that it's surpris8ing nobody's set up a "PVP everywhere" server, given it's not an uncommon ask. Maybe not top 10 or 20, but probably top 100, since live.

 

And, since it *is* in the wild, people could do it just out of curiosity, wanting to see if it can be done, wanting to see what all the pitfalls are, etc. Just doing that to "satisfy curiosity" is worthwhile, IMHO. The population will do what the population will do.

It's been discussed on the PvP Discord before, but most people lack the coding knowledge to make it happen and those who do have the knowledge lack the time and resources.

[Mezmera]

22 minutes ago, macskull said:

To be entirely fair, the Dark Control hold was completely broken and getting hit by it was a death sentence.

 

On a well coordinated jump team sure, but so be it.  Maybe don't give blasters absorb shields plus such insurmountable hp that a hold that lasts a few seconds longer seems like such a crucial difference.  Or a nature defender that can just stop in the middle of a zone and shrug off damage like its nothing. 

 

Coordinating games, players were quick to point out not to use certain "broken" powers like TK (when it worked).  Why no self policing on broken AT's?  Only 2 blasters and 1 stalker per team and there goes your argument about a hold being broken.  

 

I'd rather the "experts" just reverted all of the "broken" powers they "fixed" that other AT's could leverage against these damage platforms with bags of hp.  If you can't balance things better it'd make sense to me to allow disadvantaged things to have their OP toys as well.  

 

If you think a hold lasting a second or two longer is broken then man PvP sure does have a long way to go.   

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Mezmera

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

On a well coordinated jump team sure, but so be it.  Maybe don't give blasters absorb shields plus such insurmountable hp that a hold that lasts a few seconds longer seems like such a crucial difference.  Or a nature defender that can just stop in the middle of a zone and shrug off damage like its nothing. 

In an environment where even a one-or-two-second mez can get you killed, an eight-second one (before enhancements or other boosts) is indefensible. You're approaching this from an either/or perspective where the options were either to rein in blasters or nerf Dark Grasp when in reality that isn't at all the case. All outlier mez durations were adjusted - some were made longer, some were made shorter, Blasters got the +range from their snipes removed in PvP, and there's still been talk about how to approach Blaster balance. It's not like it's being ignored.

 

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Coordinating games, players were quick to point out not to use certain "broken" powers like TK (when it worked).  Why no self policing on broken AT's?  Only 2 blasters and 1 stalker per team and there goes your argument about a hold being broken.

AT limits (and limitations on certain powersets, e.g. Poison) have been a part of team PvP in this game pretty much since HC came back. Zone PvP is a different matter entirely and you can't really "police" things at all in that environment.

 

The I13 changes had the unfortunate effect of making Dominators and non-support Controllers way worse in a team PvP environment than they used to be and I know you're a Dom main so I absolutely understand the frustration but giving those ATs intentionally broken powers isn't the right way to fix things.

[Mezmera]

Just now, macskull said:

In an environment where even a one-or-two-second mez can get you killed, an eight-second one (before enhancements or other boosts) is indefensible. You're approaching this from an either/or perspective where the options were either to rein in blasters or nerf Dark Grasp when in reality that isn't at all the case. All outlier mez durations were adjusted - some were made longer, some were made shorter, Blasters got the +range from their snipes removed in PvP, and there's still been talk about how to approach Blaster balance. It's not like it's being ignored.

 

AT limits (and limitations on certain powersets, e.g. Poison) have been a part of team PvP in this game pretty much since HC came back. Zone PvP is a different matter entirely and you can't really "police" things at all in that environment.

 

The I13 changes had the unfortunate effect of making Dominators and non-support Controllers way worse in a team PvP environment than they used to be and I know you're a Dom main so I absolutely understand the frustration but giving those ATs intentionally broken powers isn't the right way to fix things.

 

Here's the thing.  I used to PvP my Mind/Nrg dom AFTER the i13 changes and still loved playing it.  They broke mez down sure, but I'm objective enough to see how sad it was that once you ran someone out of breakfrees it was game over.  So normalizing the mez system where it wasn't an auto win for my toon I was fine with.  But as it stands the mez system currently favors the non control characters.  Who just so happen to do what they do much better already.  

 

Sure in an 8v8 setting I know I'm getting spiked because you better spike the one with a TK to hold a healer and then can get back on target to hold the called target.  Plus the inherent survival skills afforded doms were already limited what with having the lowest base hp.  Thems just the breaks.  

 

Tell you what.  Since the mez system currently favors blasters/defenders so much then just give my Dom an absorb shield in their secondary, 1800hp and raise my blasts to do more base damage than a blaster.  Seems fair eh.  

 

I'd gladly trade a hold that lasts a smidge longer for a helping of everything the meta currently enjoys.  

 

Don't discount those coming in with fresh eyes.  What has happened since the game was last on live to where it's at now has only further homogenized pvp to the arena of a few specific characters.   

[macskull]

12 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Tell you what.  Since the mez system currently favors blasters/defenders so much then just give my Dom an absorb shield in their secondary, 1800hp and raise my blasts to do more base damage than a blaster.  Seems fair eh.  

The mez system still favors Dominators and Controllers, but the PvP system as a whole favors damage dealers. Even back on live during large-team PvP events with AT limits teams would run Blasters and Dominators but Nature is sorta overtuned right now so people started swapping out the Doms for Corruptors (Scourge is nice and having 1070 base HP instead of 1017 makes builds less tight).

Edited July 26, 2021 by macskull

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

The mez system still favors Dominators and Controllers, but the PvP system as a whole favors damage dealers. Even back on live during large-team PvP events with AT limits teams would run Blasters and Dominators but Nature is sorta overtuned right now so people started swapping out the Doms for Corruptors.

 

You can't technically stop a blaster from blasting.  You hold them they can still blast because you have to be in their range to blast them while they're "held".  Then when they blast you with their hold it detonates a crap ton of damage.  The only area a hold matters best from the control characters is the larger matches.   But then you should be spiking them.  The end result is doms being so underperforming they get swapped for corruptors.  Sad.

 

Yes PvP as a whole favors damage dealers and it keeps getting skewed further with "fixes".

[golstat2003]

On 7/22/2021 at 9:26 AM, Greycat said:

 

And I just want to touch on - well, two things, thinking of this. Actually, maybe three.

 

1. Even on live, even during the heyday of PVP, I rarely enjoyed Warburg or RV. It felt more like a T9-off than fighting, either as or dealing with classes with armor.

 

2. One of the things I kind of wish would go away in zone is the "+5 levels worth of powers when exemped." For reason 1, it helped kill interest in Siren's Call (which needs... help, anyway, and I think I've posted about that - bounty's not worth it, the zone NPC battles are meh and slow - that sort of thing. Used to be my favourite zone, though.) I don't think there'd be a lot of support for that, though.

 

3. I actually ran across a couple of people who *wanted* to PVP in BB... eesh, probably close to two months ago now. While it had some of the obvious problems of the allowed level range (one of the instigators was a stalker who could barely get in the zone, I was on a 22 or so SS/WP brute, we had others swapping in and out) - it was *fun.* Nobody had a "build" really (until the end, and even then it was kind of fun trying to figure out how to 2v1 that PVP build MM.) It was a callback to the old casual zone days in a lot of ways. And I think if more people had *that* experience, well...

 

When I pvp'd heavily on live it was in the zones. I avoided arena after trying it a few times, as there were too many rules. (Ban's, what can be run, show up for practice at a set time).

I just didn't have the time for that and did not enjoy many powers I enjoyed in pve, being a "no no" in pvp. So I stuck to zone.

Edited July 27, 2021 by golstat2003