Will Regen ever be reworked?

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This is why we post on the forums. It's the only way we have to communicate with the developers.

 

Discord too I suppose, but I haven't seen any of the developers in voice and there's no way they could possibly read through all of the unorganized text in those channels.

 

Especially not in Discord. I have checked out the Discord channel before and it looked to me like a large entourage of people crowding the Devs, constantly jibber jabbering, perhaps in an attempt to gain their favor and be noticed, one can only assume. At least from my perspective that was what it looked like. So trying to get a word in edgewise and hoping it sticks long enough for the Devs to see it on Discord would be more futile than trying to make a public announcement on LFG chat, heh. I figure if a Dev were to be interested in reading what we're thinking about a subject, the forums would be the bet place to have an organized discussion where a Dev wouldn't have to sift through tons of irrelevant crap to read our thoughts.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Solarverse
Bad hair day

[Crysis]

Didn't read the whole thread 'cuz "LOL Regen" but as far as I'm concerned the rework of Regen is actually over in the Sentinel AT now.  On a Sent, it's actually pretty decent.  Wouldn't mind seeing some of these concepts scaled up a bit and applied to Scrappers/Tankers/Stalkers.  It's nowhere near the ridiculous levels of game breaking mechanics it was back in the early days of Launch on Live, but it's playable and actually fairly sturdy if you can avoid -Regen powers applied against you.  And when you run into -Regen, and my experience is by no means the benchmark, I tend to find most of those are ranged attacks.  So doing a little around-corner pulling and/or herding actually negates most of that stuff (again...not all). 

 

I encourage you to play a /Regen Sent to get a feel for what "could be" and not compare it so much to the Regen set on Scrappers.  That powerset was seriously "grudge nerfed" to oblivion, to ridiculous levels of punitive changes.  I'm totally serious....at least one of the devs had a serious case of "I'll show THOSE players" and just busted it down to almost idiotic levels of gimp.  Classic example of a dev throwing their emotions into a fix.  

 

 

[arcane]

9 hours ago, Crysis said:

and just busted it down to almost idiotic levels of gimp.  

 

 

Except this is also hyperbole that doesn’t match the experience of people that know how to play regen just fine 🙂

 

Reasonable critiques and proposal = yes pls. 

 

Ridiculous hyperbole = not gonna help your cause since it’s fundamentally untrue.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Except this is also hyperbole that doesn’t match the experience of people that know how to play regen just fine 🙂

 

Reasonable critiques and proposal = yes pls. 

 

Ridiculous hyperbole = not gonna help your cause since it’s fundamentally untrue.

 

Except the defense of Regen is often hyperbole in itself when people are using their ubber elite IO builds to defend the set. So there is plenty of hyperbole to go around it would seem.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Except the defense of Regen is often hyperbole in itself when people are using their ubber elite IO builds to defend the set. So there is plenty of hyperbole to go around it would seem.

I don’t have anything that isn’t fully IO’d, no... BUT...

 

Also, everything in this game blows with SO’s, so how exactly that makes a difference is beyond me. If you require me to strip away my IO’s to provide a valuable judgement, I can think of tons of powersets that become worse than Regen under those conditions.

 

My critiques come with IO’s. They’re cheap relative to gear in every other MMO I’ve played, and we all have access to them. Deal with it.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t have anything that isn’t fully IO’d, no... BUT...

 

Also, everything in this game blows with SO’s, so how exactly that makes a difference is beyond me. If you require me to strip away my IO’s to provide a valuable judgement, I can think of tons of powersets that become worse than Regen under those conditions.

 

My critiques come with IO’s. They’re cheap relative to gear in every other MMO I’ve played, and we all have access to them. Deal with it.

 

I don't use IO's until I am level 50. My leveling experience always includes teaming with other players while running TF's and missions. I experience sets without IO's on a regular basis. So how others should do it isn't on me. All I am saying is that no power should be getting changed or be neglected from change due to what IO's can change a build in to. As far as everything blowing with SO's, we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

All I am saying is that no power should be getting changed or be neglected from change due to what IO's can change a build in to.

Ok, well tons of powersets are due for buffs with this logic. Another wave of power creep incoming.

 

If I were to imagine the old pre-IO days, I would take Regen in a heartbeat over more sets than I care to name right now. So this argument actually hurts your case for me.

 

To clarify - yes, I am claiming IO’s add less to Regen than they do to other things, meaning Regen would actually be even better in your world vs mine.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

Ok, well tons of powersets are due for buffs with this logic. Another wave of power creep incoming.

 

If I were to imagine the old pre-IO days, I would take Regen in a heartbeat over more sets than I care to name right now. So this argument actually hurts your case for me.

 

To clarify - yes, I am claiming IO’s add less to Regen than they do to other things, meaning Regen would actually be even better in your world vs mine.

 

Like I said early, whatever. I just won't play it. Glad you like it is all I can say.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I had a much longer post... but it's just going round and round. Like regen? Use it. Play it. Enjoy it. Ignore the rest of us constantly giggling at all the hoops you have to jump through just to avoid faceplanting.

[arcane]

38 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I had a much longer post... but it's just going round and round. Like regen? Use it. Play it. Enjoy it. Ignore the rest of us constantly giggling at all the hoops you have to jump through just to avoid faceplanting.

Cool? Ignore me “constantly giggling” at people with fewer powersets to play in the game because they falsely deem them unplayable? Your loss.

 

For the record I never caught myself jumping through a single hoop. Thank you for correcting me.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

Cool? Ignore me “constantly giggling” at people with fewer powersets to play in the game because they falsely deem them unplayable? Your loss.

 

For the record I never caught myself jumping through a single hoop. Thank you for correcting me.

 

Here is the thing. I figured Regen was the one power set that everybody would agree is lacking in comparison to every other set out there, therefore has been made the least desirable set in game for any class other than Sents. But no matter how many people agree that the set is hurting, you always have those who believe it's fine as is. I just don't have the fight in me to argue about it, because no matter what people say about it, it won't be changing your mind, so the argument is utterly pointless to even have. I'm fairly certain that is where @Bill Z Bubba is sitting at as well.

I for one am just at complete disbelief that anyone would even defend the set, which makes fighting for a change for the set that much more discouraging. It's like, if we can't even agree that Regen is hurting, then there is literally nothing in this game that people can agree on. Not one single damn thing, and if we have to argue our case against Regen, that gives little hope at all for anything else in game that may need work. So at this point, I'm taking off the gloves and walking out of the ring. It's just not worth the effort. In other words, you win, my man.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Solarverse
bad breath

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

here is the thing. I figured Regen was the one power set that everybody would agree is lacking in comparison to every other set out there, therefore has been made the last desirable set in game for any class other than Sents. But no matter how many people agree that the set is hurting, you always have those who believe it's fine as is. I just don't have the fight in me to argue about it, because no matter what people say about it, it won't be changing your mind, so the argument is utterly pointless to even have. I'm fairly certain that is where @Bill Z Bubba is sitting at as well. I for one am just at complete disbelief that anyone would even defend the set, which makes fighting for a change for the set that much more discouraging. It's like, if we can't even agree that Regen is hurting, then there is literally nothing in this game that people can agree on. Not one single damn thing, and if we have to argue our case against Regen, that gives little hope at all for anything else in game that may need work. So at this point, I'm taking off the gloves and walking out of the ring. It's just not worth the effort. In other words, you win, my man.

I can easily name powersets that are worse off than Regen for me.

 

Because I reckon you think I’m just here to bat away proposals for buffs, I shall provide examples.

 

Relative to my other 25-35 characters with armor sets, I find my Regen brute is pretty much right up there with the pack. Where I want it to be.

 

Relative to my other 30-40 characters with support powersets, I will happily concede that my Force Field defender is a bit of a joke and contributes very little. I don’t remember what SO’s feel like but I bet they feel a little like playing a fully IO’d Force Field Defender.

 

Relative to my other characters with melee attack sets, I find my Kinetic Melee tanker a bit anemic on the damage side, no doubt.

 

Something about Sonic Blast feels like painfully slow trudging.

 

Etc.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Without_Pause]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Here is the thing. I figured Regen was the one power set that everybody would agree is lacking in comparison to every other set out there, therefore has been made the least desirable set in game for any class other than Sents. But no matter how many people agree that the set is hurting, you always have those who believe it's fine as is. I just don't have the fight in me to argue about it, because no matter what people say about it, it won't be changing your mind, so the argument is utterly pointless to even have. I'm fairly certain that is where @Bill Z Bubba is sitting at as well.

I for one am just at complete disbelief that anyone would even defend the set, which makes fighting for a change for the set that much more discouraging. It's like, if we can't even agree that Regen is hurting, then there is literally nothing in this game that people can agree on. Not one single damn thing, and if we have to argue our case against Regen, that gives little hope at all for anything else in game that may need work. So at this point, I'm taking off the gloves and walking out of the ring. It's just not worth the effort. In other words, you win, my man.

 

 

@Troo has been running a Stone/regen Brute through various things(ITF, Trapdoor) and posting about their experience with it. 

[Shred Monkey]

Shred's simple solution:  Give one of the auto powers a +100% base max HP fully enhancable.  (and remove HP caps).  Since regeneration works by healing a % of max HP every tick, all regen powers, and self heals will be effectively boosted.  Additionally, the number of hits you can take before dying from Max HP will be on par with the resists sets, but without losing the unique mechanism that is regen.  

 

Also, make it so defense debuffs don't stack with themselves.   Until that's addressed, cascading defense debuffs throw all balance issues off by way too much.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Shred Monkey said:

Shred's simple solution:  Give one of the auto powers a +100% base max HP fully enhancable.  (and remove HP caps). 

 

I didn’t know you were a satire poster 🙂

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Except the defense of Regen is often hyperbole in itself when people are using their ubber elite IO builds to defend the set. So there is plenty of hyperbole to go around it would seem.

No one compares Regen without IOs to other sets without IOs because no one cares for the circumstances of fights that are that far below standard play.

 

If we're keeping this a buck fiddy, SR without IOs and a special build to maximize the broken-ness of stacked def and over abundance of def, is actually not very good. If it's not Tanker and it's in any of the circumstances leading up to lv50 or foes that hinder SR by exploiting weaknesses, you're in for a bad time.

 

It's only when you start looking at the over fluffed sets (Bio, Rad and the like) do you start to approach your perspective and that works more as evidence those sets need toning down.

 

I don't think the defense of Regen is all hyperbole but rather it's the offense used against Regen (i.e basically calculating it's effectiveness by letting a bot pilot /Regen) that is hyperbole. 

 

Long story short, Regen does have the tools to never lose a fight... You just have to cut the fight short enough to fit in the window of Regen's tool. 

 

And if you retort by saying all armor sets have a tool to never lose a fight, I'd reply with, how often do you take *AND USE* those tier 9s of those other armor sets.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Ok, well tons of powersets are due for buffs with this logic. Another wave of power creep incoming.

 

If I were to imagine the old pre-IO days, I would take Regen in a heartbeat over more sets than I care to name right now. So this argument actually hurts your case for me.

 

To clarify - yes, I am claiming IO’s add less to Regen than they do to other things, meaning Regen would actually be even better in your world vs mine.

Power creep is only really attained if it adds to the top.  E.g. making Empathy as good as Nature isn't power creep since you can only have one Support set on your character.  That's just diversity.

 

If you don't want Regen buffed, focus on that.  These power creep comments just feel like scare tactics against the principle of improving any underperformers at all.

 

This is also relevant to my opinion on Regen.  Just reading the winds on what I think a rework would look like:

I would strongly suspect any build with purples and Incarnates (IMO, your actual armor set since Regen is a Sustain set) will see nerfs to pay for the baseline buffs. Ideally, if your toons truly are powerful but not OP, the changes would wash out and your performance impact would be minimal. 

Everyone under that benchmark would see universal buffs, but Troo will still hate them (but I will still laugh at your jokes along the way).

 

I don't have numbers to reference but I think RoP changes were like this. Iirc, the recharge changes made it so everyone has the equivalent of what a high recharge build used to give, even level 20s.  But people with upper crust bueno recharge builds are probably still smarting.

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I had a much longer post... but it's just going round and round. Like regen? Use it. Play it. Enjoy it. Ignore the rest of us constantly giggling at all the hoops you have to jump through just to avoid faceplanting.

Well, if you're giggling in a manner that could be noticable by anyone, then who's the problem here?

[Replacement]

5 minutes ago, Naraka said:

No one compares Regen without IOs to other sets without IOs because no one cares for the circumstances of fights that are that far below standard play.

Exactly standard, actually.  

 

These conversations where the entire value of a set hinges completely on how it performs under one precise best layout are exhausting and completely miss what it means for a set to be considered good (i.e. fun).

 

And no, don't give me the "it's just not for you/your playstyle" response. I prefer the click-heavy approach of the set and it's just not good at it for 40 levels.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I for one am just at complete disbelief that anyone would even defend the set, which makes fighting for a change for the set that much more discouraging. It's like, if we can't even agree that Regen is hurting, then there is literally nothing in this game that people can agree on. Not one single damn thing, and if we have to argue our case against Regen, that gives little hope at all for anything else in game that may need work. So at this point, I'm taking off the gloves and walking out of the ring. It's just not worth the effort. In other words, you win, my man.

 

 

 

Well, to state my opinion on the matter, I'm also in utter disbelief people don't see how ridiculous they sound that they can't be made even more utterly unkillable and continue to ask for more, not only equally broken for every set but also more braindead in the process.

 

Even more crazy, we all do agree how broken it is but that broken-ness is defended. Further still, those that would rather defend the status quo instead of pushing to make everyone broken, we're gaslit, as if that perspective is ludicrous? Yeah, it's pretty wild...

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Power creep is only really attained if it adds to the top.  E.g. making Empathy as good as Nature isn't power creep since you can only have one Support set on your character.  That's just diversity.

 

If you don't want Regen buffed, focus on that.  These power creep comments just feel like scare tactics against the principle of improving any underperformers at all.

 

I already know that. You misunderstood if you think I meant slight tweaks to Regen would be too much power creep. My point was that a lot of sets, even high performing ones, would need buffs more than Regen if we are forced to look at them through the lens of no IO’s, and, as you acknowledge by stating the opposite, buffing the top sets IS power creep.

 

Example: my Storm Summoning characters need no buffs. It’s a top tier set and you better not even try to buff it.  BUT. If we are forced to negate the existence of IO’s and Incarnates and inspirations as Solarverse insists we must and all that good stuff, what you’re left with is a set that does insane knockback instead of knockdown... if it has enough endurance to use powers at all (it usually won’t). But we shouldn’t fix that because all those resources DO exist. IOW, looking at it through that lens isn’t helpful. We can’t pretend like people can’t patch up their builds with IO’s/Incarnates/Inspirations when they.. can.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

Just now, Naraka said:

 

Well, to state my opinion on the matter, I'm also in utter disbelief people don't see how ridiculous they sound that they can't be made even more utterly unkillable and continue to ask for more, not only equally broken for every set but also more braindead in the process.

 

Even more crazy, we all do agree how broken it is but that broken-ness is defended. Further still, those that would rather defend the status quo instead of pushing to make everyone broken, we're gaslit, as if that perspective is ludicrous? Yeah, it's pretty wild...

 

Wait, are you talking about PvP??? I rerally hope yuo are not talking about PvP...

[Naraka]

12 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Power creep is only really attained if it adds to the top.  E.g. making Empathy as good as Nature isn't power creep since you can only have one Support set on your character.  That's just diversity.

 

 

Buffing the melee attack sets (pick any) in conjunction with buffing Regen would then qualify as power creep by your definition then 

[Solarverse]

Just now, arcane said:

 

Example: my Storm Summoning characters need no buffs. It’s a top tier set and you better not even try to buff it.  BUT. If we are forced to negate the existence of IO’s and Incarnates and inspirations as Solarverse insists we must and all that good stuff,

 

 

Wait, what? How did this become Solarverse's standards? Correct me if I am wrong, but that has always been the standard used by both the original devs and the current devs. So why turn this around on me, like it is some unwritten standard that I am expecting you to adhere to? That's not on me, man...

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Wait, what? How did this become Solarverse's standards? Correct me if I am wrong, but that has always been the standard used by both the original devs and the current devs. So why turn this around on me, like it is some unwritten standard that I am expecting you to adhere to? That's not on me, man...

If we’re looking at SO only builds, Regen isn’t even bad relatively speaking because tons of stuff is that bad and worse. I provided one example.

 

Quick Recovery alone makes it top tier within SO play. So if you want to talk SO builds, I disagree even more that Regen needs help. If you want to acknowledge the role of IO’s and Incarnates and Inspirations on the other hand, I can refer you to previous posts.

 

Also note the exact standard you’re referring to is SO’s *at +0x1*. If Regen is having trouble at that level, you’re doing it wrong.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane