Accuracy vs toHit. I have questions.

[Ukase]

So...I'm a bit embarrassed. There's either something wrong with my literacy skills, my math skills, or both. 

I'll pose my question, and maybe I'll sort it out while writing it down, but not likely. 

I'm having a problem with the AccMods formula. 

 

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

Specifically, I am looking at this due to my perception of whiffing with Fault, on a Stone melee scrapper. 

Unslotted, detailed info shows a base accuracy of 80%. I only have one slot in it, a Frozen Blast Accuracy/Damage/Endurance. Per the Detailed info on this Winter-O, the accuracy boost is 18%. 
Per my combat attributes, my total accuracy set bonuses are 9%.  

So...
AccMods = .80 X (1.0 +.18 + .09)
AccMods = .80 X (1.27)
AccMods = 1.016

So...what's this showing? Why does my math show 1.016, and the detailed info showing accuracy of .94? 
(FYI - I unslotted the enhancement to see this same detailed info tab to get the base accuracy of .80, then re-slotted it) 

What terms/numbers have I confused here? I don't think my math is wrong, but I must be missing something - is the accuracy value in this detailed info is representing something else?

 

 

 

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So...I'm a bit embarrassed. There's either something wrong with my literacy skills, my math skills, or both. 

I'll pose my question, and maybe I'll sort it out while writing it down, but not likely. 

I'm having a problem with the AccMods formula. 

 

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

Specifically, I am looking at this due to my perception of whiffing with Fault, on a Stone melee scrapper. 

Unslotted, detailed info shows a base accuracy of 80%. I only have one slot in it, a Frozen Blast Accuracy/Damage/Endurance. Per the Detailed info on this Winter-O, the accuracy boost is 18%. 
Per my combat attributes, my total accuracy set bonuses are 9%.  

So...
AccMods = .80 X (1.0 +.18 + .09)
AccMods = .80 X (1.27)
AccMods = 1.016

So...what's this showing? Why does my math show 1.016, and the detailed info showing accuracy of .94? 
(FYI - I unslotted the enhancement to see this same detailed info tab to get the base accuracy of .80, then re-slotted it) 

What terms/numbers have I confused here? I don't think my math is wrong, but I must be missing something - is the accuracy value in this detailed info is representing something else?

 

 

 

Detailed Info doesn't account for global values, and rounds up/down.

 

0.80 * (1.0 + 0.18) = 0.944

0.944 rounded down = 0.94

[Bionic_Flea]

That number doesn't include global acc bonuses.  Just like clicks don't show the recharge from Hasten or other global bonuses.

 

So what you have is .8 x 1.18 = .944

[Ukase]

Well, that clears that up, thanks!
 

[oedipus_tex]

Yeah like the rest said, your globals aren't included.

 

In case you're curious why, it's to prevent stuff like stepping into the aura of a teammate's Tactics or getting hit with a temporary -ToHit debuff and it resulting in confusing info in the detailed power panel. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

In case you're curious why, it's to prevent stuff like stepping into the aura of a teammate's Tactics or getting hit with a temporary -ToHit debuff and it resulting in confusing info in the detailed power panel. 

 

Exactly.  They deliberately made it confusing so players wouldn't be confused when checking the Detailed Info specs at times when they might be confused about what was going on with their powers.  Because it's less confusing to make it more confusing, thus preventing confusion.

 

You can actually smell the Emmert every time you open a Detailed Info window.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

You can actually smell the Emmert every time you open a Detailed Info window.

Wasn't Emmert already gone by the time we got to see real power info? If it was up to him, we never would have seen anything under the hood.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Exactly.  They deliberately made it confusing so players wouldn't be confused when checking the Detailed Info specs at times when they might be confused about what was going on with their powers.  Because it's less confusing to make it more confusing, thus preventing confusion.

 

You can actually smell the Emmert every time you open a Detailed Info window.

 

 

In this case I agree with the decision not to include globals, unless they developed a way to distinguish set bonuses from the general ToHit and Accuracy bonuses that tend to just float around in the game from buffs and debuffs. This is real tricky though, because there are sources of Accuracy from weird places like the Death from Below sewer trial that are basically "always on," and Tactics cast by self is probably on most of the time too, versus the random Tactics of some other player racing by. The window would also have to constantly update to avoid freezing an inaccurate value in the moments after Aim or Build Up. So, justified in this case I think.

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, Uun said:

Wasn't Emmert already gone by the time we got to see real power info? If it was up to him, we never would have seen anything under the hood.

 

Real Numbers was released in early 2008, which means it was started some time in 2007, before NC acquired the IP (at the end of 2007) and Cryptic started pulling staff out.  Emmert was still in charge at that time.  If he hadn't had the sale of Co* and development of the Marvel game (which eventually became Champions Online) in front of him, he undoubtedly would have put the kibosh on Real Numbers before the first line of code was written.  I really don't think it's far off from the truth to say that Real Numbers was only implemented because his attention was split between multiple objectives at that time (sales talks, trying to get a foot in the door with Marvel, and keeping Co* going), or that it exists in its current form because, as you note, he despised giving players hard numbers, thus the odd obfuscation of global effects.

 

That was what I was referring to when I made that comment.  It's the sort of restriction he'd insist on, just to hold something back from the players.

[ForeverLaxx]

13 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It's the sort of restriction he'd insist on, just to hold something back from the players

I can't recall for sure if he ever detailed exactly why he didn't want players to know the hard numbers, but I'd imagine it would have something to do with a misguided angst towards Power Gamers and min/maxers. Many devs seem to despise those players, openly or otherwise, for reasons. Usually those reasons center around a distaste for people trying to "break" the game, and sometimes those reasons are from a misplaced since of pride or ego. All hiding the numbers was really doing was delaying the inevitable. When players want "real numbers," they're going to get real numbers -- even if they have to do rigorous testing for months to get it.

 

Just look at Arcana, who did so much work that she eventually had her numbers dubbed Arcanatime because she proved that the numbers shown on paper weren't quite the same as the numbers experienced in-game. She may still have done this anyway had we been shown the real numbers from the start, but it would have saved everyone a bunch of time if Jack wasn't so against players being informed.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

In this case I agree with the decision not to include globals, unless they developed a way to distinguish set bonuses from the general ToHit and Accuracy bonuses that tend to just float around in the game from buffs and debuffs. This is real tricky though, because there are sources of Accuracy from weird places like the Death from Below sewer trial that are basically "always on," and Tactics cast by self is probably on most of the time too, versus the random Tactics of some other player racing by. The window would also have to constantly update to avoid freezing an inaccurate value in the moments after Aim or Build Up. So, justified in this case I think.

 

When people are looking at power stats, they want to know the actual current stats, not the stats minus global effects, or the stats minus someone else's buff, or the stats if they're standing three feet to the left.  The point of Detailed Info is detailed information, it exists solely to give us the full revelation on the power.  We're not interested in base stats, we can get those by typing [Power Name] in the chat box (which brings up the unenhanced, unbuffed version of the power's Detailed Info window), or looking at City of Data, or checking Mids'.  We're looking at a power's info window because we want real totals, we want to know exactly when a power is going to recharge, we want to know exactly how much endurance it's going to cost, we want to know exactly what our hit chance is, et cetera.  To date, it hasn't done that, which leads to confusion like what @Ukase experienced when looking at Fault's hit chance stat.

 

And they already had everything they needed to make that happen, including the distinctions you feel are important.  The combat attribs window is dynamic.  They could've used the same code to make the Detailed Info window dynamic.  One look would tell you that your hit chance equaled X%, which Accuracy modifiers were in effect, the amount of each modifier, everything.  That's been possible since Real Numbers was in beta.  So, respectfully, I disagree with your disagreement.

 

Oh, and if anyone on the HC team is reading this, fix the goddamn Regeneration stat display, please.  The way it's currently presented is horribly inaccurate.  It should be displaying time between Regen ticks, not HP/s.  That's how Regeneration works in this game, that's how it should be presented to the player.  As it is now, it's only barely useful, and then only if you're willing to grab a calculator and do the math yourself.

[oedipus_tex]

17 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

When people are looking at power stats, they want to know the actual current stats, not the stats minus global effects, or the stats minus someone else's buff, or the stats if they're standing three feet to the left.  The point of Detailed Info is detailed information, it exists solely to give us the full revelation on the power.  We're not interested in base stats, we can get those by typing [Power Name] in the chat box (which brings up the unenhanced, unbuffed version of the power's Detailed Info window), or looking at City of Data, or checking Mids'.  We're looking at a power's info window because we want real totals, we want to know exactly when a power is going to recharge, we want to know exactly how much endurance it's going to cost, we want to know exactly what our hit chance is, et cetera.  To date, it hasn't done that, which leads to confusion like what @Ukase experienced when looking at Fault's hit chance stat.

 

 

I can see why you want that information, but again can see why the game presents it the way it does. It shows you values modified by enhancements but not globals, which is fine to me. I'd find it extremely confusing if it displayed all the random buffs and debuffs that might be in play as well, unless these were broken down in a separate number. 

 

For example, Recharge. If I had Hasten on and a power said it Recharged in 60 seconds, it doesn't mean it will actually Recharge in 60 seconds. It will Recharge in 60 seconds only if Hasten happens to last 60 seconds (and no other buffs or debuffs land during that time). If 30 seconds go by and Hasten drops, the power now Recharges in whatever time is now left. You can track Recharge numbers by turning on that feature and see them recalculate in real time on the hotbar, that's really the only way to do it. The game has now way to know what "perma-Hasten" is an so on--that's the realm of Mids.

Edited March 18, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can't recall for sure if he ever detailed exactly why he didn't want players to know the hard numbers, but I'd imagine it would have something to do with a misguided angst towards Power Gamers and min/maxers. Many devs seem to despise those players, openly or otherwise, for reasons. Usually those reasons center around a distaste for people trying to "break" the game, and sometimes those reasons are from a misplaced since of pride or ego. All hiding the numbers was really doing was delaying the inevitable. When players want "real numbers," they're going to get real numbers -- even if they have to do rigorous testing for months to get it.

 

As I recall from his posts, he expected players to consider them irrelevant.  He figured players would treat Co* the same way they treated other games... games with locked abilities which were only affected in specific ways by other specific abilities.  Games with combos which unlocked after pressing certain key sequences.  Games with static cooldowns on spells and attacks.  Games which weren't mechanically similar to Co*.  It was only after Red Tomax put up the first City of Data and gave us the first real numbers that Emmert finally (grudgingly, going by the lack of commentary about the subject from that point onward) accepted the relevance of power stats in the eyes of players, but only because he couldn't put the djinn back in the bottle.  I don't know if he ever realized that hiding information from players, in a game which created the necessity for that information by giving players so much flexibility, was a mistake.  But he did eventually stop trying to prevent us from having that information.  So there is that, for what it's worth.

[tidge]

17 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can't recall for sure if he ever detailed exactly why he didn't want players to know the hard numbers...

 

I always assumed it was because Statesman was nominally an Invulnerability Tanker that could move around with all of his toggles on. (ehem, Unyielding Stance)

[SwitchFade]

19 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can't recall for sure if he ever detailed exactly why he didn't want players to know the hard numbers, but I'd imagine it would have something to do with a misguided angst towards Power Gamers and min/maxers. Many devs seem to despise those players, openly or otherwise, for reasons. Usually those reasons center around a distaste for people trying to "break" the game, and sometimes those reasons are from a misplaced since of pride or ego. All hiding the numbers was really doing was delaying the inevitable. When players want "real numbers," they're going to get real numbers -- even if they have to do rigorous testing for months to get it.

 

Just look at Arcana, who did so much work that she eventually had her numbers dubbed Arcanatime because she proved that the numbers shown on paper weren't quite the same as the numbers experienced in-game. She may still have done this anyway had we been shown the real numbers from the start, but it would have saved everyone a bunch of time if Jack wasn't so against players being informed.

He was clear about it, he felt it was too much for a player to consider, that players would be overwhelmed. His whole concept of what a player should experience was biased towards simplicity and ignorance, as evinced by the game design he has enforced on everything he has worked on.

[Black Zot]

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

He was clear about it, he felt it was too much for a player to consider, that players would be overwhelmed. His whole concept of what a player should experience was biased towards simplicity and ignorance, as evinced by the game design he has enforced on everything he has worked on.

 

So his whole game-making philosophy is built on projection?

[ForeverLaxx]

13 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

So his whole game-making philosophy is built on projection?

More or less. There is that famous line that I'm probably paraphrasing wherein he wanted the game to feel more like Mario defeating Bowser, and we're talking the original Super Mario Bros on the NES kind of game feel.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure he even understood what he wanted. Jack always loved to talk about feelings and emotions regarding game design rather than hard data. He was an Ideas Man who found the right group of programmers and artists to bring his vision to life. Trying to step outside of that was when things became questionable.

Edited March 20, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

More or less. There is that famous line that I'm probably paraphrasing wherein he wanted the game to feel more like Mario defeating Bowser, and we're talking the original Super Mario Bros on the NES kind of game feel.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure he even understood what he wanted. Jack always loved to talk about feelings and emotions regarding game design rather than hard data. He was an Ideas Man who found the right group of programmers and artists to bring his vision to life. Trying to step outside of that was when things became questionable.

It does bring up the question...does Jack still play CoH? We will probably never know.  He would need to be incognito on any public server he joined.

[ForeverLaxx]

29 minutes ago, Snarky said:

It does bring up the question...does Jack still play CoH? We will probably never know.  He would need to be incognito on any public server he joined.

Honestly, I doubt it. Part of me believes he's petty enough to love that CoH was shut down while his company's other projects are still technically running (with the exception of Magic Legends, which died before the beta ended), even if only on life support.

 

Considering he was trying to poach players during Champions Online's development, I'd rather he stay away regardless of his opinion of this IP.

[Xenosone]

You want aa much tohit as you can get. Kismet, tactics. Thats your start value. The acc multiplier works off that.  Same amount of acc is going be a larger hit chance with more tohit. 

 

Thats the simple explanation.