Proposed Changes for Mind Control

[MTeague]

I do agree with some of the thread's general frustration that many of Mind Control's powers are less useful to mass roaming murderblast teams. 

But honestly?  ALL CONTROLLER POWERS are near-useless for mass roaming murderblast teams. 

If everything dies in 5 seconds or less, your immob's don't make you great for team play, either. Nor does your pet. 

Your proc-bomb stuns, maybe. 

 

There's a lot of things I would change about the game. and most would be hated. 

 

I do kind of question what the point even is for purple triangles anymore. All they seem to do now is make AV's even more annoying when soloing a controller, while not presenting any problems for blast-heavy teams anyway.

[xl8]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:09 AM, Frozen Burn said:

Mind Control is weaker than other control sets damage-wise

That's only because YOU are using your primary for damage. When you could be "controlling" with it and using other powers to attack.

[FrauleinMental]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

That's only because YOU are using your primary for damage. When you could be "controlling" with it and using other powers to attack.

I have to use my primary for damage.  My secondary doesn't do damage.

[MTeague]

9 minutes ago, FrauleinMental said:

I have to use my primary for damage.  My secondary doesn't do damage.

 

There's power pools too.  Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch, all three taken together, can be quite nice on a controller, when you have Containment going. 

Arcane Bolt is also a fairly solid option. 

 

Would those make flavor-sense for your character? Maybe, maybe not. 

 

There is also the damage Proc option.  Holds that do damage (like Dominate) can take a LOT of procs.  Now, I'd be leery to add too many, because I wouldn't want to savage my hold duration too badly in the name of slotting damage procs. But they're an option to sprinkle into various powers.  A non-damaging secondary like Poison can benefit quite a bit from procs. Others like Empathy or FF, not so much. 

[Frozen Burn]

4 hours ago, xl8 said:

That's only because YOU are using your primary for damage. When you could be "controlling" with it and using other powers to attack.

 

First of all, we're talking about control sets - not using other sets to compensate.  But as a controller, your secondary does no (or very little) damage at all.  But even as a Mind Control Dominator, most of your damage is coming from your secondary whereas with other control sets, you get extra damage from your primary added onto your secondary. 

 

Yes, Mind Control has great control... just very little damage comparatively to other control sets.  Other control sets also have great control, but they also provide additional damage (albeit minor) and an opportunity for containment (especially needed for controllers).  

[FrauleinMental]

Oddly, I've found my Ice/Ice Blaster seems to have stronger controls than my Mind/Kin Controller, and additionally does Blaster damage.

 

As has been said before, most of Mind's problem comes down to how it interacts (or doesn't) with Containment.

 

Mezmerize/Mass Hypnosis is another problem, since they don't tick like some other Sleep powers do, so even a DoT tick is enough to wake the target up (and thus destroy precious Containment).  And the sign of a sleeping target is subtle enough that players seem to be way worse than the AI about avoiding these targets.  (I've been Slept on teams and had enemies ignore me completely for the full duration.)

[arcane]

12 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

But even as a Mind Control Dominator, most of your damage is coming from your secondary whereas with other control sets, you get extra damage from your primary added onto your secondary. 

As already mentioned, Mind Control is firmly in the middle of the pack offense-wise, so this is misleading.

 

It’s extremely obvious that 6-slotted Mass Confusion contributes better offense than the entire sets of Ice Control, Earth Control, and Gravity Control, at the very minimum. So we need to frame this honestly and not imply it has the worst offense.

Edited February 9, 2022 by arcane

[xl8]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:15 PM, FrauleinMental said:

I have to use my primary for damage.  My secondary doesn't do damage.

Secondary... ancillary... epic...

[xl8]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:35 PM, Frozen Burn said:

First of all, we're talking about control sets - not using other sets to compensate

Trollers control. If you want to do damage, invest in other pools. Trollers relied on containment back in the day, now you have proc slotting.

I have a Dark/Time based on a comic book hero who uses flight and fighting to clobber held opponents. Works exceptionally well as the secondary pool attacks have short cast times. If that doesn't work for you or doesn't fit your theme, then there isn't much for you to do, but the game doesn't cater for every single possibility.
Maybe try playing on New Dawn to see if you like freeform slotting?

[arcane]

38 minutes ago, xl8 said:

Secondary... ancillary... epic...

You forgot procs! Powers don’t need a damage component to do damage, what a silly notion 🙂
 

I’m curious what exact combos Mind Control detractors are using. Perhaps they just need pointers.

Edited February 10, 2022 by arcane

[EmperorSteele]

For real. Like, if you're playing Mind/Emp or /FF... then, yeaahh, good luck. But if you pair it with rad, dark, time, or any other set with -res, you'll see a noticable impact. Pair it with Kin and you'll do respectable damage.

 

The thing with Mind is... it's busy. Other Controller sets do their damage over time, and have pets to do the heavy lifting, so all you have to do is toss out an AoE, or carrion creepers or phantom army, then let your pet go to town while you keep the pet healed. You're in no danger, damage is being done, life is good. Mind Control? You gotta WORK at it! Even if you Mass Comedy a group, if you want reward credit, you still gotta chuck out an AoE or two.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by EmperorSteele

[xl8]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:56 AM, arcane said:

You forgot procs!

Did I now...

 

On 2/10/2022 at 9:22 AM, xl8 said:

Trollers relied on containment back in the day, now you have proc slotting.

 

[ScarySai]

1: Slash the cd on mass confusion and move it to earlier in the set.

 

2: Make telekinesis the t9.

 

3: Make telekinesis cause Increasing psychic damage throughout it's duration, add the option to change direction to player's desire.

 

4: Make dominate hurt a little more.

[Zeraphia]

49 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

1: Slash the cd on mass confusion and move it to earlier in the set.

 

2: Make telekinesis the t9.

 

3: Make telekinesis cause Increasing psychic damage throughout it's duration, add the option to change direction to player's desire.

 

4: Make dominate hurt a little more.

Dominate hurts really hard as-is with procs (like hardest hitting single target attack in many epic and primary pools) but yeah. I Agree with the list. Honestly, I wish Telekinesis was a repeated AoE knockup with some psychic/smashing damage. It would certainly fit the theme for what the power was supposed to do, definitely be an upgrade over what it is right now. Although, that breaks the good old, cottage rule. 

[MTeague]

I would like to see TK pull targets INWARD towards your anchor, much like Singularity does. 

I have no expectation of ever seeing this. But that would be useful enough to justify the extreme endurance cost. 

[Milk Sheik]

Random note for those who hated on Mesmerize early in the thread -- I played my mind/rad recently and noticed that Mesmerize does about twice the base psi damage as Dominate. So besides the control aspects and the reasonably fast recharge, it's got that going for it.

 

For all the "but sleep doesn't work because of AoEs," I was recently on a 5-man TinPex that was the safest TinPex I've ever been on because we had a mind dom. We popped the War Walkers while the rest of the mobs were unconscious and just didn't fling Ion Judgement willy-nilly. Turned out to be surgical and easy. (This would be the same mind dom that made my Master of Eden badge a cakewalk because he perma-confused the Crystal Titan.)

 

Oh, and +1 vote for Fear triggering containment. I'm not really sure why it wouldn't. Considering damage temporarily breaks them out of the feared state and lets them get an attack off, so it's more compatible than Sleep but less than Holds, and it takes a mez enhancement when it comes to HOs and ATOs, this seems like it would make sense and not be terribly unbalancing.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Milk Sheik

[Zeraphia]

12 hours ago, Milk Sheik said:

Random note for those who hated on Mesmerize early in the thread -- I played my mind/rad recently and noticed that Mesmerize does about twice the base psi damage as Dominate. So besides the control aspects and the reasonably fast recharge, it's got that going for it.

So, by base damage, you're not wrong... but because procs exist, Dominate pulls firmly ahead because it can accept at least 6 damage procs. Even containment and Glad Jav with Apoc procs can't pull it ahead vs Dominate. 

 

Mesermize's best thing going for it is that it can provide CC to sleep an AV in one go. Don't wanna deal with Ghost Widow or an annoying minion you can't oneshot? Sleep it until you're ready and then chain CC it with Dominate/Confuse.

[biostem]

I think a simple solution would be to have mass confusion "kill" any minions or LTs it hits, then summon a "mind controlled" version of said enemies, which act as temporary pets that fight for you.  Have the power act as normal for anything higher... 

Edited February 16, 2022 by biostem

[Alaric2019]

As a long time fan and player of Mind control on Controllers and Dominators, I feel that the only power that needs a major look is Telekinesis.

 

I know...  many have said the same thing.

 

My solution would be to make it a patch immobilize power with a significant -recharge component (This adds a much needed secondary effect to the set)

It also solves one of Controllers main issues with inability to set containment and adds an every spawn power. ( I would set the recharge at 45-90 seconds (needs a balance test))

[AgentForest]

I think the biggest problems with Mind Control are:

1. Levitate, unlike Lift (Gravity Control), has NO synergy with the set.  It wakes up sleeping foes, undoing a lot of containment sources you have, and doesn't gain damage if used on a held foe.  Lift is worth grabbing for your damage rotation.  Levitate is not.
2. Sleep moves are largely underwhelming for controllers, as on teams they often just get woken up by AoE damage, and you can only get containment damage once if you hit them before people wake them up.  There should be some sort of lingering debuff or bonus that you get even after sleeping foes wake up.  Earth Control's Salt Crystals have a lingering defense debuff.  Mind Control gets nothing.  This isn't to say that sleep moves are bad, but that their uses are so limited compared to what other controllers tend to get.  Honestly, I feel like any enemy woken up forcibly from a Mind Controller's sleep effects should take psychic damage immediately, and if the controller woke them up, containment damage should apply.
3. Mass Confusion and Seeds of Confusion could stand to be made more similar in duration, recharge, etc.  I'll give you that.  Make it an earlier move in the set for sure.
4. Mind Control does deserve a pet.  Pets provide bodies on the field and utility without throwing away your party's experience points.  Confusion is definitely a powerful condition defensively, but that power comes at the cost of experience gain, which can be problematic.  The T9 power should definitely be a pet like other sets have, but make it unique somehow.  Like, a phantasmal force that takes over an enemy's mind temporarily and uses them as your pet, any damage they deal counting as your own for experience purposes.  This pet could be a floating extension of your mind, targetable and vulnerable like any other pet, that rips free will from enemy targets and turns them into expendable pets.
5. Telekinesis suffers from several issues.  No other toggled hold effect in the game is this expensive for your endurance, nor do the others shove enemies out of range.  Personally, I feel like this ability should work more like Entangling Aura or Choking Cloud.  It should have similar costs and magnitude, and not push enemies away.  If nearby enemies just sometimes lifted off the ground useless for a moment, that could be really fun and useful.

Edited February 16, 2022 by AgentForest

[Mezmera]

10 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

So, by base damage, you're not wrong... but because procs exist, Dominate pulls firmly ahead because it can accept at least 6 damage procs. Even containment and Glad Jav with Apoc procs can't pull it ahead vs Dominate. 

 

Mesermize's best thing going for it is that it can provide CC to sleep an AV in one go. Don't wanna deal with Ghost Widow or an annoying minion you can't oneshot? Sleep it until you're ready and then chain CC it with Dominate/Confuse.

 

The only thing about this is that Dominate on Control characters have a lower recharge rate which already make procing it less than optimal.  Not terrible but on my dom unless I'm on my dedicated control build my main builds don't even take Dominate since if I'm going for damage I'm getting better value out of the t2 melee attack Bone Smasher.  

[Without_Pause]

26 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

Mind Control does deserve a pet.  Pets provide bodies on the field and utility without throwing away your party's experience points.  Confusion is definitely a powerful condition defensively, but that power comes at the cost of experience gain, which can be problematic.  The T9 power should definitely be a pet like other sets have, but make it unique somehow.  Like, a phantasmal force that takes over an enemy's mind temporarily and uses them as your pet, any damage they deal counting as your own for experience purposes.  This pet could be a floating extension of your mind, targetable and vulnerable like any other pet, that rips free will from enemy targets and turns them into expendable pets.

Penelope Yin has a pet. This is shown in Maria's arc. It is absolutely psionic based, but the Wiki has no info on it from what I can tell. TK could be taken out and powers shifted down or even just make the pet in that area to be different.

 

My default answer if people want to be hell bent on Mind not having a pet would be to simply make TK into a AoE disorient called Mind Wipe. I think serious consideration should be made to rethinking Mass Confusion's recharge time in line with Seeds.

[AgentForest]

34 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

My default answer if people want to be hell bent on Mind not having a pet would be to simply make TK into a AoE disorient called Mind Wipe. I think serious consideration should be made to rethinking Mass Confusion's recharge time in line with Seeds.

I'm more inclined to think Seeds of Confusion and Mass Confusion should have their effects more evened out.  Shorten the cooldown on the longer one to raise the cooldown on the shorter one, adjust durations to be more similar, etc.  I don't think lowering one down or raising the other up completely fixes the problems both have, but a mix of the two approaches would be good.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, AgentForest said:

I'm more inclined to think Seeds of Confusion and Mass Confusion should have their effects more evened out.  Shorten the cooldown on the longer one to raise the cooldown on the shorter one, adjust durations to be more similar, etc.  I don't think lowering one down or raising the other up completely fixes the problems both have, but a mix of the two approaches would be good.

You're ignoring a big difference between the two. Mass Confusion doesn't aggro, Seeds of Confusion does.

[MTeague]

I'm fine with Mind have two mutually exclusive powers, one of which to be a traditional pet.

But leave me the option to stay status-quo.

 

If Mind Control is made into yet another cookie-cutter pet-driven imitation of every other controller and I lost abilities i value in the name of that .... that would sadden me greatly. I don't know that I'd bother load up my controller again at that point.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by MTeague