Your Opinion on Sets and ATs that Over or Underperform

[TheZag]

(Im not calling out for buffs or nerfs,  just your thoughts on where you feel powersets and ATs are falling performance-wise.)

 

Some sets are nearly identical while others are nothing like the other options for an archtype. There are also tons of ways to measure the effectiveness of a set whether its damage, mitigation, solo or team play, high or low level and numerous other possibilities.

 

What are your opinions on which powersets and archtypes over or underperform?

 

Ill go ahead and say kinetics is overperforming.  I love kinetics but damage is king in this game and a single kinetics user can damage cap a whole team.  Throw in speed boost and its crazy how much damage a single player can buff their team.  Fulcrum Shift was the best and got nerfed a long time ago and is still the best single power in the game (in my opinion)

 

On the other hand, regen kinda sucks.  Nerf regen is the running joke but thats because it was nerfed at least 4 times.  I dont think there is any hope for regen at this point since willpower is basically a 'fixed regen' at this point.  Regen can still be useful but i dont feel like a hero with regen,  I feel like a sidekick that can heal sometimes.

 

For archtypes (and im shooting myself in the foot here) tanks are overperforming.  I mostly play tanks and even i can admit that they are too effective currently.  When your healer friends are bored because you can jump into a full +4x8 mob and never take any damage its hard to deny.  Granted it takes planning and a large cost to make a near invincible tank.  But its still possible and with tank damage buffs it makes me want to remake my brutes as tanks.

 

Finally for my underperforming archtype....masterminds.  I almost went sentinel but mastermind pet level differences are horrible.  Players against +4 mobs are doing less damage and less hit chance but MM pets are 5 and 6 levels below.  Its no secret that their pets do the majority of the damage but if you play higher then +2 you are doing almost nothing with your pets.

 

So thats my starter list.  Feel free to agree or disagree and pick your own over and underperformers.  The only list that is correct is the one you make yourself.  Ill be happy to see yours.

[Glacier Peak]

Cold Domination is the best set. Debuffs are brutal against enemies, buffs are in a good place, and it's easy to use. It's also effective on any of the five ATs that have access to it. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Troo]

34 minutes ago, TheZag said:

On the other hand, regen kinda sucks.

 

dude..

 

realistically Regen performs inline with expectations, and in the right hands can begin to overperform. with solid Resists it is pretty tough sans debuffs piling up to cripple recharge and regen. I won't argue -recharge and/or -regen debuffs are real glaring weaknesses that could be looked at.

 

under performers could be

ranged

pain

poison

traps (even though the -res is pretty epic)

force field (just a bit lost in the current game)

 

melee

kinetic

psionic

 

(note some listed may be due to my not fully understanding a set)

Edited April 6, 2022 by Troo

[TheZag]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

dude..

 

realistically Regen performs inline with expectations, and in the right hands can overperform. Regen with solid Resists is pretty tough sans debuffs piling up to cripple recharge and regen.

 

An excellent point that someones underperformer can be someone elses overperformer.

[Carnifax]

Masterminds for sure. Purple patch just destroys them.

 

Ice Control needs help, both for Controllers and Domis. It's hard to quantify what Arctic Air is doing but Shiver certainly needs changing and Ice Domis need something to make the set work better in Domination.

 

Poison needs a wee tweak, nothing huge (maybe make the cone thingy a bit better, could also give it some -regen).

 

Empathy needs something too. My thought was that the targeted team buffs also have a lesser version of the same effect on the caster. 

 

[Without_Pause]

Outside of the fact there is recent enough threads covering this, in the Defender forum people are ranking power sets and Kin does get place in the A tier and not S. I've ODed on the set. It isn't versatile. It basically does one important thing and does it better than anybody else. I might given more leveling back the idea Time is a tier above. Support sets sans FF are in a good place. I feel like we would be simply cleaning up End/Recharge costs versus bad powers.

 

I have little to add which hasn't been said elsewhere. I will say Wormhole's cast time is "not good" considering Fold Space. Yes, it does more, but it is also Grav's main mez control and part of an ATs primary as where Fold Space anybody can take. Also factor in the rest of similar powers each of the controllers get. Stalagmites is a whole 2 seconds faster. Other sets with slower powers are still markedly faster than Wormhole.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Under performing in my opinion:

1. Mastermind Mercenaries
2. Assault Rifle for all AT's
3. Force Field
4. Sentinels

 

[Crasical]

Buff LRM Missile.

[Uun]

Buff/Debuff: Force Field and Sonic Resonance underperform significantly. Poison performs well vs. ST but underperforms in AoE. Traps needs tweaks to 2 or 3 powers. 

Control: Mind and Ice are the weakest performers as controllers, less so as dominators. 

Blast: Sonic is strong vs. ST but needs a more functional AoE. Archery needs more secondary effects.

[KaizenSoze]

I'll just reference the thread I started in February on the same topic.

Edited April 6, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[arcane]

Definitely Overperform: 

Bio Armor
Energy Melee
Fire Blast
Kinetics

Illusion Control

Plant Control

Radiation Armor

Shield Defense

Time Manipulation

Definitely Underperform:

Force Field

Kinetic Melee

Mercenaries

Shades of grey and caveats elsewhere.

[Apparition]

Overperform:

 

• Tankers
• Defenders
• Cold Domination
• Kinetics
• Time Manipulation (Farsight + Power Boost specifically)
• Fire Blast
• Bio Armor
• Radiation Armor

 

Underperform:

 

• Brutes
• Masterminds
• Peacebringers
• Sentinels
• Empathy
• Force Field
• lol Mercenaries
• Assault Rifle
• Sonic Attack (except on Defenders)
• Battle Axe
• Broadsword
• Fiery Melee
• Kinetic Melee
• Ice Armor (except on Scrappers and Stalkers)
• Regeneration

Edited April 6, 2022 by Apparition

[TheZag]

2 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I'll just reference the thread I started in February on the same topic.

 

This thread will probably end up the same but i was hoping more for what people felt was doing well or poorly and less about what people wanted the devs to look at.  A set can be great or garbage and not need a dev review.

[Without_Pause]

If a set is garbage, then it needs a review. I think there are very few outliners which would need to be looked at in terms of being too good, see Tank +Res proc.

[Gulbasaur]

On 4/6/2022 at 8:03 PM, Uun said:

Control: Mind and Ice are the weakest performers as controllers, less so as dominators. 

I'd argue that the thing that needs fixing about Mind is that Fear effects don't trigger Containment critical hits. Mind is a good blasty set, but the cone Fear doesn't give much benefit so it's sort of skippable. It still soloes very well.

 

I ran a Mind controller on the very early days before the inherent power was added to the game - it was good, but then expectations changed and the meta changed. 

 

Sonic and Force Field are both clearly defined sets with +res/-res and +def/knockback as their gimmicks... only other sets all do it better and part of it was power creep. Force Field was edged out by IOs and the playerbase's obsession with knockback bad while tanking in the middle of a room and not using the environment to gain an advantage [Gulbasaur mutters incoherently for twenty minutes about the declining standards of tanking] and Sonic was largely eclipsed by sets added in City of Villains. Other sets provide resistance buffs with a broader toolkit and other sets provide stronger -res debuffs... with a with a broader toolkit. 

 

Peacebringers really do need a "modernisation" pass. In the time before IOs, mage-tanks were unique. Now blasters can swan in with their bling bling builds with 45% defence and resists. They're solid tanks, but their damage powers are either nukes or very under-tuned. They are great to level and are a Flashbacker's dream because of how well they downscale, but at endgame their niche is suddenly crowded out. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Gulbasaur

[Greycat]

Honestly, I think talking individual powers over ATs / sets is a better spot to start. Since different sets - or different pairings - can give a wildly different experience ("Salmon Melee is horrible with Ice Armor but great with Regen.")

 

For instance, you call a MM underperforming... yet people talk about MMs as, depending on the set (and experience) "Boring" (for instance, me trying to level a bots/ff on live, and nearly getting bored out of the entire AT,) "safest you can play (also bots/ff, often,) or "AV/GM killers." That's a pretty wide range.  About the only general statement you can make is that the MM's attacks are ... eh.

 

Or, you mention tanks as being overpowered with (paraphrasing) "your healer friends get bored." Well, that's less a problem with tanks and more with the fact that "healing" goes from much loved early on to really not needed much late game. (And also "are we talking Empathy or Pain Dom? And are they doing the self-nerfing 'pure healer' thing or actually doing other things too?")

 

And, of course, the last bit - also touching on the OP's tank comment - is are we talking sets/ATs, or *IOs?* Would your tank be jumping in at +4x8 and not taking any damage if they were just on SOs? If not - and I suspect the answer would be "no" there - I don't think the powerset or AT is the issue. The "I can perma/cap/floored recharge" does horrendous things to game balance. (I mention in some of the "what would you change..." threads that pop up occasionally that I'd drop the rule of 5 to a rule of 3, among other things (like folding LOTG into the generic recharge percentage)  - not a popular opinion, but I think the complaint of "this AT/set is overpowered" might get a new look if that happened.)

[ArchmageMC]

MMs need their pet level shifts removed. That would go a long ways to making them good on purple patch as once your on purple patch, even with incarnate shift, thats still a 5 and a 4 on your minions.

For overperformers, there aren't really that come to mind. I'd rather buff others up to the 'overpreformers' than nerf those. After all, nothing is coming close to old TW.

[Zeraphia]

Over-performers

 

1. Radiation Armor
2. Fire Blast (yes technically it gives no secondary effects other than damage, but what it's good at, it is THE BEST at.)
3. Kinetics
4. Cold Domination
5. Energy Melee
6. Titan Weapons (still)
7. Mind Control (but ONLY with Dominators, NOT Controllers)

 

Under-performers

1. Assault Rifle across the board.
2. Both Peacebringers and Warshades.
3. Energy Blast (of all of them, I would say this is easily the worst set in the entire game)
4. Electrical Affinity
5. Kinetic Melee.
6. Psionic Melee.
7. Fire Melee. (this one is especially bad because of the fact that EM and TW are just better, this set genuinely has no reason to be picked other than theme whatsoever.)
8. Staff Fighting.
9. Mind Control on anything but Dominator.
10. Ice Control.
11. Regeneration.
12. Fiery Aura on Scrappers/Stalkers.
13. Seismic Blast.
14. Sonic Manipulation.
15. Sentinels as a whole.
16. Empathy
17. Mercenaries for MM
18. Ninjas for MM
    These next few are powers but aren't necessarily powersets
19. Cryonic Judgement 
20. Nerve Alpha
21. Seers Lore
22. Gravitic Interface
23. Pre-emptive Interface

Edited April 7, 2022 by Zeraphia

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

 

1. Energy Blast (of all of them, I would say this is easily the worst set in the entire game)

It’s light years ahead of the three I listed as definites 🙂 

 

Holy hell, Electrical Affinity???? Someone has never done a truly hard task with vs without one.

 

Seismic Blast and Sonic Manipulation are also high end sets.

 

Nerve Alpha is fine, but Resilient is not 🙂

Edited April 7, 2022 by arcane

[Shred Monkey]

21 hours ago, TheZag said:

a single kinetics user can damage cap a whole team.

 

Obviously this problem can be solved by simply raising the damage cap.  All in favor?

[Without_Pause]

7 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'd argue that the thing that needs fixing about Mind is that Fear effects don't trigger Containment critical hits. Mind is a good blasty set, but the cone Fear doesn't give much benefit so it's sort of skippable. It still soloes very well.

 

I ran a Mind controller on the very early days before the inherent power was added to the game - it was good, but then expectations changed and the meta changed. 

I would also argue TK isn't mind control and should be changed to an AoE Disorient called Mind Wipe to offer a name which would also set up AoE containment.

[Uun]

7 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'd argue that the thing that needs fixing about Mind is that Fear effects don't trigger Containment critical hits. Mind is a good blasty set, but the cone Fear doesn't give much benefit so it's sort of skippable. It still soloes very well.

Most control sets have 2 or 3 AoE controls in addition to the AoE hold and AoE immobilize. Earth is the AoE king, with a stun, knockdown patch, slow and sleep. Mind gets an AoE sleep, fear, confuse and whatever TK is. The sleep takes the place of the immobilize most other sets get (and doesn't have the same recharge) and the confuse takes the place of the pet. That leaves you with Terrify and TK. I happen to like fear as an AoE control, but the Illusion and Dark versions are far superior (I agree that fear should establish containment). TK is just a steaming pile of useless, and a 10-foot radius and 5-target max hardly qualify it as an AoE control. 

[Onlyasandwich]

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Mind Control

Mind Control on Doms is solid, but I have never felt it approaching something like say Plant. What is your perspective on what makes it OP?

[zenijos10]

Underperform:

Mastermind in general, but only against +4 and up enemies.

Mercenaries specifically are laughably bad.  I think this is the worst set in the entire game.  Medic is useless and the others have painfully long recharge on their good attacks.

All the epic, both hero and villain, ATs tend to underperform, not because they inherently suck, but because they are unusually complicated. Compared to other ATs it is extremely easy for players to make a crappy one.

 

OP

eh, I feel that there certainly power sets that are top tier and plainly superior to others like Time, Energy Melee, Radiation Armor, Fire blast and Cold Dom. There will always be a “the best". I would not go so far to say they over perform or are over powered.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by zenijos10

[zenijos10]

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

 

 

Under-performers

1. Assault Rifle across the board.
2. Both Peacebringers and Warshades.
3. Energy Blast (of all of them, I would say this is easily the worst set in the entire game)
4. Electrical Affinity
5. Kinetic Melee.
6. Psionic Melee.
7. Fire Melee. (this one is especially bad because of the fact that EM and TW are just better, this set genuinely has no reason to be picked other than theme whatsoever.)
8. Staff Fighting.
9. Mind Control on anything but Dominator.
10. Ice Control.
11. Regeneration.
12. Fiery Aura on Scrappers/Stalkers.
13. Seismic Blast.
14. Sonic Manipulation.
15. Sentinels as a whole.
16. Empathy
17. Mercenaries for MM
18. Ninjas for MM
    These next few are powers but aren't necessarily powersets
19. Cryonic Judgement 
20. Nerve Alpha
21. Seers Lore
22. Gravitic Interface
23. Pre-emptive Interface

Energy blast I think is a good set.  The problem is that one of its primary assets, crazy knockdown, is reviled by a large number of player.  So If anything got overperforms, but in the wrong direction.

 

I agree on Cryonic Judgement. It is objectively the worst judgement power.

Edited April 7, 2022 by zenijos10