Nerf Level Shifts

[ZacKing]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

On another note, this whole “as long as the player technically has a choice to not be overpowered, all overpowered-ness is ok and good” argument is bizarre. Like that’s ever been how game design works...

 

No more bizarre than crying about feeling overpowered running as an incarnate doing content that wasn't designed for or balanced around them.  This is like complaining about being level 50 and getting no challenge from fighting Hellions in Atlas.  should be advocating for more level 50+ stuff to do, not nerfing stuff for everyone else because you don't like it.

[Apparition]

I am okie with the first suggestion.  Not so much the second.  Dark Astoria *is* Incarnate content.  Therefore, Incarnate level shifts should apply there, and was indeed designed for Incarnate level shifts to be applied there.  People keep mentioning that it being boring with teams, but uh... newsflash.  Dark Astoria wasn't designed for teams.  It was designed to be a solo Incarnate experience.  If you want to team for Incarnate content, Tinpex and Incarnate Trials are ----> that way.

 

Also, removing Incarnate level shifts from Dark Astoria would mean one less zone to form Incarnate trials in, as you would no longer be able to easily see what Incarnate level shifts people have.  Removing it would leave Pocket D and Ouroboros... both of which are less than ideal, IMO.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Apparition

[Miss Magical]

I'm not sure why level shifts were even allowed to work outside of incarnate trials in the first place.

 

With IO sets, or even incarnate powers, there is usually a little thought as to which one works best for your playstyle or powersets and some kind of tradeoff involved. With the level shift, which buffs everything by a huge amount, I'm left wondering how exactly this adds to the gameplay experience.

 

Their huge power has far-reaching effects for game balance and the "just don't use it" argument falls flat on its face since there is very strong incentive to use them. If I want to play on a level-shift-less team I have to put up with longer recruiting times, manually check each player, hope they don't equip one out of combat and handle the resultant MMO drama if someone does and I need to deal with it. That's why some people are even leveling characters to 44 and turning off exp there, just to ensure a level-shift-less experience. The reward for this hassle is a lower reward rate (due to slower killing speed) simply because I choose to enjoy the game differently.

 

Level shifts outside of incarnate trials should never have been implemented because they negatively impact the gameplay of a significant minority of players without any benefit to the majority that cannot be accomplished in a more equitable way.

 

Yes, I said no benefit.

• If the content is too hard without the level shift, the player can reduce the difficulty.
• If rewards are too low without the level shift, either because you reduced the difficulty or your kill speed has been decreased, the developers can buff reward rates globally.

Level shifts outside of incarnate content serve no purpose.

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, Miss Magical said:

I'm not sure why level shifts were even allowed to work outside of incarnate trials in the first place.

 

 

The original reasoning was to show that you were on your path to godhood now, so all this level 50 stuff before Incarnate content is a bit beneath you now.  On top of that, from what I hear NCSoft executives pressured Paragon Studios to allowing Incarnate abilities beyond the Alpha to work outside of Incarnate content in order to sell Going Rogue expansion boxes and subscriptions.  "Look how cool Johnny is, using that Ion Judgment to destroy all those Fifth Column in the Dr. Kahn TF!  I must have that.  I'll go buy the Going Rogue expansion right now!"

 

Paragon Studios' intention was to keep ever adding Incarnate content, and ever adding Incarnate abilities and level shifts.  They believed that once they reached a certain point of Incarnate content, that people would just stop running the pre-Incarnate content.  Unfortunately, NCSoft pulled the rug out from underneath them and here we are.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Apparition

[TheZag]

I like being a super hero.  Lets all raise a torch for the first super hero killed in this game...

 

..../regen

 

We honor your sacrifice.  May no hero ever be forced into sidekick-dom ever again.

[Apparition]

I actually hope that if there ever is another Incarnate zone added to the game, all Incarnate level shifts are allowed so there'd be another zone as an option to form Incarnate trials in.  I strongly dislike using Ouroboros for Incarnate trials, (it's a small zone and gets crowded too easily, and too many people just stay at the entrance, making it a pain in the rear to use the portal).  Some people don't like Pocket D, and I hear that it isn't really an option on the Everlasting shard.  Others find Dark Astoria "too gloomy."  Right now, Dark Astoria is the best of the three, IMO.  It gives people who get quickly bored while iTrials are forming an outlet to beat mobs up.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Apparition

[arcane]

39 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

No more bizarre than crying about feeling overpowered running as an incarnate doing content that wasn't designed for or balanced around them.  This is like complaining about being level 50 and getting no challenge from fighting Hellions in Atlas.  should be advocating for more level 50+ stuff to do, not nerfing stuff for everyone else because you don't like it.

If the analogy were a good one and Hellions actually gave worthwhile rewards to level 50’s, that would indeed be a problem worth asking the devs to reconsider.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Some people don't like Pocket D, and I hear that it isn't really an option on the Everlasting shard. 

The way players talk about Everlasting Pocket D on the forum, it does sound like it’s overrun with furries, yes 🙂

[Coyotedancer]

The furries are the least of your worries in there....

[ZacKing]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

If the analogy were a good one and Hellions actually gave worthwhile rewards to level 50’s, that would indeed be a problem worth asking the devs to reconsider.

 

Wasn't talking about rewards.  it's about crying about feeling overpowered doing content that was never designed for that power level.  if you don't want to play using incarnates, don't.  unslot incarnates, set your TF settings to buffed enemies and whatever other settings you want and go have fun.  Let others play how they like.  

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by ZacKing

[Uun]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Incarnate Shifts (from the Lore and Destiny slots) should ONLY function in Incarnate Trials and should be non-functional in TinPex and DA and regular content.

This is already the case with respect to TinPex and regular content. Only the Alpha slot level shift applies.

 

I would support disabling the Lore and Destiny level shifts in DA story arcs. While the DA story arcs are incarnate content, they don't contain the level-shifted foes that the Incarnate trials do. I enjoy the DA arcs and want access to the Destiny powers while running them (I suppose I could unslot Lore, but it's a bother), but would like to face foes that are higher than +1 to me.

[Uun]

Double post

Edited September 30, 2021 by Uun
Double post

[skoryy]

42 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Paragon Studios' intention was to keep ever adding Incarnate content, and ever adding Incarnate abilities and level shifts.  They believed that once they reached a certain point of Incarnate content, that people would just stop running the pre-Incarnate content.

 

The solution isn't nerfing anything, step one is cranking out +5 to +7 incarnate content.  

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Wasn't talking about rewards.  it's about crying about feeling overpowered doing content that was never designed for that power level.  if you don't want to play using incarnates, don't.  unslot incarnates, set your TF settings to buffed enemies and whatever other settings you want and go have fun.  Let others play how they like.  

 

If it wasn’t designed to be used in that content, why would you have any problem with it... no longer being used in that content?? You’re kind of arguing for this change here.

Edited September 30, 2021 by arcane

[InvaderStych]

9 minutes ago, Uun said:

I would support disabling the Lore and Destiny level shifts in DA story arcs. While the DA story arcs are incarnate content, they don't contain the level-shifted foes that the Incarnate trials do. I enjoy the DA arcs and want access to the Destiny powers while running them (I suppose I could unslot Lore, but it's a bother), but would like to face foes that are higher than +1 to me.

 

Conversely, I would rather they just up the difficulty of Dark Astoria.  Tech exists to give mobs their own level shifts, why not start there?  There shouldn't be anything in that zone below 54 for starters - mission difficulty at +0 starts at 54.  +4/xX nets you 54(+4)'s, and likewise for everything between.

 

Also, as evidenced in Graveyard Shift, and the 801 AE Challenge series, there are more ways to increase difficulty than just level differential.  Were it not for lack of resources, wide swaths of the game could use a "difficulty pass" introducing "new tricks" to "old arcs."

 

Here's another unpopular opinion:

 

If your (not directed at anyone in particular, just a turn of phrase) level-shifted T4'd everything IO'd out Super Hero is getting bored steam-rolling Council missions on the police radio, ask yourself this: Why is said Super Hero wasting their Demi-God level powers on Street Crime? 

 

😉

Edited September 30, 2021 by InvaderStych
typo and another thought

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

If your level-shifted T4'd everything IO'd out Super Hero is getting bored steam-rolling Council missions on the police radio, ask yourself this: Why is said Super Hero wasting their Demi-God level powers on Street Crime?  😉

Again, games are not designed this way. When something is overpowered, developers don’t respond with, “well clearly all players will gimp themselves or avoid efficient and lucrative content in order to keep something overpowered from existing”. That’s just not reality.

 

Not that radio missions are something I would do. TF’s are easy enough and not over in 5 minutes.

Edited September 30, 2021 by arcane

[Uun]

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Conversely, I would rather they just up the difficulty of Dark Astoria.  Tech exists to give mobs their own level shifts, why not start there?  There shouldn't be anything in that zone below 54 for starters - mission difficulty at +0 starts at 54.  +4/xX nets you 54(+4)'s, and likewise for everything between.

Fine with me

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

If your level-shifted T4'd everything IO'd out Super Hero is getting bored steam-rolling Council missions on the police radio, ask yourself this: Why is said Super Hero wasting their Demi-God level powers on Street Crime?  😉

I don't run radio missions. Ever.

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

The solution isn't nerfing anything, step one is cranking out +5 to +7 incarnate content.  

 

 

Which do you suppose would be easier for a small all-volunteer development team working on their free time?

[InvaderStych]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s just not reality.

 

Also not what I meant.  Play the harder stuff with the stronger toons; there's no real reason to run a fully kitted out incarnate on everyday stuff.  But maybe that's because I play those while leveling something.

 

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

I don't run radio missions. Ever.

 

Sorry, was meant to be a generalization, not directed.

 

Edited, too late, to reflect.

 

Another Edit:

 

Isn't there a mechanic in one of the iTrials that disables various iPowers?  If I am not misguided, could that not be selectively employed to various TFs?  I'm all for making the game harder, but a blanket "We're Gonna Disable A Bunch Of Toys Game-Wide" isn't going to be very popular.  There are likely more desirable ways for us all to get what we want - content that breaks our strongest toons. 😉

Edited September 30, 2021 by InvaderStych

[ZacKing]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

If it wasn’t designed to be used in that content, why would you have any problem with it... no longer being used in that content?? You’re kind of arguing for this change here.

 

LOL!  Nice try, not arguing for this change at all.  I'm not that anal about how others should or shouldn't be playing.   I don't mind incarnate stuff being used in this content to be honest.  Scroll up and read what @Apparition posted,  it was all part of the Paragon plan.  again, advocate for more stuff to do at incarnate level instead of nerfing everyone.

Edited September 30, 2021 by ZacKing

[ZacKing]

10 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Which do you suppose would be easier for a small all-volunteer development team working on their free time?

 

which do you suppose is going to expand the game - which they say they want to do - and which one isn't?  

[Coyotedancer]

13 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Conversely, I would rather they just up the difficulty of Dark Astoria.  Tech exists to give mobs their own level shifts, why not start there?  There shouldn't be anything in that zone below 54 for starters - mission difficulty at +0 starts at 54.  +4/xX nets you 54(+4)'s, and likewise for everything between.

 

 

That would hinder DA's purpose. The place isn't entirely 54+ because it was designed to be the non Trial-Centric way to unlock and build Incarnate powers. The design assumption is that people are going in there and starting those arcs with, at best, an Alpha unlocked. (And yes, some of us actually DO still use it for that intended purpose, It's not all fully-kitted 50+3s power-leveling their friends running around out there.  Hard to believe, I know. 😝)

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

That would hinder DA's purpose. The place isn't entirely 54+ because it was designed to be the non Trial-Centric way to unlock and build Incarnate powers. The design assumption is that people are going in there and starting those arcs with, at best, an Alpha unlocked. (And yes, some of us actually DO still use it for that intended purpose, It's not all fully-kitted 50+3s power-leveling their friends running around out there.  Hard to believe, I know. 😝)

 

 

A lot of people either don't seem to know Dark Astoria's purpose, or lost sight of it.  It was designed to be baby's solo-friendly first exposure to Incarnate content and way to slowly unlock and build Incarnate powers for those who didn't have the time or were unwilling to join Incarnate trials.  It was not designed for full teams.  It was not designed for level 50+3 Incarnates.  It was intentionally designed to get easier as you progress and shuffle you off to Incarnate trials when done to use your new Incarnate power.

[Marbing]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

A lot of people either don't seem to know Dark Astoria's purpose, or lost sight of it.  It was designed to be baby's solo-friendly first exposure to Incarnate content and way to slowly unlock and build Incarnate powers for those who didn't have the time or were unwilling to join Incarnate trials.  It was not designed for full teams.  It was not designed for level 50+3 Incarnates.  It was intentionally designed to get easier as you progress and shuffle you off to Incarnate trials when done to use your new Incarnate power.

This ^ is why the answer is to add more incarnate content. AT MOST I could get behind slowing down the process for going from 50+0 to 50+3, via upping the requirements per Tier or reducing the amount of threads you get naturally through regular content. But, again, that would be AT MOST and even then I can't say I would be entirely for the idea. 

The single biggest problem with incarnates is the lack of challenging content once you have them.

[Luminara]

Issue 28 fascist patch notes:

 

• Inspirations, which are at least 10,000 times more detrimental to the gaming experience than gaining one level, and are all but unconstrained in usage, have been removed.
• All enhancements provide a "very strong incentive to use them", and players shouldn't have to choose not to use them, or to use SOs instead of IOs, or to use common IOs instead of set IOs, or any other variation thereof, so they have been removed.
• Teaming has been redesigned.  Teams now consist of one General and seven expendable troops.  Failure to be on a team at any point after logging in will result in permanent deletion of the character.  Any team with fewer than eight characters will be penalized.
• Archetypes, and all corresponding powers, have been removed.  All characters will now have access only to Brawl and Rest.  Sprint is still in the game, but it's only usable by Generals.  Expendable troops can't be permitted to run.
• Individuality was creating discord amongst players, so all costumes will now consist of a black shirt and tan slacks.  You may recolor the shirt to black, black or black.  The pants will remain tan.
• All missions, story arcs, *Fs, trials and other content not specifically listed has been converted to Personal Missions.
• You may move your character in Personal Missions.
• Enjoy the game.  But not too much, or we'll send the politzei to your house and have them beat you with a sack of cancer-riddled dicks.
• Oh, we left the level shifts active.  There's no point being a fascist asshole if you can't backstab your own supporters, after all.