Et Tu, Brutus? The Brute Bible

[Sovera]

33 minutes ago, Chargestone said:

What? There were so many bugs, in fact it was probably the most borked of all sets.

 

It's not in middle of the road. You can get your attack chain really early, it's ridiculously strong at early levels. It's light on endurance and recharge, the lockout is really stupid, but you can bypass it using BU. Thanks to the fix, Shred is monstrous. As a Broot, you get savage leap early, it's really good with procs [3 is enough].

 

I have no idea where you're getting this opinion from. Such a shame.

 

From testing I guess. Try a pylon or Trapdoor test in the Scrapper forums and let us know what times you got.

[Lazarillo]

I feel like it's worth noting that /Dark, /Willpower, and /Shield are the only defense sets that give protection to Terrorize, which is the only status hole that can't be compensated for elsewhere in a build.  To that end, I feel like they deserve more respect, at least for people planning to play through a significant portion of the content.

[Apparition]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I used to think I had pretty solid builds using what I thought were great (or at least fun and concept fitting) powersets but it's become quite apparent that they're all grossly inferior to what the procmonster crowd is pushing.

 

Threads like this are gonna go round and round until we start laying rules for what's being compared. But knowing that we'll never agree on the rules... just... bah.

 

Now you know why I have been pushing for two and a half years now for damage procs to be nerfed to the ground.  They really need it.  They break the balance between power sets and even entire ATs completely.  IMO, Captain Powerhouse had the right idea when he posted back in 2019 that they should be tied to the AT's damage scalar.

 

 

4 hours ago, Obsinious said:

Yeah he also put shield in B which is pretty XD

 

Shield is very good, but it's worst on Brutes as the +dam from AAO is pretty meaningless on Brutes.  If you're going to play Shield, you're much better off playing it on a Tanker or Scrapper instead.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

I feel like it's worth noting that /Dark, /Willpower, and /Shield are the only defense sets that give protection to Terrorize, which is the only status hole that can't be compensated for elsewhere in a build.  To that end, I feel like they deserve more respect, at least for people planning to play through a significant portion of the content.

Doesn't help you until the end game, but Hybrid Melee provides protection against Terrorize and Confuse.

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Uun said:

Doesn't help you until the end game, but Hybrid Melee provides protection against Terrorize and Confuse.

That also only has 50% uptime at best, so I feel like it's still doesn't overcome what a boon innate Terrorize protection is.  Confusion less so, since Tactics can provide that, albeit at low mag, but enough to constantly hold back at least one stack, but that's where Hybrid as a "backup" works a little better.

[ninja surprise]

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I feel like it's worth noting that /Dark, /Willpower, and /Shield are the only defense sets that give protection to Terrorize, which is the only status hole that can't be compensated for elsewhere in a build.  To that end, I feel like they deserve more respect, at least for people planning to play through a significant portion of the content.

 

Does the Terrorize have to land a hit? It seems like my Super Reflexes toons are rarely terrorized.

 

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

For example I always pick Focused Accuracy because I loathe being debuffed, but how often do I run content where I am accuracy debuffed? I could take Gloom, but I don't, thus my damage is hurt for the sake of lazy security.

 

I stumbled on putting the +Perception proc in Focused Accuracy and after some playtime realized I wasn't getting blinded nearly as much, if ever. From that point on I was sold. 

Being blind and standing there stupidly while trying to inspcombine a yellow is really bad for DPS.

[Sovera]

23 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Does the Terrorize have to land a hit? It seems like my Super Reflexes toons are rarely terrorized.

 

 

I stumbled on putting the +Perception proc in Focused Accuracy and after some playtime realized I wasn't getting blinded nearly as much, if ever. From that point on I was sold. 

Being blind and standing there stupidly while trying to inspcombine a yellow is really bad for DPS.

 

Being debuffed by CoT, Banished Pantheon, Tsoo, Cabal, etc, is not something the +perception unique saves us from though, though it does help with the blinds, yeah.

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Being debuffed by CoT, Banished Pantheon, Tsoo, Cabal, etc, is not something the +perception unique saves us from though, though it does help with the blinds, yeah.

 

That's what defense is for. 🙂

[Lazarillo]

38 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Does the Terrorize have to land a hit? It seems like my Super Reflexes toons are rarely terrorized.

It generally does, though the protection you can get depends on the source.  IIRC, vectored defenses aren't useful against the most common Terrorize-inducing skills (Longbow pets and enemies that use the Terrorize skill just flat out), though it can be against some of them (KoV, for example).

[Sovera]

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's what defense is for. 🙂

 

Tell me how that goes with Cabal's Hurricane 😜

[aethereal]

7 hours ago, Chargestone said:

What? There were so many bugs, in fact it was probably the most borked of all sets.

 

Savage melee bug fixes in the last page:

 

Hemorrhage got a change to fiery embrace damage.  No impact unless you were pairing Savage with Fiery Aura, and the uptime on Fiery Embrace is such that it's not a huge deal with the change.

 

Savage Strike got:  A fiery embrace change, a PvP change, and a Scrapper-only critical damage change.  Only impact for PvE Brutes is if paired with Fiery Aura.

 

Shred got damage buffs to PvE and PvP:  PvE change was from 1.17 scale to 1.26 scale (7.7% increase in damage).  PvP had a much higher change.

 

Rending Flurry got an endurance cost decrease and a PvP damage fix.

 

Maiming Slash got scrapper-only changes.

 

Total impact to a Brute, in PvE, who does not pair it with Fiery Aura:  One (not-terribly-good) power got a 7.7% damage increase, one power got an endurance cost decrease.

[Greentea]

<deleted>

 

That's nice of you to show the patch notes, but I don't understand your point? [By the way, there's more bugs, you do know they don't post everything, right?]

 

I don't know if you did played old savage, it was horrible. Now, it should be A tier, I have Savage/Bio and Savage/Dark, both amazing combos.

[Greentea]

9 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

From testing I guess. Try a pylon or Trapdoor test in the Scrapper forums and let us know what times you got.

 ...what?

 

Does people nowadays cares about proc monster builds? No offense, but I don't think proc builds is a good example of trying to show Savage Melee doesn't suck. If I recall, proc builds usually contains procs mostly.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Chargestone said:

 ...what?

 

Does people nowadays cares about proc monster builds? No offense, but I don't think proc builds is a good example of trying to show Savage Melee doesn't suck. If I recall, proc builds usually contains procs mostly.

 

So, you have no metrics about it behaving well other than your 'feeling'? If you'd check the Trapdoor thread there are many people posting and not all are proc monster builds.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Chargestone said:

 ...what?

 

Does people nowadays cares about proc monster builds? No offense, but I don't think proc builds is a good example of trying to show Savage Melee doesn't suck. If I recall, proc builds usually contains procs mostly.

 

A good way to find out if a set sucks is to compare it to all the other sets in a controlled environment using the same armor set for all your tests. No procmonster builds needed. Pylons are an excellent test of a set's single target DPS, regardless of how the character is built. Same goes for the Trapdoor missions. If max diff is too hard for the builds you run, drop it to +0/x8. Or +0/x4. As long as it remains the same throughout your testing, it'll be fair.

[Greentea]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

So, you have no metrics about it behaving well other than your 'feeling'? If you'd check the Trapdoor thread there are many people posting and not all are proc monster builds.

I don't have to.

 

There's already one, Savage/Bio did time in Trapdoor mission. Though, I have no idea if it's filled with procs.

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

A good way to find out if a set sucks is to compare it to all the other sets in a controlled environment using the same armor set for all your tests. No procmonster builds needed. Pylons are an excellent test of a set's single target DPS, regardless of how the character is built. Same goes for the Trapdoor missions. If max diff is too hard for the builds you run, drop it to +0/x8. Or +0/x4. As long as it remains the same throughout your testing, it'll be fair.

Unfortunately, the design space is simply too complex and the data points too sparse. For this sort of statistical method to have much value, you need an enormous body of data - far more than is contained in a few popular threads on this board.

 

Even then, you're falling squarely into the McNamara Fallacy by focusing on metrics which aren't particularly reflective of actual game play.

 

To put this in perspective, even with the vast amounts of data provided by warcraftlogs, a much simpler design space and far more limited target content, projecting that design space onto a single dimension is still nearly impossible. To do so in CoH with a few data points? You're unlikely to get answers you didn't already know.

[InvaderStych]

9 hours ago, Chargestone said:

[By the way, there's more bugs, you do know they don't post everything, right?]

 

What is it that you believe was patched/changed in Savage which we were not told was patched/changed? 

 

The biggest bump Savage got in P3 was the fix for scrappers that corrected the critical scale for ... crap ... I forget if it is MS or SS.  Whichever one is 2 tics of DoT.  That one was doing half the critical damage it was supposed to, which was fixed.  Pretty much every other fix in P3 was either for Fire Armor (FE interaction) or PvP.

 

Hemorrhage changes (over time) were all publicized, afaik, and it's still a questionable pick at best on any AT.

 

I ❤️ Savage Melee; I've several of them, and it is a solid set - but let's not start the rumor mill about "Unpublished Changes" unless you've got data or other evidence to support the claim.  Thanks.

 

As @Hjarki has correctly stated - there are enough variables in these things already, we don't need to go around chasing shadows and rumors.

Edited January 24, 2022 by InvaderStych

[Sovera]

24 minutes ago, Chargestone said:

I don't have to.

 

There's already one, Savage/Bio did time in Trapdoor mission. Though, I have no idea if it's filled with procs.

 

I do not want to sound confrontative but with your refusal to spend 15 minutes total giving us numbers your original post on Savage is about your gut feelings.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Unfortunately, the design space is simply too complex and the data points too sparse. For this sort of statistical method to have much value, you need an enormous body of data - far more than is contained in a few popular threads on this board.

 

Even then, you're falling squarely into the McNamara Fallacy by focusing on metrics which aren't particularly reflective of actual game play.

 

To put this in perspective, even with the vast amounts of data provided by warcraftlogs, a much simpler design space and far more limited target content, projecting that design space onto a single dimension is still nearly impossible. To do so in CoH with a few data points? You're unlikely to get answers you didn't already know.

 

Oh, c'mon, this ain't rocket surgery. What can be gathered in game and worked out on paper is going to end up being highly descriptive across the vast majority of this game's reality.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Oh, c'mon, this ain't rocket surgery. What can be gathered in game and worked out on paper is going to end up being highly descriptive across the vast majority of this game's reality.

 

 

Pretty much. While what Hjarki said is correct CoH is a much simpler game. Don't tell me we run ten times the Trapdoor mission and don't get an average time for a certain set's performance.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Pretty much. While what Hjarki said is correct CoH is a much simpler game. Don't tell me we run ten times the Trapdoor mission and don't get an average time for a certain set's performance.

You get an average time for your particular interpretation of a set and how it synergizes with another particular set. It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the set itself in isolation. You also bring a degree of subjectivity with the player and the choices/abilities they bring to the table.

 

You can eliminate these factors - if you have a large enough data set. Unfortunately, we don't.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Hjarki

[Makobola]

 

20 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Does the Terrorize have to land a hit? It seems like my Super Reflexes toons are rarely terrorized.

 

 

I stumbled on putting the +Perception proc in Focused Accuracy and after some playtime realized I wasn't getting blinded nearly as much, if ever. From that point on I was sold. 

Being blind and standing there stupidly while trying to inspcombine a yellow is really bad for DPS.

 

This is some QoL in terms of gameplay; which helps a lot versus certain enemy groups that debuff strongly. Getting hit by a lot of -tohit debuffs definitely sucks as well; although this is usually where defense helps a lot.

 

23 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I feel like it's worth noting that /Dark, /Willpower, and /Shield are the only defense sets that give protection to Terrorize, which is the only status hole that can't be compensated for elsewhere in a build.  To that end, I feel like they deserve more respect, at least for people planning to play through a significant portion of the content.

 

This makes sense, I'm thinking this is the case for certain enemy groups because from what I remember mostly magic-based enemies would you need to deal with Terrorize

[Makobola]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:07 AM, Uun said:

If you have to resort to pools and incarnates to be survivable, you're playing it wrong. Having perma Particle Shielding is much more useful. You don't mention that it has a big hole to cold damage, which can be an issue fighting BP in end game. I like Rad Armor, but no way is it sturdier than Dark or Electric.

Does fine against straight up damage, but folds like a wet noodle when hit with -defense or -regen. I would place it in the C tier.

Placing SR in the C tier is absurd. Its definitely sturdier than Willpower or Fire. Not many layers? How about the scaling damage resists that can cap resistance to all damage types. Really doesn't need +absorb or +regen.

You do know you can slot other defense sets than LOTG? My SR has none, nor does it have Ageless, Support, Superior Conditioning or Physical Perfection.

These are some good points and things I can add into the edit; there's a few things I took off of memory and haven't compared it from a numbers perspective. I do agree with the thoughts for SR since it easily softcaps without any particular need for set bonuses. 

Rad armor's absorb shield is pretty great; elementals are something that can be filled in with a decent amount of ease though due to purples/winter sets, but granted it is still a hole.

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Even then, you're falling squarely into the McNamara Fallacy by focusing on metrics which aren't particularly reflective of actual game play.

 

Just curious if you have any algorithms for measuring 'fun'?

 

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

Don't tell me we run ten times the Trapdoor mission and don't get an average time for a certain set's performance.

 

Player, build, etc all can have large impacts on a time. I do agree that it is a good measure against one's self. (I see now Hjarki has similar reply)

 

 

@Makobola I see you've added some more details. This is encouraging.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Troo