Defeat, Debt, and Resurrection

[Xing]

Bottom line up front: I suggest that debt be incurred when a character uses the “Transport to hospital” function instead of when they are defeated.

 

Given: 

1. Four of the 13 “defense” sets have self resurrection powers (two of them are tier nine) and eight of the 16 “support” sets have teammate resurrection powers. (I used Scrapper and Defender sets in this example).

2. With the current system of debt being incurred when a character is defeated, being defeated is considered the “fail state”. 

3. Players are therefore building characters with the intention of making defeat something to be avoided at all costs.

4. Players are given a disincentive to select powers designed to resurrect, as resurrecting occurs after the “fail state”. 

 

I believe:

1. No power should be considered a “dud” power. While not every power will work with every build, the game should not be designed to actively discourage any particular power.

2. A Hero (or Villain) doesn’t fail when they get knocked down, they only fail when they don’t get back up again.

 

Therefore I suggest:

The system should be changed so that debt is incurred when a character uses the “Transport to hospital” function instead of when they are defeated.

 

I think:

1. This will encourage more players to take self-resurrection and team-resurrection powers, leading to more mid-battle resurrections. Mid-battle resurrections have the potential to dramatically turn the tide when done properly.

2. This will encourage more players to design for less than “Soft-cap” defenses, leading to more diverse builds.

3. This fits thematically with the lore of CoX. The “Transport to hospital” mechanic is a service that the taxpayers of Paragon City (as well as the patrons of the Rogue Isles, and the dictatorship of Praetoria,) provides to its citizens. The debt should be incurred when the service is used.

 

Some potential issues with this change may be:

1. Resurrection powers, self-resurrection powers, and/or powers affecting defeated allies may become overpowered. Vengeance from the leadership pool and Fallout from the Radiation Emission pool in particular may present challenges.

2. Debt (and therefore debt badges) may become more difficult to accrue.

3. Characters with self-resurrection powers will be able to self-rez with no penalty, theoretically allowing them to steamroll all content with no debt and no trips to the hospital.

 

However I argue:

1. Better is not the enemy of perfect. Powers that need adjusting can be adjusted as the need arises. Defeat powers are designed to be powerful because defeat is uncommon. I do not think defeat will suddenly be everywhere with a rash of characters being built as sacrificial lambs to abuse Vengeance. If there are, balance issues can be addressed as needed.

2. There are still plenty of ways to accrue debt. 

3. Resurrecting does not eliminate the threat that initially defeated the character. If a character is not powerful enough for the game content they are attempting, resurrecting back into the content will not give them an unfair advantage.

 

A note regarding toggles:

I have seen arguments regarding toggles and how they should be handled regarding defeat and resurrection. Some have advocated that toggles should be suppressed instead of detoggled, so that when resurrected the character does not have to reactivate their toggle powers. 

I respectfully disagree. I believe: 

1. From a gameplay standpoint, self-resurrection powers distinguish themselves from each other based upon the secondary effects that come with the power and how the rest of the set works. Choosing whether or not to reactivate the toggles is part of the mid-battle decisions a character must make. For example, Fiery Aura’s “Rise of the Phoenix” does extreme damage as well as knockback and disorient to enemies around the character and resurrects the character with “about half of [their] Hit Points and Endurance” (according to https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Fiery_Aura). This can (in theory) give the character breathing room to either make a retreat or start reactivating defensive toggles. Compared to Regeneration’s “Revive” which resurrects the character with “most of [their] hit points and half of [their] endurance” (according to https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Regeneration). While this does not provide the breathing room of “Rise of the Phoenix”, Regeneration also has “Moment of Glory” which can be activated immediately afterwards to either retreat or get back into the fight. 

2. From an in-game lore standpoint, I view self-resurrection after defeat as a character drawing on inner strength to get back up again. The character has been defeated, and their endurance to maintain their super powers is depleted. Therefore, I believe it makes sense that they would have to focus to reactivate their powers again. 

3. Regarding teammate resurrection powers, these powers are used by support classes. As such, these classes can support the resurrected character while they retreat or get back into the fight. 

[arcane]

Sorry, I don’t support debt becoming any more trivial than it already has become. It’s a complete joke compared to what it used to be and doesn’t deter defeats in the slightest anymore.

 

I actually prefer to play aggressively and risk defeat than play cautiously because debt is gone in seconds nowadays and if you’re in a team it’s usually safe to pop a wakie/bf/blue and speed away.

Edited July 23, 2021 by arcane

[Glacier Peak]

I think with the added hindsight that arcane touched on, debt isn't really a concern to me. In fact, I have to actively and intentionally attempt to incur anything that doesn't disappear after a mission or two at most. 

 

I kid you not, I once deleted a character back in legacy around Issue 3 I believe, because they had so much debt it made getting to the next level a full time job. 

[Marbing]

Make Debt Great Again!

[Parabola]

Yeah I've suggested this same thing before and for exactly the same reasons you have. It's such a shame that the self rez powers don't get more use. The debt itself is largely irrelevant either way but they still carry a stigma of 'planning to fail'. And of course there is the issue of the defeat counter and master runs etc.

[TheZag]

I think players would be more encouraged to take rez powers and use them if they have some sort of use when nobody is dead.  I couldnt say what exactly it should be,  but the rez in dark has a good debuff attached to it and is usable when nobody is dead.

 

Im actually happy to have skippable powers to open up more possibilities with my builds but i can understand that many players dont like having a 'useless' power as part of their set.

[Ghost]

I’d actually like for debt to not be worked off.  Continue accumulating it, and have it listed as a stat viewable by everyone.

 

 

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’d actually like for debt to not be worked off.  Continue accumulating it, and have it listed as a stat viewable by everyone.

 

 

I’m not sure I like the implication here. Making it viewable by others could make it into some kind of unofficial player rating. You’d have people kicking teammates over this kind of stuff, even though experience doesn’t necessarily equate to not dying. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

23 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m not sure I like the implication here. Making it viewable by others could make it into some kind of unofficial player rating. You’d have people kicking teammates over this kind of stuff, even though experience doesn’t necessarily equate to not dying. 

I'm not sure that this would be a problem as we already have an official player rating system in game.

 

The note system allows you to place stars over peoples' heads that are always viewable. Whenever I fly around Atlas Park a large portion of the people that I see already have stars over their heads because I've taken the time to rate people that I've teamed with.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm not sure that this would be a problem as we already have an official player rating system in game.

 

The note system allows you to place stars over peoples' heads that are always viewable. Whenever I fly around Atlas Park a large portion of the people that I see already have stars over their heads because I've taken the time to rate people that I've teamed with.

Sure, but you only see notes you’ve made yourself. This might create situations where players are judged before you’ve ever played with them.

 

Not that any of this goes beyond hypothetical since the idea of XP debt not getting worked off isn’t exactly functional.

Edited July 23, 2021 by arcane

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Xing said:

Bottom line up front: I suggest that debt be incurred when a character uses the “Transport to hospital” function instead of when they are defeated.

 

Given: 

1. Four of the 13 “defense” sets have self resurrection powers (two of them are tier nine) and eight of the 16 “support” sets have teammate resurrection powers. (I used Scrapper and Defender sets in this example).

2. With the current system of debt being incurred when a character is defeated, being defeated is considered the “fail state”. 

3. Players are therefore building characters with the intention of making defeat something to be avoided at all costs.

4. Players are given a disincentive to select powers designed to resurrect, as resurrecting occurs after the “fail state”. 

 

I believe:

1. No power should be considered a “dud” power. While not every power will work with every build, the game should not be designed to actively discourage any particular power.

2. A Hero (or Villain) doesn’t fail when they get knocked down, they only fail when they don’t get back up again.

 

Therefore I suggest:

The system should be changed so that debt is incurred when a character uses the “Transport to hospital” function instead of when they are defeated.

 

I think:

1. This will encourage more players to take self-resurrection and team-resurrection powers, leading to more mid-battle resurrections. Mid-battle resurrections have the potential to dramatically turn the tide when done properly.

2. This will encourage more players to design for less than “Soft-cap” defenses, leading to more diverse builds.

3. This fits thematically with the lore of CoX. The “Transport to hospital” mechanic is a service that the taxpayers of Paragon City (as well as the patrons of the Rogue Isles, and the dictatorship of Praetoria,) provides to its citizens. The debt should be incurred when the service is used.

 

Some potential issues with this change may be:

1. Resurrection powers, self-resurrection powers, and/or powers affecting defeated allies may become overpowered. Vengeance from the leadership pool and Fallout from the Radiation Emission pool in particular may present challenges.

2. Debt (and therefore debt badges) may become more difficult to accrue.

3. Characters with self-resurrection powers will be able to self-rez with no penalty, theoretically allowing them to steamroll all content with no debt and no trips to the hospital.

 

However I argue:

1. Better is not the enemy of perfect. Powers that need adjusting can be adjusted as the need arises. Defeat powers are designed to be powerful because defeat is uncommon. I do not think defeat will suddenly be everywhere with a rash of characters being built as sacrificial lambs to abuse Vengeance. If there are, balance issues can be addressed as needed.

2. There are still plenty of ways to accrue debt. 

3. Resurrecting does not eliminate the threat that initially defeated the character. If a character is not powerful enough for the game content they are attempting, resurrecting back into the content will not give them an unfair advantage.

 

A note regarding toggles:

I have seen arguments regarding toggles and how they should be handled regarding defeat and resurrection. Some have advocated that toggles should be suppressed instead of detoggled, so that when resurrected the character does not have to reactivate their toggle powers. 

I respectfully disagree. I believe: 

1. From a gameplay standpoint, self-resurrection powers distinguish themselves from each other based upon the secondary effects that come with the power and how the rest of the set works. Choosing whether or not to reactivate the toggles is part of the mid-battle decisions a character must make. For example, Fiery Aura’s “Rise of the Phoenix” does extreme damage as well as knockback and disorient to enemies around the character and resurrects the character with “about half of [their] Hit Points and Endurance” (according to https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Fiery_Aura). This can (in theory) give the character breathing room to either make a retreat or start reactivating defensive toggles. Compared to Regeneration’s “Revive” which resurrects the character with “most of [their] hit points and half of [their] endurance” (according to https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Regeneration). While this does not provide the breathing room of “Rise of the Phoenix”, Regeneration also has “Moment of Glory” which can be activated immediately afterwards to either retreat or get back into the fight. 

2. From an in-game lore standpoint, I view self-resurrection after defeat as a character drawing on inner strength to get back up again. The character has been defeated, and their endurance to maintain their super powers is depleted. Therefore, I believe it makes sense that they would have to focus to reactivate their powers again. 

3. Regarding teammate resurrection powers, these powers are used by support classes. As such, these classes can support the resurrected character while they retreat or get back into the fight. 

I am 100% behind this, I myself use self res powers purely as part of my RP concept builds, and it has always annoyed me that the game does not actually recognize and reward such build choices.  I have seen a great many skip even raise other powers of late because so many seem to just hospital now days or just lay there dead piking because no one will raise.

 

I was on a citadel run last night I joined as I saw a few old friends in it, and I was shocked to noticed my stalker using the day job raise ally power was the only one doing any ally rezzing. The tank trying to be on point ate dirt more then once and the entire party just left him behind, and I had to get him back on his feet every single time that happened during the hour run.

 

Using powers to recover inside missions should be rewarded by no debt, and that is at the very least. avoiding travel time should not be the only reason we take them.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm not sure that this would be a problem as we already have an official player rating system in game.

 

The note system allows you to place stars over peoples' heads that are always viewable. Whenever I fly around Atlas Park a large portion of the people that I see already have stars over their heads because I've taken the time to rate people that I've teamed with.

...I don't know what the hell kind of crazy that other dude is saying, but the crux of @arcane's issue is the proactive part of it: getting booted from parties before being able to prove yourself.

 

We're well aware of gear shaming and such in other games, including booting people from parties because they have some number that's not big enough, or some talent selection that isn't meta enough.  Having this "shame score" following you around would bring nothing good, but opens the door to bring in a considerable amount of bad.

 

--

 

OP idea: I agree with it, have wanted it for years.  It's not about the impact of debt -- it's about a sense of failure, and how many of us skip self-rez powers because we feel like we have failed any time we use it.  Simply having it save you from initial debt is a psychological approach to justifying those powers, instead of "if I'd instead grabbed X, I wouldn't have died in the first place."

 

Edit: sorry, arcane.  I somehow totally missed your last post, which I basically just duplicated and made more verbose.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Replacement

[Replacement]

Alternative take on @Xing's idea that may be easier to implement:

 

Have Rez powers (especially self-rez) remove a portion of Debt on activation, scaled based on character level. 

 

One odd effect this would have: since you can work off debt while dead, this basically means the faster you rez, the more xp goes to your actual XP bar instead of working off debt.

 

More importantly, it means adding a few entries to the power definitions which is likely much easier than finding the mechanism that assigns debt deep in the game engine.

[Razor Cure]

4 hours ago, Parabola said:

It's such a shame that the self rez powers don't get more use.

Cause most of them are shite? Only the fire armour one makes it 'safe' to retoggle/move away. Regen and WP are just crap. Not to mention we can ALL get 2 self rez powers from P2W, and Return to Battle is way better than most.

It would help if those powers were tweaked and improved. Hell, considering how regen is 'meant' to work (like Wolvverine coming back from being literally dead and torn in half etc), the self rez should be an auto power, and trigger on death (maybe only once every 2 mins or something).

Edited July 23, 2021 by Razor Cure

[arcane]

33 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

There is one that dresses up as they claim as a white robed order of the circle of thorns and gather in Perez Park frequently to just stand around with the torch emote. There is another that every member is an AR user and wears a colorful polo shirt, and finally a 3rd SG who every member wears a red baseball cap.

So what? Unless example #1 also uses pointy hoods and little holes for eyes in a convincing way that makes the whole thing look like one garment, I see nothing wrong here.

[Ghost]

I certainly didn’t expect to start an argument with my suggestion.

Just thought it would be fun, and a way to encourage players to be a little more careful.

 

As  for ways to curb hospital visits.  Make it a chore to return from the hospital - perhaps have them awaken in a hospital located in another zone.

 

[Ghost]

Still not sure how debt would equate to a rating system.

if someone sits on a farm and has no debt because they never die, are you trying to tell me they are more valuable then someone who has earned a lot of debt through playing the game?

 

 

[Ghost]

Any minute now….

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ghost! Will you stop getting our threads locked! We're trying to have important conversations here!!!  😁

Edited July 23, 2021 by PeregrineFalcon

[Ghost]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ghost! Will you stop getting our threads locked! We're trying to have important conversations here!!!  😁

I sorry 😞

[GM Impervium]

So, good news/bad news.

Good news is, instead of closing this thread (Sorry, @Ghost!), I simply hid half the posts where people were subtly comparing each other to nazis and arguing semantics.

Bad news is there isn't much thread left, and the next person who tries to Godwin the topic is getting a VERY long time out.

[Ghost]

GM is out of control!

🙂 🙂 

[Bionic_Flea]

But GM Impervium, what about Council, 5th Column, and Axis America?  Can I compare Ghost to a Raserei Ubermenschen Unteroffizier?

[Mezmera]

I'll restate the part I was trying to use as wheeling the thing back to topic.  

 

I'd like to see death penalties to be more meaningful and taking resurrect powers to be more useful as the OP stated.  I appreciate there's so much less grind compared to live, but maybe spitball an idea that would give people pause on rare occasion. 

 

If say in the new harder difficulty HC alluded to that when you're in the LRSF fighting the 8 at the end that the Heroes will get a reverse vengeance buff for each teammate of yours that dies.  Seeing a few dead in that fight on a team of proc'd out blasters with Shivans and Warburg nukes just being able to power through with 4 people dead is not how tough I used to remember this engagement being.  Caution reinstated in that fight would be a good thing.