Buckets of Spoilers! Lore Galore!

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

Though, IIRC, the Apex we see isn't that Apex, but an imposter. (I think one of the badges in the northern islands in Talos references it, as well as ... gah, whatsisname in sharkhead. Dean.)

 

You may be thinking about the imposter Ajax.

 

[Techwright]

Your comments on the Rikti stirred an old, old memory.  I think I remember it because of how bizarre I found the concept at the time.  Whether its accurate (canon) or not I've no idea.

Spoiler

I seem to recall reading that the Rikti are not just descended from humans, their conversion takes place after birth.  In other words, they're born human (live birth? test tube?) and then the conversion process begins.    As I said, the memory is pretty old and I don't even remember if the source was some in-game text or a comment made by a player.  If it's accurate, can anyone point to the source?

 

[Snokle]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

No, that's AJAX you're thinking of.

 

My bad on that. I am wrong about that. I thought there was somewhere else he does show up on aside, from the one mish against Mot.

[Snokle]

Duplicate, ignore.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Dr_Snokle

[TraumaTrain]

Something I learned recently playing through a Moonfire TF and reading all the text. 

 

Council Galaxies (which I wish we had a badge for defeating scads of) are the successful result of merging a nictus fragment with a person. I knew this already.

 

What I didn't know, is that unsuccessful mergings are how war wolves are made.

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, TraumaTrain said:

Something I learned recently playing through a Moonfire TF and reading all the text. 

 

Council Galaxies (which I wish we had a badge for defeating scads of) are the successful result of merging a nictus fragment with a person. I knew this already.

 

What I didn't know, is that unsuccessful mergings are how war wolves are made.

And Nosferatu is the one who created the Vampyri, based on a super soldier program I believe. 

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, TraumaTrain said:

Something I learned recently playing through a Moonfire TF and reading all the text. 

 

Council Galaxies (which I wish we had a badge for defeating scads of) are the successful result of merging a nictus fragment with a person. I knew this already.

 

What I didn't know, is that unsuccessful mergings are how war wolves are made.

Wait, so what about the portal corp War Wolves map? Are they related to that failed experiment or are they part of Shadow Hunters dominion?

[TraumaTrain]

19 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Wait, so what about the portal corp War Wolves map? Are they related to that failed experiment or are they part of Shadow Hunters dominion?

 

I think there is an important distinction between Council war wolves and werewolves.

 

They use the same graphic/avatar. Werewolves might also count for the Silver Bullet, but im not positive on that. But I believe they are different from each other. War wolves are not werewolves, per se.

 

What are they called on that map? Isn't the mission that people refer to as the werewolf dimension?

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by TraumaTrain

[TraumaTrain]

Reading the wiki entry on werewolves, gives me a different idea of what's happening. "Werewolf World" is another dimensional Earth where Requiem succeeded and the place was invaded by nictus... nictuses... nictusi... (Whatever the plural is.) All that's left are werewolves and darkness.

 

So this is some supposition on my part. 

 

I think when a nictus fragment infuses with a host, the usual result is a werewolf, which the Council call war wolves or nightwolves. Arakhn has discovered or engineered a way to create something else... the Galaxies. Going back to the Moonfire TF, successful infusion creates a Galaxy and unsuccessful infusion simply creates the standard thing: a werewolf.

 

(This, of course, is all different from a warshade, which is a full nictus getting with a willing host.)

[Greycat]

13 hours ago, Dr_Snokle said:

Duplicate, ignore.

 

You can't make me! :D

 

Also, with the other discussion, feel like I should include this old link...

[TwoDee]

On 8/4/2021 at 3:40 PM, GraspingVileTerror said:

I'm going to tag @TwoDee as well, since they seem to have a really strong grasp on lots of the lore too.

 

Implicitly*, Shiva is the vanguard of the Battalion (or at least a portent within the timeline) per the Ouroboros introduction arcs.  Since I vaguely recall the A.M.A.s confirming this, I'mma consider that one full canon, personally.

 

I'll confess the Space Alien stuff has always been a weakness of mine, but yes, Word of God was that Shiva were a forerunner to the Battalion.  You also get hints in Drowning in Blood that the Shivans are, themselves, Battalion refugees.

[Techwright]

5 hours ago, TwoDee said:

 

I'll confess the Space Alien stuff has always been a weakness of mine, but yes, Word of God was that Shiva were a forerunner to the Battalion.  You also get hints in Drowning in Blood that the Shivans are, themselves, Battalion refugees.

Wait...how does that work?  Are the Shivan "forerunners" in the sense that they are advanced scouts and under the control of the Battalion?  Or are the Shivan "forerunners" because they're fleeing from the Battalion and raiding anything in their path of flight (presumably for resources and such)?

[TwoDee]

10 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Wait...how does that work?  Are the Shivan "forerunners" in the sense that they are advanced scouts and under the control of the Battalion?  Or are the Shivan "forerunners" because they're fleeing from the Battalion and raiding anything in their path of flight (presumably for resources and such)?

 

In Drowning in Blood, the player has the opportunity to rescue a Shivan from the Circle of Thorns.  This is the dialogue:

 

Quote

Briefing

You have spoken with one of us, so you have spoken with all of us... That encounter has given us great hope... What may I do for you...?

• I have a few questions.

• Tell me of this Mother.

The great Mother flies through the Heavens and we were her children. . . We were forced from her and left to die here, though die we did not. . . We have grown different during our time here. . . Because of that difference grown within us, we can no longer hear her song but it does not matter. . . Because she has wed the Dark Father she sings no longer. . .

• Tell me of this 'Dark Father'.

"He is greedy and gluttonous and has chased our Mother across the Heavens since time immemorial. . . Now She is His and we are orphaned. . . We hate him for all he has done and for all he has yet to do. . . Now that Mother has been made one of His brides, he turns his attention to the Blue Maiden. . .

• 'Blue Maiden'? You mean Earth?

We do not know who or what she is. . . We heard her name hissing on the thoughts of our brothers as they came to slaughter us. . .

• What was the Circle of Thorns doing to you?

They sought to poison us with their magic. . . Being free of will and thought we were vulnerable to the call of their Leash. . .

• That's all.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by TwoDee
omitted a word

[TraumaTrain]

Is the statue of Atlas in Atlas Park supposed to be life size?

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think it was implied to be, yes.  Can't think of anything explicitly stating so, though.  Maybe it was something from an A.M.A.?

[TraumaTrain]

A couple of the Pupil plaques make me think the statue is actually smaller than life size.

[TombTyrant]

It isn't a statue, he's just holding that badge up for us.

[Darmian]

I like to think that Blue Steel's shield is actually Atlas' old police uniform badge, LOL.

[Crasical]

Here's the deal with Croatoa: 

 

Wayback in the Wayback, (Somewhere between Prehistory and the 1st century, we'll say) in ancient mythic Ireland the ancient tribes of the Fir Bolg, the natives of the island, did battle with the invading Tuatha de Dannan. This battle was long, vicious, and bloody, which absolutely delighted the native Irish fey, the Redcaps. The Fir Bolg eventually lost, and fled across the ocean. The Redcaps, annoyed that the fun was over, decided to kidnap a contingent of the Tuatha to chase down the Fir Bolg. 

 

Fast forward to 1588, America, Roanoke Colony. The Fir Bolg stumble out of the woods, exhausted and hungry. (Questions about the distance traveled and the many years intervening can be answered with 'The Redcaps did it'. Malicious fey are malicious.) The colonists, of course, happily provide the strangers with food and rest. 

 

Cue the redcaps showing up with their attack dogs, the Tuatha. They rip the whole Roanoke colony into 'The Spirit World', the fey realms, whatever you wanna call it, and proceed to massacre the colony. All the males killed, the women and Firbolgs sent running through the spirit world. They spend the next 400 years torturing and tormenting the firbolg and the women of Roanoke, The Roanoke women eventually take up spellcasting, learning magic to help them survive in the spirit realm (arcadia, fey realms). It's not clear if the Firbolg and Tuatha were transformed into monsters by the redcaps during this period, or later? I'd assumed that the Firbolg at least had human forms up until the Roanoke colony is disappeared, it kind of stretches my suspension of disbelief that the colonists would have taken pity on a tribe of giant pumpkin scarecrows.

 

400+ years pass, setting to modern time. Paragon City is a nexus for powerful magic, and it attracts the Redcap's attention. They nab some Fir Bolgs (possibly transforming them now, this is the last point this could happen, chronologically) and shove them through doorways into Paragon city, and delight as the heroes hunt them down as monsters. This makes them so happy they decide they want to have some more fun: Dragging Salamanca into the spirit realm where they can have more carnage and suffering.

 

This sets up the zone as we see it: The Fir Bolg and Cabal are conspiring together to try and put together a genocide spell to delete the Redcaps entirely, the Tuatha are being tormented and used as attack dogs by the Redcaps, the spirits are just confused and terrified ghosts of Salamanca humans, and heroes are caught up in it. 

[Darmian]

2 hours ago, Crasical said:

Wayback in the Wayback, (Somewhere between Prehistory and the 1st century, we'll say) in ancient mythic Ireland the ancient tribes of the Fir Bolg, the natives of the island, did battle with the invading Tuatha de Dannan. This battle was long, vicious, and bloody, which absolutely delighted the native Irish fey, the Redcaps. The Fir Bolg eventually lost, and fled across the ocean. The Redcaps, annoyed that the fun was over, decided to kidnap a contingent of the Tuatha to chase down the Fir Bolg. 

"Native Irish fey", SIGH BLOODY SIGH. So much native fae to to choose from and the OG Devs pick one that's from Scotland. Nothing wrong with that, but at least effing try to put it all together.*

 

*Not a poke at @Crasical.  Croatoa exercises me somewhat in its godawful could-have-been-great-but-we-got-bored/lazy approach.

[A Cat]

I've always really liked Croatoa personally but then again I'm not Irish. 

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, A Cat said:

I've always really liked Croatoa personally but then again I'm not Irish. 

I am.  I mostly get by Croatoa by handwaving it as "Hallowe'en Town", with all that that entails. But it could have been BETTER. (I mean the Tuatha of the myths are basically Gods. The vast majority of which - I am struggling to think which of them isn't - are beautiful beyond human scale. And we get whatever those things are. The Fir Bolg are even worse.)

 

 

[A Cat]

27 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I am.  I mostly get by Croatoa by handwaving it as "Hallowe'en Town", with all that that entails. But it could have been BETTER. (I mean the Tuatha of the myths are basically Gods. The vast majority of which - I am struggling to think which of them isn't - are beautiful beyond human scale. And we get whatever those things are. The Fir Bolg are even worse.)

 

 

Did it ever explain why the Fir Bolg and Tuatha are monsters and not humans? Is it all a red cap trick?

[Darmian]

Just now, A Cat said:

Did it ever explain why the Fir Bolg and Tuatha are monsters and not humans? Is it all a red cap trick?

Possibly.  It's been a while since I deep dove into the background on that.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

I am.  I mostly get by Croatoa by handwaving it as "Hallowe'en Town", with all that that entails. But it could have been BETTER. (I mean the Tuatha of the myths are basically Gods. The vast majority of which - I am struggling to think which of them isn't - are beautiful beyond human scale. And we get whatever those things are. The Fir Bolg are even worse.)

This. As an Irish man with an interest in mythology I just tend to ignore any nod toward Gaelic mythology and assume "Generic Halloween Town" as well.