Your Opinion on Sets and ATs that Over or Underperform

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, SaintD said:

I think I/O set bonuses shouldn't provide direct percentage RES and DEF like they do. They should provide a percentage increase to your existing RES and DEF as if they're an enhancement bonus that isn't affected by ED. You need to actually have RES or DEF from another source like your primary, secondary, or pool powers to improve.

The only exceptions would be the super special uniques like in Steadfast Protection that give a flat bonus.

Which would be a nil impact on melee characters and a far bigger one on squishy characters forcing those characters into more teaming situations. I can't say I'm for that really. I need far bigger data points as I clearly find teams which go against this, but I get on a lot of melee heavy teams these days. With the population going downward, I expect more of the same.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Which would be a nil impact on melee characters and a far bigger one on squishy characters forcing those characters into more teaming situations. I can't say I'm for that really. I need far bigger data points as I clearly find teams which go against this, but I get on a lot of melee heavy teams these days. With the population going downward, I expect more of the same.

Considering how many people say ridiculous things like "you can soft cap everything in this game so what is the point of [half of the AT's]", it sounds like it might be warranted. Sure, you can debate with them about the added benefits of toggle mez protection, DDR, higher hit points, etc., but defense bonuses definitely broke the collective brains around these parts.

 

I have never had a problem surviving on "squishy" AT's with 20-25% defense so "impact" would be non-existent.

 

Counterargument though: you should probably get something in return for gimping your poor character's damage output with weak sets like Thunderstrike and Artillery. Though maybe that's just the cost of using "yellow" sets. Would need to see numbers on SaintD's proposal. But it's not without precedent. +Damage and +Healing bonuses and so on only go as far as your powers and AT multipliers let them.

Edited April 19, 2022 by arcane

[Uun]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

you should probably get something in return for gimping your poor character's damage output with weak sets like Thunderstrike and Artillery.

I don't consider either set to be weak or gimping your damage output, unless you're basing that on the lack of procs. If you were to 6-slot Thunderstrike, you would be at +143% for damage (far in excess of the ED max) and would be at +69% for accuracy, endurance and recharge. If you don't need the 6-piece set defense bonus, you can drop the dam/end and still be well over ED max for damage. 6-slotted Artillery provides +101% damage (over ED max), +90% recharge, +69% accuracy, +48% endurance and +26% range. The range enhancement is really useful in the 40-foot cones and would increase, not decrease damage output.

[oedipus_tex]

A related analogy I gave to someone recently about the strength of Dominators was: create a Scrapper and a Dominator duo. Have the Scrapper skip all their Armor powers on the theory that the Dominator's controls will be sufficient.

 

The analogy isn't perfect, but is very close to what playing an average Dominator is, except a Dominator gets 321 fewer hit points.

That's why you see the top Dominator builds tending to be what they are. Sets that break the main mold of the class either by allowing mostly ranged (Fire Assault) healing (Dark or Psi Assault), way outliers on damage/control (Plant), or overpowered APP powers (Sleet). Roll something random that actually fits withing the classes' main model, like Elec/Thorns, Gravity/Energy, Ice/Electric, Mind/Martial, lots of others I could pull out randomly, and it's a different experience. It's kinda fun to play on a knifes edge at times, but I'm not sure the payoff is totally there. Especially in AV fights where the whole "blapper with literally zero armor or buff/debuff" concept IMO falls on its face.

[Without_Pause]

42 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The analogy isn't perfect, but is very close to what playing an average Dominator is, except a Dominator gets 321 fewer hit points.

The analogy is terrible since the Scrapper would have hardly any controls and certainly not at the level of a Dom. I've seen my Fort have less issues with end draining hordes of Mu than a melee character with some level of end drain protection simply because you can't end drain if you can't attack. I've been soloing a few controllers recently and there are number of mobs which offer zero or very little incoming damage, and yes, Grav is in that list. The main issue is the Dom/Controller getting mezzed or how fast they can mez a boss, but that is easily taken care of without Def/Res based IOs.

 

This says nothing about the fact that the Dom/Controller could do damage at range versus a Scrapper needing to be in melee.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Without_Pause

[oedipus_tex]

25 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

The analogy is terrible since the Scrapper would have hardly any controls and certainly not at the level of a Dom.

 

 

The Scrapper in the analogy is in a duo with a Dominator.

[Without_Pause]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The Scrapper in the analogy is in a duo with a Dominator.

It is still a terrible analogy. The fact that the Dom would be carrying the Scrapper in that situation proves they are doing better than what you are implying.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Without_Pause said:

It is still a terrible analogy. The fact that the Dom would be carrying the Scrapper in that situation proves they are doing better than what you are implying.

 

 

I'm afraid I don't follow what you mean by the "Dom carrying the Scrapper." I feel like a Scrapper would keep their armor powers on because controls won't carry them through. That's the point. That is the situation the Dominator is always in.

 

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm being pedantic by underlining the point: the Dominator has to rely on those controls to survive. They don't get Armor. They don't get Buff/Debuff. They are the only class like this. They get mezz protection from their Domination and nothing else. 

 

You might think Dominators must have excellent ranged damage. But which Fireball below belongs to Scrappers, and which to Dominators?

 

 

 

Most Dominator's source of AoE comes from three places:

• Mediocre ranged, slow casting cones
• 15ft radius PBAoEs (sometimes smaller)
• APP blasts, which aren't unique to them. Any class that doesn't get AoE blasts in their primaries or secondaries gets this, including Scrappers, Brutes, Tankers, Masterminds, and Stalkers  

 

 

There is no Dominator set with a ranged spherical attack or rain DoT, with arguably one exception--Roots, the AoE immobilize in Plant Control. Dominators are not Blasters. They are (mostly) up close fighters. Fiery Assault is considered such a good set in part because it provides excellent damage without engaging in close combat.

 

 

On the single target front, Dominators do have some decent ranged attacks. All of Fire Assault is excellent. Some of the Holds can be procced out for good damage. The Snipe powers are excellent. 

But a lot of sets don't have very good ranged damage. The designers really wanted the class to get up close and personal. It's a great idea and I like what they were going for. I just don't think it totally succeeds. Sometimes things are what they are--and a Dominator is an unarmored character trying to survive close range based mostly on Control powers. You may feel that's an unfair analogy, but I don't think it's far from the mark at all. I think a Scrapper without armor probably would be able to live for a while and thrive until suddenly taking a giant hit and dropping dead, or running into something immune to controls and hitting the floor. The classic Dom experience.

[Without_Pause]

19 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm afraid I don't follow what you mean by the "Dom carrying the Scrapper." I feel like a Scrapper would keep their armor powers on because controls won't carry them through. That's the point. That is the situation the Dominator is always in.

I don't follow someone making an argument when specifically stating a case were Scrappers don't use there armors and then saying Scrappers would use them. I feel like we are talking two different things so I see no sense in running around in circles.

[...]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I don't follow someone making an argument when specifically stating a case were Scrappers don't use there armors and then saying Scrappers would use them. I feel like we are talking two different things so I see no sense in running around in circles.

 

Whoosh

[Arbegla]

I think that hardest part about threads like this is determining where the 'line' is.

 

Are we taking +0/1x? or +4/8x? Are we talking pure SO builds? Proc monsters? Purples/PvP/ATOs? That's before taking into consideration any Incarnate powers as well, as those level shifts can help out a lot to balance out some of the purple patch issues. There are a lot of different metrics to consider before saying something is over/under performing in a vacuum.

 

As for those who are saying Masterminds under perform, especially /traps, I do wonder what play style and build you've used, as I have a bot/traps/mu MM that is nearly immortal, and her build isn't even 1/4 of the way done yet.

[Seed22]

On 4/6/2022 at 12:26 PM, Troo said:

 

dude..

 

realistically Regen performs inline with expectations, and in the right hands can begin to overperform. with solid Resists it is pretty tough sans debuffs piling up to cripple recharge and regen. I won't argue -recharge and/or -regen debuffs are real glaring weaknesses that could be looked at.

 

under performers could be

ranged

pain

poison

traps (even though the -res is pretty epic)

force field (just a bit lost in the current game)

 

melee

kinetic

psionic

 

(note some listed may be due to my not fully understanding a set)

Poison provides the best ST debuffs in the game by level 2 or 4, and washes away the comp by 32/38. It is not, unless you have difficulty using it, an underperforming set in any capacity at all.

 

Regen against maybe +4 with insps and prayer can be made to do what’s easy for any other armor set in the game. That’s not skill, that’s…it needs help.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Seed22

[Without_Pause]

8 minutes ago, ... said:

 

Whoosh

I don't care beyond responding here. I'm done with petty internet arguments for today. I've already blocked someone elsewhere. I see no point in trying to convince someone of a point when they are trying to make a different point. More so when I feel like they seem to be supporting their point in a poor manor.

[...]

1 minute ago, Without_Pause said:

when I feel like they seem to be supporting their point in a poor manor.

 

Bolded for emphasis, because you'd do well to look in the mirror. 

 

@oedipus_tex is one of the most level headed and well-written people on this forum. 

[Greldek]

On 4/7/2022 at 1:41 AM, Gulbasaur said:

 

Peacebringers really do need a "modernisation" pass. In the time before IOs, mage-tanks were unique. Now blasters can swan in with their bling bling builds with 45% defence and resists. They're solid tanks, but their damage powers are either nukes or very under-tuned. They are great to level and are a Flashbacker's dream because of how well they downscale, but at endgame their niche is suddenly crowded out. 

 

I agree on this. My peacebringer was a blast to lvl up to the mid 40s then just kinda faded into uselessness. 

 

I couldn't tank as good as my tankers or dmg as good as my dmgers. And I was spending the whole fight trying to swap forms to keep up with what was going on. So much work for so little return at high lvls. 

 

I feel like abandoning human form as a combat form and buffing up squid and tank with human form powers would help. You could then focus on being blast with a side of tanker tanky with a side of blast. 

 

As it is, I feel like i should just play a sentinel instead of a PB. 

[capricorpse]

the answer to Energy Blast and Knockback is to have enemies get damaged by surfaces and objects and have it scale off of how fast they were going when they hit!  

[TheZag]

I already have my knockback toon ready to go.  Mag 50 knockback on power push.  I hit hellions in atlas park and they land in kings row.

[desarix]

Mercenary Mastermind comes to mind as needing help, a lot of help.

[Samsupra]

I keep returning to mess around with this game, but even with so many combinations in each AT, there are really only a very few combinations that work with an end game tailored now to a specific meta. Is it because developers now create through polling (which is catering to meta chasers) and no longer objectively making decisions for the betterment of the game itself?

 

Why has Mercenary's sucked since 2005, which is inside of an entire AT that doesn't fit into the 'end game' anyway? Just a general question, and not directed at the current dev team, because this has been ongoing since this game was released. It just makes me ponder why development time was spent on things no developer cared to ever revisit?  We get years of new content that only a select few AT combinations can effectively partake in, because certain game mechanics became outright obsolete for decades. It's a reality in many games, but also baffling to me, because it's effectively content for a specific fraction of the player base. 

 

It's frustrating to be sure, because the end result is that I return after 300+ days played, and still find out that my favorite concepts in theory are still largely unplayable post 50, be it effectively or stylistically vs the meta. I'm a victim of always being most interested in unique and complex playstyles, and mmorpgs rarely reward me for it. I'm a druid on Classic wow being told I can't play the game I want to play. I'm a Mastermind being told I can't play the game how I want to play it. I'm a Controller being told I can't play the game how I want to play it.

 

When I am told to play 3 or so things out of dozens of options, I can't help but only see a very broken game. In the mean time, it's the usual, "*sigh*, I guess I'll play the usual power combination 99% of the player base tells me to play, because it's a waste of my time otherwise". It just seems to me that the value of new content increases dramatically when more of the game that even allows an end game to exist, supports that end game. Alt-itis drives this game, yet it's constantly stifled by limited effective options. Love the passion that brings these old games back, but perhaps a "refocus" is in order so that the game is healthier and not just larger. This is a thought experiment, more than a critique. Don't judge me too harshly for bring these things up.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Samsupra

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, desarix said:

Mercenary Mastermind comes to mind as needing help, a lot of help.

 

I tried rolling a Merc MM once. The enemy critters kept laughing at them, and I swear I saw one of their weapons fire and a cartoonish sign that said "Bang!" came out the end. The other one just had a pointed finger and was yelling "Pew pew pew!"

[Arbegla]

29 minutes ago, Samsupra said:

I keep returning to mess around with this game, but even with so many combinations in each AT, there are really only a very few combinations that work with an end game tailored now to a specific meta. Is it because developers now create through polling (which is catering to meta chasers) and no longer objectively making decisions for the betterment of the game itself?

 

Why has Mercenary's sucked since 2005, which is inside of an entire AT that doesn't fit into the 'end game' anyway? Just a general question, and not directed at the current dev team, because this has been ongoing since this game was released. It just makes me ponder why development time was spent on things no developer cared to ever revisit?  We get years of new content that only a select few AT combinations can effectively partake in, because certain game mechanics became outright obsolete for decades. It's a reality in many games, but also baffling to me, because it's effectively content for a specific fraction of the player base. 

 

It's frustrating to be sure, because the end result is that I return after 300+ days played, and still find out that my favorite concepts in theory are still largely unplayable post 50, be it effectively or stylistically vs the meta. I'm a victim of always being most interested in unique and complex playstyles, and mmorpgs rarely reward me for it. I'm a druid on Classic wow being told I can't play the game I want to play. I'm a Mastermind being told I can't play the game how I want to play it. I'm a Controller being told I can't play the game how I want to play it.

 

When I am told to play 3 or so things out of dozens of options, I can't help but only see a very broken game. In the mean time, it's the usual, "*sigh*, I guess I'll play the usual power combination 99% of the player base tells me to play, because it's a waste of my time otherwise". It just seems to me that the value of new content increases dramatically when more of the game that even allows an end game to exist, supports that end game. Alt-itis drives this game, yet it's constantly stifled by limited effective options. Love the passion that brings these old games back, but perhaps a "refocus" is in order so that the game is healthier and not just larger. This is a thought experiment, more than a critique. Don't judge me too harshly for bring these things up.

 

What is this meta you speak of, and why do you cater to it? Literally any combination of AT and powerset, especially Masterminds, can be playable and enjoyable post 50. If anyone is telling you otherwise, they are stuck in a holy trinity mindset, or a 'must go fast, and be the most effective at everything' mindset, which this game does NOT require at all.

[pawstruck]

7 hours ago, Samsupra said:

I keep returning to mess around with this game, but even with so many combinations in each AT, there are really only a very few combinations that work with an end game tailored now to a specific meta. Is it because developers now create through polling (which is catering to meta chasers) and no longer objectively making decisions for the betterment of the game itself?

 

Why has Mercenary's sucked since 2005, which is inside of an entire AT that doesn't fit into the 'end game' anyway? Just a general question, and not directed at the current dev team, because this has been ongoing since this game was released. It just makes me ponder why development time was spent on things no developer cared to ever revisit?  We get years of new content that only a select few AT combinations can effectively partake in, because certain game mechanics became outright obsolete for decades. It's a reality in many games, but also baffling to me, because it's effectively content for a specific fraction of the player base. 

 

It's frustrating to be sure, because the end result is that I return after 300+ days played, and still find out that my favorite concepts in theory are still largely unplayable post 50, be it effectively or stylistically vs the meta. I'm a victim of always being most interested in unique and complex playstyles, and mmorpgs rarely reward me for it. I'm a druid on Classic wow being told I can't play the game I want to play. I'm a Mastermind being told I can't play the game how I want to play it. I'm a Controller being told I can't play the game how I want to play it.

 

When I am told to play 3 or so things out of dozens of options, I can't help but only see a very broken game. In the mean time, it's the usual, "*sigh*, I guess I'll play the usual power combination 99% of the player base tells me to play, because it's a waste of my time otherwise". It just seems to me that the value of new content increases dramatically when more of the game that even allows an end game to exist, supports that end game. Alt-itis drives this game, yet it's constantly stifled by limited effective options. Love the passion that brings these old games back, but perhaps a "refocus" is in order so that the game is healthier and not just larger. This is a thought experiment, more than a critique. Don't judge me too harshly for bring these things up.

 

Agreed, but don't judge me too harshly for responding to a mentality that I think is very wrong. (By the way, I was also a druid in WoW from Classic 'til I quit in BFA).

 

Difference means, by definition, hierarchy. In other words, inasmuch as a thing is different from another, it is either better or worse for the task at hand. In video games this becomes clear by formation of "meta" mindsets. Whether it's Mario vs. Dr. Mario in Smash Bros., Druids vs. pure classes in WoW, or CoX.

 

Like you, I used to be possessed by the double-mindedness of 1) wanting to be off-meta and unique, playing "my way," and 2) wanting to be just as good as the meta builds. This contradictory thinking kept me from a lot of enjoyment I should have had.

 

In this game, which is far more "solved" than Classic WoW, the above way of thinking is particularly ridiculous. You can be ANYthing you want, and you can complete ALL the game's content happily. Almost no team will ever reject you, because the content is pretty easy and it's just fun to team up. If you're playing a Dual Blades stalker and can't stop thinking about how Street Justice has the best Pylon damage, you're really doing it wrong.

 

This is a game where grown adults pretend to be superheroes. A major part of the draw here is that you can create almost anything you can imagine. It's not a job, a contest, or even must of a test of skill lots of the time. (Don't beat me up, everyone!)... Make exactly the hero you want, play the game for fun, and enjoy life.

 

🙂

 

[tidge]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:23 PM, Arbegla said:

I think that hardest part about threads like this is determining where the 'line' is.

 

As for those who are saying Masterminds under perform, especially /traps, I do wonder what play style and build you've used, as I have a bot/traps/mu MM that is nearly immortal, and her build isn't even 1/4 of the way done yet.

 

I also have a Bots/Traps (but w/ Mace) that performs well enough... but I still consider many MM sets to be an under-performing is that the era of crafted Enhancements as the most straightforward way to make the henchmen perform well is to use the global Defense/Resist pieces.. and several sets ONLY have summon henchmen powers to take those pieces, so the T1/T2/T3 henchmen end up not being as well enhanced.

 

MM secondary /Traps specifically allows for a LOT of debuffing, but that doesn't mean that primaries are performing in a reasonable manner. For larffs, I have a "one big Robot" build where I don't summon the T1 or T2 and only rely on the Assault Bot, so the big guy has the sort of aggressive enhancement slotting that I'd like to have in all three henchmen (because I dropped the globals in the summon powers I don't use)... and the mission clear times are terrible. They aren't as bad as a "no henchman" build, but whatta painful experience.

[Marbing]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:23 PM, Arbegla said:

Are we taking +0/1x? or +4/8x? Are we talking pure SO builds? Proc monsters? Purples/PvP/ATOs? That's before taking into consideration any Incarnate powers as well, as those level shifts can help out a lot to balance out some of the purple patch issues. There are a lot of different metrics to consider before saying something is over/under performing in a vacuum.

The way I understand it, the game was intended to be balanced around +0/x1 SO builds. I could be way off on that, but I remember a discussion around this a couple of years ago and the consensus was that this game should absolutely NOT be balanced around +4/x8 IO/Incarnate builds. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 4/21/2022 at 1:42 PM, Arbegla said:

What is this meta you speak of, and why do you cater to it? Literally any combination of AT and powerset, especially Masterminds, can be playable and enjoyable post 50. If anyone is telling you otherwise, they are stuck in a holy trinity mindset, or a 'must go fast, and be the most effective at everything' mindset, which this game does NOT require at all.

 

There's a huge difference between "playable and enjoyable" and actually good.

 

Regen is playable and enjoyable for many people regardless of how much it actually sucks in comparison to the other armors.