A Knockback to Knockdown toggle

[TorduVide]

Hi there!  This is something I've seen discussed a good few times and I'd just like to suggest it again.  Whether it's a toggle in the options or from Null, please make this a toggle, at the very least one for Master Minds.

 

I get it, there are whole enhancements that convert this, yet as a mastermind with literally six sources of knockback and zero immobilize I've been asked many times in group content to dismiss my pets, sometimes not even asked, just outright told.  This, of course, essentially zeroes out my damage potential.  Most other types don't have abilities that they absolutely are required to use to still do their job which also comes with one of the most annoying aspects of this game, knockback.

It's particularly annoying for those MMs who use bots as one of the biggest damage dealers is incendiary rockets, it creates a damage dealing patch of fire in an an area and, without the enhancement, it also knocks back, thus knocking enemies out of the area.  And if that doesn't do it, then one of the other abilities from one of my five other bots will, absolutely, knock everything and everyone out of any and all sort of aoes and scatter them to the point they have an advantage and can't really be aoed any longer.

 

So, all together this means that my three primary damaging powers all require the KB to KD conversion enhancement.  This means that I get to miss stat increases for them and am forced to also miss set completions, as well.  From less defense to less damage, this means that, in most cases, if I want to be team viable I have to have the KB conversion, but it also means that I'm not pulling my weight as much as I could be.

 

Sure, I know there are some out there that don't mind the KB or think it's just a cost of wanting to party with other people as a MM or, at least, a cost of choices of power, yet when the KB negatively impacts not only play with other players yet also play solo with just my minions, I can safely say that it is a problem, one that isn't truly solved with an enhancement as that just creates a whole new problem of lesser stats.

 

To this end, I plea.  Please, make KB to KD a toggle in options or something.  If people want to knock things back on their own time or they find groups supportive of such, then great, let them.  Yet for those that want a nice and clean and smooth run, solo or otherwise, it'd be pretty great to not constantly send things flying out of our own or our team mate's aoes and also not have to sacrifice stats to prevent doing so, it's bad enough that even AVs, who holds, immobs, etc just melt off of, will run away without terrorize or the like, please don't make it so our own abilities give them a gosh darn head start!

Edited November 7, 2021 by TorduVide
completing a thought

[PeregrineFalcon]

[SuggestorK]

While im not against such a toggle my energy blaster would like it 🙂 .... what kind of foes u are fighting... my Main is a Lvl 50+3 Robot/Dark MM and yes a minority of foes get knocked back.. but not from the big bot.. and rarely of the fire patch before theyre dead.... and i only have Common IOS slotted into him until i once get a full Purple set....

[TorduVide]

31 minutes ago, SuggestorK said:

While im not against such a toggle my energy blaster would like it 🙂 .... what kind of foes u are fighting... my Main is a Lvl 50+3 Robot/Dark MM and yes a minority of foes get knocked back.. but not from the big bot.. and rarely of the fire patch before theyre dead.... and i only have Common IOS slotted into him until i once get a full Purple set....

 

I'm fighting just about everything.  I've since slotted the conversions so the issue isn't there any more, just the other issues of losing out on stats, but before that everything went flying constantly.  All of the bots have knock back attacks, wouldn't be able to slot the knockback enhancements if they didn't.  If you don't equip and upgrade the bots then I don't think any of them have KB abilities at that point, but you also lose out on a lot of damage and utility 'cause at that point there's a lot of your bots just sorta standing there for a few seconds while their one ability recharges.

 

Equip gives all of your bots a knock back, the battle bots and protector both get heavy laser and assault gets dual plasma blast which is an AoE.  Upgrade gives your Assault yet another KB, and this one's a big one with a magnitude of 10 in a 20 ft radius which it seems to rather enjoy using right after it uses its Incendiary Swarm Missiles (at least from my experience), thus often knocking all the things with a 10 mag kb out of the flames.

 

So, to summarize, between all your bots that's seven knockback abilities going off in random order depending on how each individual bot has been engaged and decides to fire.  Even though they aren't all 100% chance between all seven abilities that's still a lot of knock that's going off very frequently.  Sometimes you can get lucky and go a good while without any, but other times you can get unlucky and just feel like you're knocking things around the entire mission or whatever.

Edited November 7, 2021 by TorduVide

[Itikar]

What did you pick as epic power pool? I recall many masterminds telling me that one of the AoE immobilizes were quite useful in their builds, precisely for keeping the knockback in check, and not just exclusively with bots.

[TorduVide]

11 minutes ago, Itikar said:

What did you pick as epic power pool? I recall many masterminds telling me that one of the AoE immobilizes were quite useful in their builds, precisely for keeping the knockback in check, and not just exclusively with bots.

Mace Mastery for defensive buff plus power boost, I tried to fit it in but there really wasn't any room in my build to also get the immob.  Still, though, that's ultimately just another example of having to go out of one's way to work around an annoying mechanic.  It's one of those things where instead of losing slots you lose a power to mitigate it, or, more likely, both so you can keep the immob up constantly.

[Greycat]

Absolutely against a toggle. No thanks. I don't want to make it even easier for someone to bitch at me because they're afraid of knockback and feel it authorizes them to tell me how to play.

 

That said, I *wouldn't* argue with pet KB being KD automatically. Unlike what players (in theory) can do, pets aren't really able to intelligently use knockback, and even positioning MM minions doesn't mean they're not going to suddenly decide to turn and target something completely different.

[TorduVide]

7 hours ago, Greycat said:

Absolutely against a toggle. No thanks. I don't want to make it even easier for someone to bitch at me because they're afraid of knockback and feel it authorizes them to tell me how to play.

 

That said, I *wouldn't* argue with pet KB being KD automatically. Unlike what players (in theory) can do, pets aren't really able to intelligently use knockback, and even positioning MM minions doesn't mean they're not going to suddenly decide to turn and target something completely different.

 

People already do bitch at others because they hate knockback.   You must've missed that part of my OP where I said, specifically, "I've been asked many times in group content to dismiss my pets, sometimes not even asked, just outright told."  So.. your reason for disagreement already happens, perhaps not to you, yet, as you noted, you're smart enough to know when to use such abilities, unlike pets.  Of course, there are some people who simply aren't that smart, or they may misclick and send enemies flying by accident, or, similarly, they might just start with their normal rota before realizing "oops, shouldn't've done that."  Yet having a nice toggle for KB to KD would fix all the issues with KB in a group.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, TorduVide said:

 

  Yet having a nice toggle for KB to KD would fix all the issues with KB in a group.

 

... except for the person being told to use it being forced to play a way they don't enjoy. Who then has to either play nerfed - and yes, for me I've noticed a decided change in my own survivability and utility with stuff set to KD - or just leave the group.

 

Like I said, I'm for it for pets. You can't control what they do very well. Not for players.

[TorduVide]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... except for the person being told to use it being forced to play a way they don't enjoy. Who then has to either play nerfed - and yes, for me I've noticed a decided change in my own survivability and utility with stuff set to KD - or just leave the group.

 

Like I said, I'm for it for pets. You can't control what they do very well. Not for players.

 

People already do that, as I said.  Doesn't matter if it's pets or you using abilities with KB, if people figure out who's doing the knocking they'll ask or tell you to knock it off, which just means not using those abilities at all or leaving/getting kicked.  At least this way if you're in a group like that you can adapt and still use those abilities that would otherwise KB, assuming you wouldn't just choose to leave in the first place.

Edited November 7, 2021 by TorduVide

[Wavicle]

Adding KB>KD is often a big DPS increase, clearly for Bots, but also for many other sets as well (Fire Control, Storm Summoning, Energy Blast, etc). As such it should come at a cost. I believe the current options are fine. It might be that certain particular sets (Energy Blast, Force Fields) could use a boost but it's unnecessary to have a free way to change them all.

 

The exception I would support is if a Future Incarnate power was added that let you modify certain effects, this could be one of them.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Wavicle

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, TorduVide said:

 

People already do that, as I said.  Doesn't matter if it's pets or you using abilities with KB, if people figure out who's doing the knocking they'll ask or tell you to knock it off, which just means not using those abilities at all or leaving/getting kicked.  At least this way if you're in a group like that you can adapt and still use those abilities that would otherwise KB, assuming you wouldn't just choose to leave in the first place.

 

The problem being that people with KD powers then never *learn to use them properly.*

 

"Oh, I have to leave this toggle on?"

 

And that others will get the idea they're "bad" or that they're entitled to tell others to do so. Which... no.

[Yomo Kimyata]

What's the problem we're trying to solve?

 

1.  People complain about knockback when I'm on teams.  Ok, if that bothers you, use one of the tools available.  Problem solved.

2.  I'm not doing enough damage when I'm solo.  Ok, if that bothers you, use build 2 or 3 and switch to a solo build when you are soloing.  Problem solved.

 

Am I missing something?

[wjrasmussen]

3 hours ago, TorduVide said:

 

People already do bitch at others because they hate knockback.   You must've missed that part of my OP where I said, specifically, "I've been asked many times in group content to dismiss my pets, sometimes not even asked, just outright told."  So.. your reason for disagreement already happens, perhaps not to you, yet, as you noted, you're smart enough to know when to use such abilities, unlike pets.  Of course, there are some people who simply aren't that smart, or they may misclick and send enemies flying by accident, or, similarly, they might just start with their normal rota before realizing "oops, shouldn't've done that."  Yet having a nice toggle for KB to KD would fix all the issues with KB in a group.

why are you posting so many changes to the game?  If you don't like the game why play it.   These are not improvements, they are changes. Changes I feel won't improve the situation.  More like dumbing down the game.

[TorduVide]

10 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

why are you posting so many changes to the game?  If you don't like the game why play it.   These are not improvements, they are changes. Changes I feel won't improve the situation.  More like dumbing down the game.

So many?  I've posted two!  This one's even rather minor and has been a thorn in many people's side for literally years, you can see threads on this topic going back quite a ways.  Not annoying teammates or just not having your own pets knock things out of your own aoes is an improvement, hands down, period, end of discussion.  The other one is subjective, that's fine, I and no doubt others would consider it an improvement, yet clearly there are some that don't.  Yet being able to toggle an annoying mechanic on or off on the fly is objectively an improvement over having to waste stats in getting rid of it or being annoying to team mates as well as yourself.

[Jacktar]

Hi, lol Stone/Stone tanker, 9 powers in secondary with five of them having KB! Forget Build Up and Taunt as utility powers and that means 5 of your 7 damage powers blow your foes away, just great for punchvoke.

So top of the shopping list at approx 3 mill a piece is 5 KB/KD enhancers.

Comes with the territory if you want to roll a stoner, but at least with the changes now on beta we will be able to jump with joy when you do get them all, just not very high 😇

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Jacktar said:

Hi, lol Stone/Stone tanker, 9 powers in secondary with five of them having KB! Forget Build Up and Taunt as utility powers and that means 5 of your 7 damage powers blow your foes away, just great for punchvoke.

So top of the shopping list at approx 3 mill a piece is 5 KB/KD enhancers.

Comes with the territory if you want to roll a stoner, but at least with the changes now on beta we will be able to jump with joy when you do get them all, just not very high 😇

My understanding is that the only power in stone melee that is knockback is Hurl Boulder. Everything else is knock down. I understand that technically they are the same thing but with different magnitude. They shouldn’t be knocking things away unless those enemies are minus level to you, or clockwork.

[Jacktar]

 

Hi Wavicle, thanks muchly for your response, appreciated.

I am a proper noob to builds and sets still but trying, and atm am just reading and taking descriptions at face value. Am always glad to learn to get better np.

 

Got this from wiki or fandom site, 

 

Tanker

Stone Melee is available as a secondary set for Tankers. The following table shows which powers are available and at what level:

PowerLevelEffect

Stone Fist1Melee, Moderate Damage(Smashing), Foe Minor Disorient

Stone Mallet2Melee, High Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Heavy Mallet4Melee, Superior Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Taunt10Ranged(Targeted Area of Effect), Foe Taunt

Build Up16Self +Damage, +To-Hit

Fault20Close(Targeted Area of Effect), Foe Knockback, Disorient

Hurl Boulder28Ranged, High Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback, -Fly

Tremor35Point Blank Area of Effect, Moderate Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Seismic Smash38Melee, Extreme Damage(Smashing), Foe Hold

 

Apologies for copy/paste not looking too good😢

 

This may be way out of date with current power actions but by pure chance I have been rolling  a Stoner on live and have just hit lvl 48 with it and all the power descriptions appear to say the same.

 

I just took that info at face value and got and slotted the KB/KD enhancers as I got the powers.

That means that I have no reference as to if they actually are just KD and my enhancers are not needed.

 

I would be absolutely delighted if they are not needed and I can resell and get my inf back 💰💰😃

Cheers 👍

[Wavicle]

Just now, Jacktar said:

 

Hi Wavicle, thanks muchly for your response, appreciated.

I am a proper noob to builds and sets still but trying, and atm am just reading and taking descriptions at face value. Am always glad to learn to get better np.

 

Got this from wiki or fandom site, 

 

Tanker

Stone Melee is available as a secondary set for Tankers. The following table shows which powers are available and at what level:

PowerLevelEffect

Stone Fist1Melee, Moderate Damage(Smashing), Foe Minor Disorient

Stone Mallet2Melee, High Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Heavy Mallet4Melee, Superior Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Taunt10Ranged(Targeted Area of Effect), Foe Taunt

Build Up16Self +Damage, +To-Hit

Fault20Close(Targeted Area of Effect), Foe Knockback, Disorient

Hurl Boulder28Ranged, High Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback, -Fly

Tremor35Point Blank Area of Effect, Moderate Damage(Smashing), Foe Knockback

Seismic Smash38Melee, Extreme Damage(Smashing), Foe Hold

 

Apologies for copy/paste not looking too good😢

 

This may be way out of date with current power actions but by pure chance I have been rolling  a Stoner on live and have just hit lvl 48 with it and all the power descriptions appear to say the same.

 

I just took that info at face value and got and slotted the KB/KD enhancers as I got the powers.

That means that I have no reference as to if they actually are just KD and my enhancers are not needed.

 

I would be absolutely delighted if they are not needed and I can resell and get my inf back 💰💰😃

Cheers 👍

I can’t say for sure, as my Stone Melee character is a Brute, but if it’s the same on Tankers then you should only see Knockdown from most of your powers most of the time.

[Wavicle]

@Jacktar The way to tell the difference (because the wording IS confusing) is to look at the actual numbers. Knockback of magnitude less than 1 is only Knockdown. The numbers on most Stone Melee powers are 0.67 magnitude knockback, so they should be functioning as Knockdown in most cases without using the special enhancements.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Jacktar said:

Got this from wiki or fandom site, 

 

 

If it's wikia or fandom, don't use those. They still pop up when doing quick COH Wiki searches, and some of the information wasn't even up to date when live shut down or is flat out wrong.

 

Go to the top of the forum, click "More," pick the HC wiki, bookmark it. Yes, some of it still needs updating, but it's much, much more up to date and risk free.

[Jacktar]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

@Jacktar The way to tell the difference (because the wording IS confusing) is to look at the actual numbers. Knockback of magnitude less than 1 is only Knockdown. The numbers on most Stone Melee powers are 0.67 magnitude knockback, so they should be functioning as Knockdown in most cases without using the special enhancements.

Hi Wavicle, I just been to dance class and half way through a foxtrot It dawned on me what you were telling me about mag levels and it was like a flash of Duh yes of course !

Message received (lol eventually) and understood. I love learning something new to me about our game and do appreciate your patience with me.

[Haijinx]

a GLOBAL KB-KD IO wouldn't be so bad ...

[TheZag]

I love me some good old fashioned knockback.  Enhance it over 9000,  knock them back to the moon.  The map is only clear if they were knocked clean out of it.  The floor is lava and you are saving their lives.  Up, up and away.  Its a bird,  its a plane,  no its a hellion hit by mag 50 knockback.  Time a knockback with a friend using the baseball bat.

[Nemu]

You are going to get all sorts of KB lovers coming out of hiding to tell you to F* off.

 

This topic is even more contentious than your auto-level to 50 suggestion. You don't know what you've gotten yourself into. The only way to top this is to make a dedicated emp healer thread.