Focused Feedback: Changes to Sleep and Placate

[Kai Moon]

For Mass Hypnosis and Spore Burst, adding "This power automatically hits most targets." should be a good enough clue. I asked around, nobody knew what "raid target" means, so better leave that detail out. "Most targets" vagueness also leaves the door open if PvPers complain and force a change.

 

For the other sleep powers, "This power's sleep effect automatically hits most targets." maybe?

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Kai Moon said:

For Mass Hypnosis and Spore Burst, adding "This power automatically hits most targets." should be a good enough clue. I asked around, nobody knew what "raid target" means, so better leave that detail out. "Most targets" vagueness also leaves the door open if PvPers complain and force a change.

 

For the other sleep powers, "This power's sleep effect automatically hits most targets." maybe?

I thought you were talking about the Description, not the Detailed Info. Did I get that right? I'm confused, sorry!

 

Which spot? Also, it is just the sleep portion that would be auto, not the procs that could be added to the power. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Kai Moon]

Detailed info might be kind of hard to edit. I meant adding info to the description for autohit sleep powers. "automatically hits most" should provide enough context to make sense of otherwise contradictory messages (acc slotting, Hit Rolls "autohit" messages, etc).

 

Something like:

 

Quote

Mass Hypnosis

Hypnotizes a group of foes at a distance puts them to Sleep. The targets will remain asleep for some time, but will awaken if attacked. This power deals no damage, but if done discreetly, the targets will never be aware of your presence. This power automatically hits most targets.

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Kai Moon

[Wavicle]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:42 AM, tidge said:

the Presence Pool's Provoke is not auto-hit

 

Is this still true? I vaguely recall this getting changed at some point (for PvE).

[Wavicle]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:50 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Eventually some NPC buffs like Nemesis Vengeance will also be purgeable via applying a sleep on buffed entities.

 

OMG

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

OMG

 

Right?  

 

He laid out the plan and I saw what the intent of auto hit sleep powers to negate things like this and was like "okay let me shut on up".  But then my next thought was "We implementing that veng negation yesterday then?".  

 

The control sets could use some tinkering here and there sometime soon but that plan should just about cover sleeps. 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Mezmera said:

 

Right?  

 

He laid out the plan and I saw what the intent of auto hit sleep powers to negate things like this and was like "okay let me shut on up".  But then my next thought was "We implementing that veng negation yesterday then?".  

 

The control sets could use some tinkering here and there sometime soon but that plan should just about cover sleeps. 

Yeah sleeps will be actual DE-buffs, or if you like ANTI-buffs. That’s mighty and is a BIG boost to CC, and yes, let’s hope an indication of possible directions to go with fixes for Mind Control, Force Fields, and more.

[Mezmera]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yeah sleeps will be actual DE-buffs, or if you like ANTI-buffs. That’s mighty and is a BIG boost to CC, and yes, let’s hope an indication of possible directions to go with fixes for Mind Control, Force Fields, and more.

 

Mind is quite good on doms but yes on controllers its a bit different.  They'll have to account for some of the power difference between the two ATs without overtuning it for doms.  A tweak here and there on doms and likely some more ideas for controllers but it might just have to be that its plain better on doms.  

 

But other controls being underperforming sure.  You take away that exploit in bonfire and fire control likely underperforms, or ice control getting a buff.  Then yes support things like Force Fields.  

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

OMG

Sorry folks but that idea has been scrapped. After some discussions and considerations it was just not viable. The sleeps still will be extremely effective for killing toggles, though. Both buffs and debuffs.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sorry folks but that idea has been scrapped. After some discussions and considerations it was just not viable. The sleeps still will be extremely effective for killing toggles, though. Both buffs and debuffs.

dang, maybe implement more mobs with toggle buffs and debuffs then

[Captain Powerhouse]

Just now, Wavicle said:

dang, maybe implement more mobs with toggle buffs and debuffs then

That is already happening. There are foes with tactics and I think some other buffs in the ASF, and you will see more similar stuff in the future.

[UltraAlt]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:11 PM, Mezmera said:

It would likely make sleeps a bit more impactful to have in your arsenal if it offered some type of drowsy effect where the targets awoken have a -tohitt debuff for a bit.  

 

... and/or defense  debuff.

 

a "groggy" state for 5-10 seconds until they can shake it off.

[Mezmera]

38 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sorry folks but that idea has been scrapped. After some discussions and considerations it was just not viable. The sleeps still will be extremely effective for killing toggles, though. Both buffs and debuffs.

 

Yeah I didn't think Lord Nemesis would let that fly.  

[Vanden]

On 11/6/2021 at 11:50 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Eventually some NPC buffs like Nemesis Vengeance will also be purgeable via applying a sleep on buffed entities.

 

What about NPC debuffs? Tarantula Mistresses' Mental Scramble desperately needs some kind of possible counterplay.

[Peacemoon]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sorry folks but that idea has been scrapped. After some discussions and considerations it was just not viable. The sleeps still will be extremely effective for killing toggles, though. Both buffs and debuffs.

That’s a shame. 
Have you thought about giving Sleeps an additional effect so that if they get woken up straight away there is still some lingering effect?

 

What I would suggest is a non-enhanceable effect that lasts 6-8 seconds. So if the Sleep works it won’t have any effect (they’re asleep, and by the time it breaks the secondary effect will have expired),  but if they are woken up quickly there is still some lingering benefit. 
“Drowsy” is a good name for it, and could be -Recharge, -Slow, -Def or even a short duration stun (4 seconds?).
 

This would give sleeps a little more combat potency, without changing their core purpose. I like the fact it would give a little bonus only if they’re woken up early. 
 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Peacemoon

[drbuzzard]

OK, built up a stalker to test out the placate change. Just to get a twofer out of it, I took the character solo on the Aeon SF. 

 

It certainly appears to work pretty well. I was using an EM/EA stalker, and clearly this is no AOE king (added the weapon EPP to get the exploding shuriken to shore that up). However even in the first mission where the research scientists all summon a posse of spider bots, I could get by by placating the crowd as I focus on the boss. It's a good tool now, in contrast to the past where placate was simply a power to skip. I also appreciate that something can be slotted into it, as I put in perfect zinger for the bonuses. 

 

Overall my evaluation is that it is working as intended, and took a dud power and made it worthy of serious consideration in any build. A very good change overall. 

[Mezmera]

8 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

OK, built up a stalker to test out the placate change. Just to get a twofer out of it, I took the character solo on the Aeon SF. 

 

It certainly appears to work pretty well. I was using an EM/EA stalker, and clearly this is no AOE king (added the weapon EPP to get the exploding shuriken to shore that up). However even in the first mission where the research scientists all summon a posse of spider bots, I could get by by placating the crowd as I focus on the boss. It's a good tool now, in contrast to the past where placate was simply a power to skip. I also appreciate that something can be slotted into it, as I put in perfect zinger for the bonuses. 

 

Overall my evaluation is that it is working as intended, and took a dud power and made it worthy of serious consideration in any build. A very good change overall. 

 

Did you slot damage procs?  If the placate procs damage does that count as damage to allow them to aggro to you again, or bring you out of hide on placating?

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Did you slot damage procs?  If the placate procs damage does that count as damage to allow them to aggro to you again, or bring you out of hide on placating?

The proc was in, though I didn't really test to figure out if it could aggro targets. I suppose I can check that tonight. I only really used it to peel off lackeys. 

[drbuzzard]

OK, tried it out. The perfect zinger damage proc doesn't cause any aggro. It appears that the proc hits before the placate sets in. 

 

[KaizenSoze]

I have definitely seen some buggy behavior with placate. It probably existed before the change. Just using the power more.

 

I have placated a mob and started hitting him and it's like he's still placated. Just stands there. No extra crit damage, just no return attacks.

 

I'll see if I can reproduce it consistently.

[drbuzzard]

Yeah, I can't say I'm expert with the before version of placate since I've been skipping it for years since they fixed stalkers so long ago. 

[Crasical]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:50 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

This is step one in what likely will be a long set of changes that will take a while to implement. The idea being that Sleep will be a reliable way to shut-down enemy buff and debuffs. Someone already mentioned Hurricane as an example. Another example is CoT Chill of the Night toggles that drastically debuff accuracy. Right now, sleep will reliably turn those toggles off.

 

Eventually some NPC buffs like Nemesis Vengeance will also be purgeable via applying a sleep on buffed entities.

 

Most cases where this would be useful, either the player accuracy is heavily debuffed, or enemy defense drastically buffed.

 

 

Man, having Munitions Sleep Grenade be, like, *useful* is gonna be weird.

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Crasical said:

 

 

Man, having Munitions Sleep Grenade be, like, *useful* is gonna be weird.

 

Look a little further in the thread, the vengeance part of that change has been canceled.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wavicle

[Crasical]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Look a little further in the thread, the vengeance part of that change has been canceled.

I mean, that's a shame, but still. 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Crasical said:

I mean, that's a shame, but still. 

Yea, still a great change