MASSIVELY: Has Homecoming torched the plans of City of Heroes successors?

[Clave Dark 5]

On 10/23/2021 at 9:17 PM, drbuzzard said:

CoT is the poster child for vaporware. 

I guess I could go over there and buy a t-shirt for the poster child for vaporware though, that'd be fun.  How obscure a t-shirt would that be?  None, none more obscure.

[Optimum_Man]

5 hours ago, UpandAtom said:

superhero mmos are bizarrely underrepresented for how the market for superheroes exploded

I read somewhere the real problem is Intellectual Property claims that Disney and DC/Marvel will throw out at you, and that's probably the real problem devs hit

I mean the real problem with the whole suit between Marvel and Cryptic back in the day was the TOS for CoH that basically said anything you created was their intellectual property. So that created cases of where you could make The Hulk or Wolverine and legally speaking Cryptic would be in a pickle because they’re claiming they own The Hulk or whatever else you made. I always thought if they threw that out they’d be fine. But no they had to legally own all of our characters.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I'm trying to track down a website with a copy of the old Service Agreement, @Optimum_Man, but as I recall, what was remarkable about City of Heroes is that it specifically did -not- claim ownership of players' user content.  "Just" an unlimited license to reproduce said content for the purposes of advertising, and a clause that if the user attempted to pass off someone else's intellectual property as their own, then penalties would apply.

 

But it's been a while and my memory could be hazy.  Hence my attempts to track down a copy of the old agreement right now.

[GraspingVileTerror]

And in my search, I found this old gem!

https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/5/2/4271302/city-of-heroes-community-phoenix-project

[PeregrineFalcon]

15 hours ago, UpandAtom said:

superhero mmos are bizarrely underrepresented for how the market for superheroes exploded

You know, I remember Lighthouse and Ex Libris talking in the forums about marketing and advertising for City of Heroes. I said "you know, there's a really popular TV show running right now about super heroes. Maybe run a commercial during that time slot?" One of them responded with a bunch of eyewash about demographics and, needless to say there was no CoH TV commercial.

 

Awhile later Ex Libris announced the official City of Heroes MySpace page. Anyone remember MySpace? Yeah? We'd forgotten about it too. Facebook was the one getting all of the traffic even back then.

 

It was almost like NCSoft didn't want anyone to know that City of Heroes even existed. Which I never understood. You spent millions of dollars on it, why not at least try to make some of that money back?

[Optimum_Man]

14 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I'm trying to track down a website with a copy of the old Service Agreement, @Optimum_Man, but as I recall, what was remarkable about City of Heroes is that it specifically did -not- claim ownership of players' user content.  "Just" an unlimited license to reproduce said content for the purposes of advertising, and a clause that if the user attempted to pass off someone else's intellectual property as their own, then penalties would apply.

 

But it's been a while and my memory could be hazy.  Hence my attempts to track down a copy of the old agreement right now.

I had a friend who was experiencing legal issues trying to license his CoH character because of the ToS. As far as I know I don’t think he was ever able to overcome them. If you do find the old ToS let me know.

[Optimum_Man]

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You know, I remember Lighthouse and Ex Libris talking in the forums about marketing and advertising for City of Heroes. I said "you know, there's a really popular TV show running right now about super heroes. Maybe run a commercial during that time slot?" One of them responded with a bunch of eyewash about demographics and, needless to say there was no CoH TV commercial.

 

Awhile later Ex Libris announced the official City of Heroes MySpace page. Anyone remember MySpace? Yeah? We'd forgotten about it too. Facebook was the one getting all of the traffic even back then.

 

It was almost like NCSoft didn't want anyone to know that City of Heroes even existed. Which I never understood. You spent millions of dollars on it, why not at least try to make some of that money back?

There was a weird cliquey atmosphere between some of the devs and some people. Sometimes it really did seem like they they REALLY didn’t like new players. I’m not surprised they had very little interest in expanding the playerbase. Like for all their rep for listening to the community, they sometimes we’re very rude when people would suggest things. Like I remember being one of many people that suggested a system like Going Rogue, and I also remember being told that it would NEVER happen.

[mcdoogss]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:17 PM, drbuzzard said:

 

CoT is the poster child for vaporware. 

more so than Star Citizen?

[GraspingVileTerror]

Star Citizen could release right now, and they'd have a game.

It would be a game that doesn't deliver on a fraction of the promises they've made over the years, but it would be a game.

[Optimum_Man]

3 hours ago, mcdoogss said:

more so than Star Citizen?

 

2 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Star Citizen could release right now, and they'd have a game.

It would be a game that doesn't deliver on a fraction of the promises they've made over the years, but it would be a game.

This. I have spoken with people who are following the project closely and there does appear to be a decent alpha together. They still have a long way to go, but they have an actual product assembled. Mostly anyway.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Optimum_Man

[mcdoogss]

18 hours ago, Optimum_Man said:

 

This. I have spoken with people who are following the project closely and there does appear to be a decent alpha together. They still have a long way to go, but they have an actual product assembled. Mostly anyway.

interesting.  They have raised like $350M or more to date now, so it feels like if its not vaporware its at least a scam to not have a fully production game by now.

[Ironblade]

22 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Star Citizen could release right now, and they'd have a game.

With decent integration of the various elements.  I did a mission with my brother where we flew to the mission site in his ship, engaging fighters en route with me in the turret, then we exited the ship and entered a complex and engaged the enemies with assault rifles and grenades.  Plenty of aspects are still 'clunky', but I've played worse games that were 'officially released'.

[Optimum_Man]

3 hours ago, mcdoogss said:

interesting.  They have raised like $350M or more to date now, so it feels like if its not vaporware its at least a scam to not have a fully production game by now.

It has one of the largest “budgets” of any game ever released. I mean for the money spent they have not done 1/8th of what an actually studio could have done with that money. They definitely promised big and won’t deliver. But they didn’t do it intentionally, they took on a project they were simply not prepared for. This is why I think games shouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. The completion rate for these projects feels damn near zero.

[Crysis]

On 10/25/2021 at 1:48 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

I guess I could go over there and buy a t-shirt for the poster child for vaporware though, that'd be fun.  How obscure a t-shirt would that be?  None, none more obscure.

Given their reputation, you may find yourself wearing nothing at all and yet believing you got yourself a cool t-shirt.

[Crysis]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:25 AM, Krimson said:

Two pages and I had to actively Google to find the one whose name I forgot: Valiance Online. 

I’m surprised there wasn’t more mention of GG’s blog-as-product idea called “Heroes and Villains.”  I read a few of GG’s updates over the years.  It actually made me wonder if I was reading delusional ramblings of an unwell person or a real “game designers blog.”  I’m still not sure.  Last update was Jan of 2021.

[tidge]

City of Titans: I joined the (original) Kickstarter at one of the higher levels. I ought to qualify for something (if they even honor those original backers).

• The 'lore' fanfic quickly bored me, such that I skip over almost all update emails
• I never bothered to install whatever it is they off right now. Costume creator? Flight simulator?

Ship of Heroes: I thought they had the most creative solution for "War Walls" (zone limits), which would let them add new content as desired. Making "the Lore" be entirely distinct from "real comic universe brah" was smart.

 

I feel that the City of X team lost its way when trying to 'modify the (game) universe' rather than simply adding new content and power sets. I don't care one whit about NPC so-and-so's life story... I want to play my characters life stories.

[mcdoogss]

9 hours ago, Optimum_Man said:

It has one of the largest “budgets” of any game ever released. I mean for the money spent they have not done 1/8th of what an actually studio could have done with that money. They definitely promised big and won’t deliver. But they didn’t do it intentionally, they took on a project they were simply not prepared for. This is why I think games shouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. The completion rate for these projects feels damn near zero.

 

The crowd funding thing is sketchy in general, but especially for things like video games and movies.  There are no real consequences for taking crowd funded money and producing nothing, and if you actually pull off the unlikely and create a viable, marketable product the public 'angel investors' get nothing.  Basically, it's socialized risk for privatized reward, and that's shady territory full of grifters with good sales pitches.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Crysis said:

I’m surprised there wasn’t more mention of GG’s blog-as-product idea called “Heroes and Villains.”  I read a few of GG’s updates over the years.  It actually made me wonder if I was reading delusional ramblings of an unwell person or a real “game designers blog.”  I’m still not sure.  Last update was Jan of 2021.

 

I'm pretty sure we're ALL sure which it was.

[Marine X]

I believe that a lot of people get bored and impatient pretty quickly with anything, whether it be a Game or Anything else. With the Kickstarter Games mentioned in OPs post, they have really about lost all the patience anyone had for how long it was going take to create, probably including themselves. I don't think that CoX being up and running will have much effect on their success or failure, we are a pretty small community, and they were once part of it, so I wish them Luck. Just remember how every body and their brother did a server pile-on back in April and May of 2019 to the point they had to keep adding shards, then by June or July the crisis was over and the population went to about where it is now, as far as active players, people got bored, and off they went. I have been seeing a lot of new, and I mean NEW inexperienced players on lately, not a bad thing, it would be nice to see this go on for the foreseeable future. Still have lots to do. 

 

On the other part of this 4 Page discussion is SCoRE.

I recently got my private i24 OuroDev server running, went with their Self Installing Version, piece of Cake, then I logged in, wow, I mean wow. Pretty harsh without all the SCoRE installed improvements, Prestige Free Bases, Artificial Market Seeding, PTW, More Costume options, More Power sets and also all the adds that the Homecoming team have made. I'm spoiled I guess, but I appreciate what both groups have done to enhance and expand CoH, and didn't realize how much until logging into my own CoH server with all their hard work missing. I may have to wade through the i25 manual install after all.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Marine X

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Marine X said:

i24 OuroDev server running

 

Any chance HC can be patched on to this? Or copy the stand-alone installer for i24? Course, that would also mean they'd have to keep an updated installer as they patch here and that's a pretty big ask.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[gamingglen]

4 hours ago, mcdoogss said:

 

The crowd funding thing is sketchy in general, but especially for things like video games and movies.  There are no real consequences for taking crowd funded money and producing nothing, and if you actually pull off the unlikely and create a viable, marketable product the public 'angel investors' get nothing.  Basically, it's socialized risk for privatized reward, and that's shady territory full of grifters with good sales pitches.

 

 

I don't know the percentage of success, but from my game-store-owning perspective Kickstarter is a boon to board games and role-playing games (although I have reservations about RPGs but that has nothing to do with KS). The production quality has much improved since the days of cardboard counters, although the graphics on those had increased dramatically before KS. And RPG books look much better, but that might be in part to people paying attention to layout. You should have seen some cheap RPGs printed with dot matrix printers back in the 90s. *shudder* 

[CloudMouse]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:43 PM, Optimum_Man said:

So I’ve always gotten this feeling, but is there anyone who can clarify exactly why though? Like I’m 100% with you on this. But I don’t have the detailed reasoning.

CoT has an active volunteer dev team with an active avatar creator and test map zone and regularly release updates on content progress, testing and dev team activity. 

[Without_Pause]

12 minutes ago, CloudMouse said:

CoT has an active volunteer dev team with an active avatar creator and test map zone and regularly release updates on content progress, testing and dev team activity. 

Which still doesn't mean much. I feel like videos they have shared across the years really haven't advanced. While a mission was shown early, 2015, there really hasn't been advancements in that direction. and that far more than a hero creator should be the focus. 

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, CloudMouse said:

CoT has an active volunteer dev team with an active avatar creator and test map zone and regularly release updates on content progress, testing and dev team activity. 

An avatar creator's easy (relatively).
It's just building out from the Unreal Engine's pre-existing tools.

Zooming through a bare test zone isn't particularly noteworthy.

Writing content isn't impressive either.  Because they haven't actually implemented a mission building system.

Again, this has been going on 8 years.  Through several versions of the Unreal Engine.

The main drag is they've had to teach themselves EVERYTHING, from "You've installed the software.  GO!"

At this rate, we MIGHT see an early Alpha release some time in the mid 2030's.

[Without_Pause]

32 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

At this rate, we MIGHT see an early Alpha release some time in the mid 2030's.

Which also means dealing with multiple generations of the Unreal engine. I believe they did one upgrade. What happens if they decide to do more?