The great Vigilance idea thread!

[Marbing]

Since Vigilance still seems to be a very hot topic on a lot of support AT enthusiasts minds. I have decided to create this thread so we can all brainstorm ideas for how to fix Vigilance (assumin’ it needs a fixin’)! 
 

I don’t want this to turn into a flame thread or a name calling thread. Just share your ideas and we can talk about them. 
 

To start things off let’s look at what Vigilance currently does:

 

Solo: +30% Damage

This scales down to 0% at 3 teammates.

Team: Endurance Redux that scales up as your teams HP gets lower.

 

My two cents to kick the ideas off (the numbers are preliminary):

Solo: +20% Global Recharge, +10% Endurance Reduction

The recharge scales down to 0% at 3 teammates.

Team: The Endurance Reduction remains, +Special that scales up to +20% on a full team. 

 

I know already my idea may not be the best. And again the numbers are preliminary and can be adjusted for balance concerns. But, I just wanted to be the brave soul to kick things off and take the alpha strike of negative feedback. Let’s hear what y’all’s ideas are now! 😃

Bring on those thumbs! (Up or down)

[arcane]

I think we should just nix the whole solo vs team dichotomy. One reason Vigilance sucks is because it doesn’t add something *consistently* valuable.

 

Also endurance problems don’t exist anymore in this game at level 50 so the endurance discount is a bit of a worthless feature. To benefit from it you would have to build your character such that it can’t manage its endurance solo. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane

[Marbing]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I think we should just nix the whole solo vs team dichotomy. One reason Vigilance sucks is because it doesn’t add something *consistently* valuable.

Solid idea! Any proposal? 
 

EDIT: I had the same thought, which is why I left the Endurance Redux consistent between team and solo, I know that’s prob not what you were looking for but I do like the idea of something that remains constant.

And true, endurance issues aren’t of much concern but having it built in I think opens other build options up a little. IMO, but I see your point.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Marbing

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Solid idea! Any proposal? 

Purely spitballing here, not seriously thought out ideas.

 

Just a few examples of ways you could borrow concepts from other inherents (since I haven't had a eureka moment yet on something completely new). Each will have flaws, like many inherents, where certain sets stand to benefit much less.

 

• Defiance-like small boost per attack feature 
  • All defender attacks cast a small defiance-size short duration damage buff on teammates
    • Maybe or maybe not cast on self
    • Wouldn't help kinetics much
    • No effect solo. But who cares. Defenders don't need to be solo gods but will still be able to do +4x8 just fine without the Vigilance buff.
  • All defender support clicks cast a small +special on self
    • Wouldn't help sonic like at all
• Scourge-like counterpart to refine the dichotomy between corruptors and defenders. Same as damage crits but "critical heal/buff/debuff" or whatever.
  • Defender support powers come with some sort of chance to crit feature
  • Crit chance increases if team health bars are dropping
    • Doesn't do anything about the flaw where people don't like that they have to wait until they're "failing at their job" to get a buff.
• Domination/Opportunity/Fury like progress bar mechanism for boosting support functions, whether by +special or by critting
• Some buff akin to Bodyguard (but ofc nothing that extreme in potency) but based on nearby teammates ofc instead of nearby pets.

 

 

Just thoughts. Would prefer something unique but alas my brain doesn't work that good this morning.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane

[Marbing]

28 minutes ago, arcane said:

Purely spitballing here, not seriously thought out ideas.

 

Just a few examples of ways you could borrow concepts from other inherents (since I haven't had a eureka moment yet on something completely new). Each will have flaws, like many inherents, where certain sets stand to benefit much less.

 

• Defiance-like small boost per attack feature 
  • All defender attacks cast a small defiance-size short duration damage buff on teammates
    • Maybe or maybe not cast on self
    • Wouldn't help kinetics much
    • No effect solo. But who cares. Defenders don't need to be solo gods but will still be able to do +4x8 just fine without the Vigilance buff.
  • All defender support clicks cast a small +special on self
    • Wouldn't help sonic like at all
• Scourge-like counterpart to refine the dichotomy between corruptors and defenders. Same as damage crits but "critical heal/buff/debuff" or whatever.
  • Defender support powers come with some sort of chance to crit feature
  • Crit chance increases if team health bars are dropping
    • Doesn't do anything about the flaw where people don't like that they have to wait until they're "failing at their job" to get a buff.
• Domination/Opportunity/Fury like progress bar mechanism for boosting support functions, whether by +special or by critting
• Some buff akin to Bodyguard (but ofc nothing that extreme in potency) but based on nearby teammates ofc instead of nearby pets.

 

 

Just thoughts. Would prefer something unique but alas my brain doesn't work that good this morning.

 

 

Gotta say I like a lot of these ideas. Vigilance should be something that leans into a defender’s strength in some way. IMO

 

A few of these ideas really hit that note.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Gotta say I like a lot of these ideas. Vigilance should be something that leans into a defender’s strength in some way. IMO

 

A few of these ideas really hit that note.

Yours is even an improvement to me. It’s just become obvious to me that the self damage buff needs to go. It’s muddying the waters and getting an awful lot of people confused about the distinctions between Corruptors and Defenders. At a minimum, we need to get to where we agree that Corruptors are clearly better at damage and Defenders are clearly better at support.

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane

[Marbing]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yours is even an improvement to me. It’s just become obvious to me that the self damage buff needs to go. It’s muddying the waters and getting an awful lot of people confused about the distinctions between Corruptors and Defenders. At a minimum, we need to get to where we agree that Corruptors are clearly better at damage and Defenders are clearly better at support.

Thanks! And I agree. There should be less muddiness.
 

I was trying to keep my suggestion as something familiar while also giving it something that’s consistent. Perhaps not the best solution but IMO better than we have now.

 

I am hoping we get more people in here, especially support centric ones that can weigh in.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'd leave the damage bonus alone and just alter the endurance cost reduction to be per teammate, regardless of their HP. That way Defenders who are doing their jobs properly aren't penalized for it.

 

So it'd look like this:

• Solo +30% damage
• 1 TM +20% damage, 10% endurance cost reduction
• 2 TM +10% damage, 20% endurance cost reduction
• 3 TM 30% endurance cost reduction
• 4 TM 40% endurance cost reduction
• 5 TM 50% endurance cost reduction
• 6 TM 60% endurance cost reduction
• 7 TM 70% endurance cost reduction

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'd leave the damage bonus alone and just alter the endurance cost reduction to be per teammate, regardless of their HP. That way Defenders who are doing their jobs properly aren't penalized for it.

 

So it'd look like this:

• Solo +30% damage
• 1 TM +20% damage, 10% endurance cost reduction
• 2 TM +10% damage, 20% endurance cost reduction
• 3 TM 30% endurance cost reduction
• 4 TM 40% endurance cost reduction
• 5 TM 50% endurance cost reduction
• 6 TM 60% endurance cost reduction
• 7 TM 70% endurance cost reduction

Regardless, think you have to at least half the buffs if they’re going from rarely active to permanent. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

Regardless, think you have to at least half the buffs if they’re going from rarely active to permanent. 

I don't think so.

 

First, I dislike the entire endurance system to begin with. My character is a super hero, they don't get winded.

 

Secondly, you want to make sure that Defenders and Corruptors are clearly different and have clearly different foci? Well, this will do it. Corruptors and Defenders will play much differently and have different strengths.

[arcane]

18 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Secondly, you want to make sure that Defenders and Corruptors are clearly different and have clearly different foci? Well, this will do it. Corruptors and Defenders will play much differently and have different strengths.

The most critical thing to achieving this will be removing the self damage buff tho soooo…. Yeah your proposal is obviously not targeting that issue.

 

70% auto perma endurance discount on a full team is *insane*. Would be a ridiculous buff to most of my Defenders, few of whom seem to deserve even a small buff. No can do, brotato.

 

Also every single variant of the argument “My character is SUPER and therefore should not have [apparently any problems ever if you’ve read the forums]” makes me cringe. Any game worth anything has an interplay between risk and reward and this argument basically doesn’t understand what games even are.

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

The most critical thing to achieving this will be removing the self damage buff tho soooo…. Yeah your proposal is obviously not targeting that issue.

You're correct about that. However:

1. I'm not convinced that the solo damage buff is an issue.
2. If you remove the solo damage buff, a LOT of players are going to lose their marbles and light the forums on fire!
3. Also, Luminara will be along shortly to explain to us just how wrong we all are for not recommending that the developers immediately buff Defenders to high heaven in numerous respects.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You're correct about that. However:

1. I'm not convinced that the solo damage buff is an issue.
2. If you remove the solo damage buff, a LOT of players are going to lose their marbles and light the forums on fire!
3. Also, Luminara will be along shortly to explain to us just how wrong we all are for not recommending that the developers immediately buff Defenders to high heaven in numerous respects.

(2) and (3) will happen regardless of the state of reality so why bother.

[Myrmidon]

14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You're correct about that. However:

1. I'm not convinced that the solo damage buff is an issue.
2. If you remove the solo damage buff, a LOT of players are going to lose their marbles and light the forums on fire!
3. Also, Luminara will be along shortly to explain to us just how wrong we all are for not recommending that the developers immediately buff Defenders to high heaven in numerous respects.

@Captain Powerhouse, remove Damage buff, please.

[Marbing]

24 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

If you remove the solo damage buff, a LOT of players are going to lose their marbles and light the forums on fire!

True. I had considered exactly this when I made my proposal. Which replaced the +dmg with a +recharge. The intention was a bit of a compromise since +recharge affects DPS, the idea here though is that +recharge will also affect their primary in a more impactful way than +dmg will. IMO and since we are talking about a primary support toon I thought this made more sense. But, you are right. It may be an effort in futility with some who will still be upset regardless. Such is the internet.

[Luminara]

55 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Also, Luminara will be along shortly to explain to us just how wrong we all are for not recommending that the developers immediately buff Defenders to high heaven in numerous respects.

[MoonSheep]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Also endurance problems don’t exist anymore in this game at level 50 so the endurance discount is a bit of a worthless feature. 

 

> sad poison defender noises

 

[Rudra]

I don't get the hatred of the defender's +30% damage buff while solo. It was the defender's pathetic damage that made me stop playing them on Live. I almost didn't even try corruptors because I was under the impression they were just reversed primaries/secondaries defenders.

 

By all means, fix vigilance. Leave the damage boost when solo alone though. (You may now down vote this opinion. I think solo, they need the buff.)

 

(Edit: And I love how "endurance problems don't exist anymore at level 50". Most of my characters still struggle with endurance as incarnates.)

Edited April 11, 2022 by Rudra

[EmperorSteele]

Perhaps Vigilance should be an adaptive buff to +Special.

 

If teammates are low on HP, heals are more effective. If they're low on endurance, then +End powers are buffed. If the Defender or their teammates are afflicted with debuffs, then any counter-buffs become more potent.

 

If an Enemy has certain buffs active, then the Defender's debuffs become more potent to help overcome higher stats and any resistances.

 

Also, if we want to nix the +Dam, can we at least consider retaining some of it for Empathy/FF Defenders with no debuffs or much ability to buff themselves?

[Marbing]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't get the hatred of the defender's +30% damage buff while solo.

I don’t think it’s hatred, at least not from me. It’s just an opinion that A) it isn’t necessary and B) it encroaches on another AT designed specifically around doing more damage at the cost of its ability to support. 
 

I think a better approach to vigilance should be to further that emphasis that Defenders are the best support AT. Do you have any ideas as to what you think Vigilance should look like?

 

 

[Marbing]

17 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

Perhaps Vigilance should be an adaptive buff to +Special.

 

If teammates are low on HP, heals are more effective. If they're low on endurance, then +End powers are buffed.

I like where your head is, thinking outside the box. Not sure this works entirely as is, though. But not saying it definitely doesn’t. Need to think on this one more.

[Vanden]

I say we leave Vigilance exactly the same. I hope to see this idea implemented by the end of the week. 

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I think a better approach to vigilance should be to further that emphasis that Defenders are the best support AT. Do you have any ideas as to what you think Vigilance should look like?

Keep the damage buff when solo. Modify the END buff to a flat -5% or 10% END cost for teammates within a set radius of the defender regardless of number of teammates, as long as the defender is on a team. Apply a flat +10% to buff effects and heals on party members including when applied to the defender him/herself while on a team. This keeps the defender from being the garbage I remember back on live and bolsters the defender's ability to assist the team. Focusing on a flat bonus to buffs and heals will not help defender power sets that focus on debuffs as much, but all defender primaries have at least 1 power this would affect. Or conversely, just make it a flat +10% specials buff instead of the buffs and heals boost.

 

(And yes, while I understand others enjoyed playing defenders, I absolutely hated playing them and I was always solo. So they were garbage to me, so I was still disinclined to return to them even with the damage boost. The damage boost at least made me consider giving them another try though. No offense to those who actually enjoyed them.)

Edited April 11, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for clarity.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: And I love how "endurance problems don't exist anymore at level 50". Most of my characters still struggle with endurance as incarnates.)

It's essentially completely impossible to have endurance problems with both Cardiac/Vigor and Ageless Core. And for most builds, it's completely impossible to have endurance problems with just Ageless Core. 

 

IOW: if you have endurance problems, it's because you didn't build to not have endurance problems. There is no combo in the entire game for which the endurance problem is insurmountable no matter what crazy pools you pick.

 

You could say "but every character of mine needs Musculature and Barrier/Clarion/Rebirth" which can be paraphrased "I want to have some endurance problems tho" at which point no one can help you anyway.

 

I have 6 Poisons. None have endurance problems. Some don't have Ageless either. Each is intentionally built to not have endurance problems because that's a thing I do on every character because why would you want to run out of endurance?

 

As for when you don't have Incarnates, well, if you didn't have Vigilance there, you'd be in... the same boat as every other AT that somehow manages. If Poison corruptors even exist why would that be an argument to feel bad for Poison defenders.

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

It cannot be essentially completely impossible when even using Cardiac I have END problems on several characters. I don't use Ageless, but then again I prefer the heal of Rebirth and the resistance of Barrier since I hit those as my panic buttons.