Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Hey someone isn't completely ignorant and complacent when it comes to game design! THANK YOU! the downvoters should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Cmon guys this isn't difficult to understand. nothing even remotely contraversial is being asked for here. it would be objectively an improvement to the game so why are people so against it? "COH is objectively perfect and holds up to modern standards perfectly and any change for the better would ruin it even if it is possible" am I right? yes.

 

Grond save us all.

Combat Teleport in the teleport pool has a .67 s cast time as opposed to 1.67 s for either Confront or AS, is available at level 4 as opposed to level 12 for Confront or level 6 for AS, requires no previous power picks from the pool to get, and is available to everyone in the game. What the author is asking for already exists. Further, the author has already admitted his reason for this thread is so he can keep his preferred 4 power pools and still have this power. So yes, actually, this is rather controversial as he is asking for the ability to do everything he wants without any cost to him and would force other players to have to change the way they play so he can be accommodated.

[ZeeHero]

Yeah but that's besides the point. Explain how a change like the OP suggests would hurt the game?

[Rudra]

So... OP asks for something that already exists in the game and you want me to explain why something that already exists in the game would hurt the game? Because since it already exists in the game, it obviously won't hurt it. It just has to be used by the author.

 

The fact he does not want to do so is not justification for a change. I don't understand your question or rationale. Because the author does not want to use the resources already available to him because he finds it inconvenient justifies forcing a change on others, requiring them to change the way they play so he can do what he wants, and thereby inconveniencing the other players so he need not be inconvenienced into taking a power that already exists and does exactly what he wants? How does that make any sense?

 

I don't know what else can be said. This has already been said repeatedly. What the author wants is already available. Combat Teleport is already there. For his requested purpose. He just needs to use it. What is your point?

[PeregrineFalcon]

33 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Yeah but that's besides the point. Explain how a change like the OP suggests would hurt the game?

Opportunity cost.

 

While the developers spend time changing all of the Confront powers to a Combat Teleport - which already exists in the game, and the OP can pick it, and therefore is complete waste of time to add it into the game AGAIN - that's time that they cannot spend doing other things.

 

How could it possibly make sense for the developers to spend time adding something to the game, that already exists in game, instead of adding in something new to the game?

Edited May 11, 2022 by PeregrineFalcon
Spelling hard.

[arcane]

31 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Yeah but that's besides the point. Explain how a change like the OP suggests would hurt the game?

Asking for workarounds to the 4 power pool limit is just asking to have to make fewer hard choices that mitigate the total potential power of a character. A comparable proposal would be asking Hasten to be made an inherent power. Which I believe has been proposed before and rejected. 

[ZeeHero]

Explain how having a gap closer for melee- something expected from any melee- is a "Workaround" to some limitation that serves any purpose?

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Explain how having a gap closer for melee- something expected from any melee- is a "Workaround" to some limitation that serves any purpose?

The OP explicitly asked for a workaround to the 4 pool limit. They literally acknowledged every melee player already has access to a gap closer. But they also acknowledged that they personally typically can’t play this game without Speed, Leaping, Fighting, and Leadership. And the latter acknowledgement is the only reason they aren’t already able to enjoy the existing gap closer of their choice. Of course Speed and Leaping are gap closers themselves, but they seem to want the Combat Teleport brand without sacrificing anything. THAT’s what people are saying no to. Not to every melee getting gap closers, no one objects to that because of course that already exists.

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Explain how having a gap closer for melee- something expected from any melee- is a "Workaround" to some limitation that serves any purpose?

 

 

Answer #1:

On 4/28/2022 at 2:29 PM, Solvernia said:

Giving melee ATs the ability to close the distance does not fundamentally change the game. They can already do this albeit at the cost of having to waste a power pool selection to do so (Experimentation, which is a set that is 80% useless, or Teleport, which is 60% useless.) If you pick Speed of Sound, you can't pick any other origin-based pool sets.

 

Taking a gap closer as a melee AT requires you to sacrifice other pool power selections to do so, which is not fun. Making it a core feature of the AT by replacing the useless taunt/confront would give them better options for pool power picks, which means more fun.

 

 

Answer #2:

On 4/28/2022 at 2:36 PM, Solvernia said:

The addition of Combat Teleport and Speed of Sound was fantastic and alleviated a lot of the problems I had with combat mobility, but it's not enough. They still require you to waste one of your four pool picks on a single power.

 

 

Bold added to highlight the argument you say the author is not making but has already made.

 

Edit: Also, please note that the author also admits that the means to do what he wants already exists in the first highlight..

Edited May 11, 2022 by Rudra

[arcane]

It’s too bad he has to call those pools mostly useless though. Both have very appealing options for investing three power picks:

 

Experimentation:

Speed of Sound / Jaunt

Adrenal Booster

on your way to unlocking Adrenal Booster, pick Experimental Injection to save a slot elsewhere by muling Preventive Medicine

 

Teleportation:

Combat Teleport

Fold Space

on your way to unlocking Fold Space, either 2nd power can mule either Blessing of the Zephyr to potentially save a slot elsewhere, or Winter’s Gift to shore up certain debuff resistances.

Anyway, there are no limits to arguments that would follow using the OP’s logic (literally that “sacrificing a power pool pick = not fun”). If that’s sound logic, why stop at gap closers? We all need access to every power pool functionality that exists outside of the OP’s aforementioned favorite 4. (Hint: no we don’t)

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

It’s too bad he has to call those pools mostly useless though. Both have very appealing options for investing three power picks

I could be wrong, but I think part of it is having to "waste" a pool selection by picking one of the suggested powers.  Personally, I think having to weigh such a decision is an important component of creating a character...

[Rudra]

Right. The teleport pool has 2 means of closing the gap. Combat Teleport that takes you to a target enemy and Fold Space that brings every enemy within 100 feet to your character. So there are two options in the pool to do what the author wants. Then add in Teleport Other to grab single enemies instead or bring friends to you or Teleport which is annoying to use but is definitely a viable travel power, and the teleport pool is brimming with options. I would not call that pool useless to any degree. Thanks for bringing that up, @arcane.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

I could be wrong, but I think part of it is having to "waste" a pool selection by picking one of the suggested powers.  Personally, I think having to weigh such a decision is an important component of creating a character...

Yep, real games have real decisions 🙂

[ZeeHero]

Allow me to easily explain why every melee powerset should have a baked in gap closer regardless of workarounds.

 

They are melee sets and need one. Just becuase it's easy to take a pool power like combat teleport does not mean every hero can teleport at will, for one example. melee sets have no excuse NOT to have gap closers built in. 

 

Really not hard to understand and hurts nothing to fix it.

[ZeeHero]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yep, real games have real decisions 🙂

Becuase it's a "Real decision" whether or not to have something that is essential to a playstyle. Oh please.

 

Sure is sad how incredibly stubborn people are at defending NOT objectively improving the game in a way that hurts nothing and only helps people.

Edited May 11, 2022 by ZeeHero

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

They are melee sets and need one.

I have a bunch of melee characters. None of them have Combat Teleport or any other 'Gap Closer.' Well ok, my Broadsword Shield Scrapper has Shield Charge.

 

Point is that if you feel that your melee character, or any other character for that matter needs a Gap Closer you can pick one up. Some people do not feel the need for them so they don't bother. But there's no objective need for a Gap Closer.

 

 

7 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Really not hard to understand and hurts nothing to fix it.

Actually I've already explained this. While the developers are spending time working on changing all of the Confront powers to Gap Closers, that's time they cannot spend doing other things.

 

Now, if this were an ordinary game company that wouldn't matter. But this isn't. Homecoming has around Thirteen people, working part time, for free, and not all of them are developers. So literally anything they do it taking time away from them doing anything else.

 

And you can already pick a Gap Closer. It's already in the game.

[biostem]

21 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Becuase it's a "Real decision" whether or not to have something that is essential to a playstyle. Oh please.

But it isn't "essential".

 

21 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Sure is sad how incredibly stubborn people are at defending NOT objectively improving the game in a way that hurts nothing and only helps people.

It isn't "objective", either.

 

Please stop confusing your OPINION with FACT.

[Rudra]

57 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Allow me to easily explain why every melee powerset should have a baked in gap closer regardless of workarounds.

 

They are melee sets and need one. Just becuase it's easy to take a pool power like combat teleport does not mean every hero can teleport at will, for one example. melee sets have no excuse NOT to have gap closers built in. 

 

Really not hard to understand and hurts nothing to fix it.

So your explanation for why this should be done is because since not every melee character can or should teleport, every melee AT should teleport? Let me try this a different way and see if it makes more sense to me.... Not every melee character will use teleport. Check. Makes sense. So they should all have teleport automatically baked into their power set. What? That is like saying not everyone will use a car so they should be able to use a car instead.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Becuase it's a "Real decision" whether or not to have something that is essential to a playstyle. Oh please.

 

Sure is sad how incredibly stubborn people are at defending NOT objectively improving the game in a way that hurts nothing and only helps people.

It does not help people who use Confront for its created purpose. While players like @Greycat and I may be minority players that actually use confront, changing it to a teleport to target would actually hurt us because we could no longer use it to draw targets out of a crowded area or force gates to send their spawns to the group or draw mobs off friends before the friends are defeated.

 

And decisions about character powers is integral to all characters. That is why we have ATs. That is why those ATs have different power sets within them. That is why there are power pools, ancillary power pools, and patron power pools. And yet we only have 24 power slots for our characters split between all that. With caps on how many different pools we can take. So we as players have to choose what powers and how they are slotted based on what we think is either more appropriate for the character or more effective.

 

This thread is based on getting around that limitation.

 

Edit: What it basically boils down to is you and the author want the utility of a power pool without having to give up your min/max power pool selections. Since you can't fit 5 power pools into a character, not counting ancillary power pools and patron power pools which are treated differently, you want the utility of teleport baked into the preferred ATs for it so you can keep the same 4 power pools with the same pool power choices. And like with the request for Hasten to be made into an inherent power like the Fitness pool before it, the answer is "No".

Edited May 11, 2022 by Rudra

[arcane]

30 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Becuase it's a "Real decision" whether or not to have something that is essential to a playstyle.

Not sure you know what this word means.

[Greycat]

57 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Allow me to easily explain why every melee powerset should have a baked in gap closer regardless of workarounds.

 

They are melee sets and need one.

 

That is an opinion. Not a fact. Given we've been playing these sets since the early 2000s successfully without one, barring... what, two sets that mostly have them for flavor (Shield and Electric Melee,) I'd say it's fair to say your opinion is not, in fact, backed up by... well, fact.

 

This is not a "they need." This is a "You want."  And there are options for 'you want.' Taking the leaping pool? One more pick gets you spring attack. Combat teleport's available.  Boom, done, and not affecting the play of anyone who does *not* want one and hasn't needed one since - as mentioned - the early 2000s.

 

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

Really not hard to understand and hurts nothing to fix it.

 

Examples of what this would hurt were given earlier. I have zero need for a "gap closer," and losing confront would, in fact, hurt my playstyle. There are times I do not want to teleport into a group, but just get the attention of a specific something. Or other times it is absolutely unneccessary - as I mentioned, mothership raids being a popular one for me (taunting a grate to gather rikti. I don't want to teleport to the grate. If I did, I'd ... take teleport and do it myself.)

 

If you feel it's "essential" to your playstyle, you have options. Do not force your playstyle on everyone else who's been doing just fine without it, thanks.

[TheZag]

The only gap closer i use is between my fist and the enemies face.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

If you feel it's "essential" to your playstyle, you have options. Do not force your playstyle on everyone else who's been doing just fine without it, thanks.

 

If this change went through and you lost your taunt, you would have options. You are rejecting this idea because it runs contrary to what you feel is essential to YOUR playstyle. And you are doing exactly what you are asking them not to do--you are forcing your preferences on other people who would like to have other options. Now if the idea of your scrapper having to take taunt from a pool is horrible and somehow detrimental to your build philosophy--well is it that hard to relate to people who feel saddled with a worthless taunt power that could be something cooler like a gap closer? I definitely have builds that could use that. But it's not worth consideration because someone wants to taunt a grate?

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Allow me to easily explain why every melee powerset should have a baked in gap closer regardless of workarounds.

 

They are melee sets and need one. Just becuase it's easy to take a pool power like combat teleport does not mean every hero can teleport at will, for one example. melee sets have no excuse NOT to have gap closers built in. 

 

With no movement buffs at all and both Sprint and Swift slotted with a single Run Speed enhancement, your character runs at 56.921'/second.  In ~1.05 seconds, your character will move ~60'.  To move the same distance with Shield Charge, you spend 1.716 seconds.  Lightning Rod, 2.772 seconds.  In ~1.23 seconds, you cover the same distance as Savage Leap's range, 70'  Savage Leap's animation time is 1.32s.

 

Before we look at anything else, we've already established that simply holding W for 1.05-1.23 seconds is faster than existing in-set "gap closers".  And you and the OP think that's not good enough, but neither of you wants to admit that the Teleportation pool exists expressly for the purpose of granting players access to even faster methods of covering the equivalent distance, so you're both clamoring for Combat Teleport to be added directly to melee attack sets.

 

Okay, so where does that end?  If the argument, "I shouldn't have to take a pool power to play the way I want" is acceptable for this scenario, is it not also acceptable for all other scenarios?

 

"I shouldn't have to take a pool power to get more global +Recharge, I need 70% global +Recharge for every set."

 

"I shouldn't have to take Aid Self on sets with no heal, I need a heal in every set."

 

"I shouldn't have to take a pool attack for more damage, I need an extra attack in every set."

 

"I shouldn't have to take Combat Jumping or Hover for vertical movement, I need movement powers for every set."

 

"I shouldn't have to take pool powers to cap my Defense/Resistance, I need the ability to hit caps in every set."

 

At what point does the expectation that every set have everything imaginable stop?  How far down that road do we go?  What is the value of playing this game when we no longer have 21 different melee attack sets, rather 21 different variations of a name for a single melee set and 21 different default color schemes for the same homogenized nine powers?  And all of it in the name of "Don't make me take pool powers to play the way I want", when pool powers were added specifically so players could play the way they want?

 

But let's pretend that there really is a snowball's chance in Hell for this inane, selfish, poorly conceived and thinly veiled argument to convince the HC team to implement a Combat Teleport in Confront.  Do you honestly believe it's going to have Combat Teleport's range and animation time?  I guarantee that it would be slower to animate and/or have a shorter range, and in the end, it would be no faster than pressing W for an equivalent period of time, because a teleport which also debuffs enemy Range by 75%, Taunts, and has neither a hit check (in PvE) nor endurance cost would not be given a sub-1s animation time and 100' base range.  Either Combat Teleport would have to have its animation time, endurance cost and/or range drastically altered to make it "less good" than the "baked in" version in every melee attack set, or the melee attack set version would have to be significantly worse at teleporting to compensate for all of the other things it does.  And I can tell you right now, they're not going to nerf Combat Teleport into the ground just to satisfy a couple of players who think they "deserve" instantaneous spawn to spawn movement without pressing W or taking a pool power and try to justify their demand by pointing at other games or bitching about having to take a pool power.

 

Sorry, champ, but that won't fly no matter how many rockets you strap to its ass.

 

Nor are they going to rip Confront out to make room for in-set Combat Teleport, or delete everything that Confront does so it can be "better" at teleporting, because gutting powers like that is only done when absolutely necessary, and this wouldn't qualify.  So your "baked in gap closer" would end up being shit.  I estimate that the range would be reduced to 40', an endurance cost of 7.5, minimum, attached, an animation time no faster than 1.32s, if they change the animation time at all... and it'd have a hit check, leaving you with your dick in your hand when it missed.  Even when it hits, it'll take longer than just pressing W, and in the end, all you will have gained is another few points on your blood pressure.

 

Of course, you're more than welcome to spend the next three days posting "bu y tho" and arguing.  It won't get you anywhere, but it's your time to waste, so please, have at it.  This proposal was a non-starter before, it's still a non-starter.  The HC team doesn't rip powers out and replace them without careful consideration and examination of every other possible solution, and numerous attempts to make any other solution work before they resort to replacement.  They don't change powers on a whim, either, because disruption of a hundred thousand or more existing builds has consequences.  The changes proposed in the original request, the first revision and the second revision, are all unbalanced, poorly thought out and patently obvious attempts at mass homogenization of the game for selfish reasons.  But if that's the bandwagon you want to ride, go for it.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

If this change went through and you lost your taunt, you would have options. You are rejecting this idea because it runs contrary to what you feel is essential to YOUR playstyle. And you are doing exactly what you are asking them not to do--you are forcing your preferences on other people who would like to have other options. Now if the idea of your scrapper having to take taunt from a pool is horrible and somehow detrimental to your build philosophy--well is it that hard to relate to people who feel saddled with a worthless taunt power that could be something cooler like a gap closer? I definitely have builds that could use that. But it's not worth consideration because someone wants to taunt a grate?

Let's see... game is created with options for play set up in configuration A. Players play the game using configuration A. Another player comes along and says he wants it run in configuration B instead which would completely invalidate playing according to configuration A. And the players playing the game in the existing configuration are the ones imposing their play style on the individual that wants to throw that play style out the window?

 

...

 

You have some seriously questionable logic. If something is set up one way and people use it that way, that is not the players imposing their play style on another. That is players playing the game as it works. Now asking for that t be changed because someone does not want to use the already available resources to accomplish his goal? That *is* an imposition of personal play style on others.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

If this change went through and you lost your taunt, you would have options. You are rejecting this idea because it runs contrary to what you feel is essential to YOUR playstyle. And you are doing exactly what you are asking them not to do--you are forcing your preferences on other people who would like to have other options. Now if the idea of your scrapper having to take taunt from a pool is horrible and somehow detrimental to your build philosophy--well is it that hard to relate to people who feel saddled with a worthless taunt power that could be something cooler like a gap closer? I definitely have builds that could use that. But it's not worth consideration because someone wants to taunt a grate?

 

Making people redesign their builds and forcing them to take pool powers to recover a lost ability, so a other people don't "have to" take pool powers, is not the same as leaving the powers in question alone and expecting people who want optional powers like Combat Teleport to take it from the pool.  That's why it's not worth consideration.

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

But it's not worth consideration because someone wants to taunt a grate?

No. It's not worth consideration because the ability to teleport, or leap, to your target is already in the game. If you want a Gap Closer then take the pool power of your choice.

 

Also, there's this thing called "The Cottage Rule." I've been waiting to see if anyone would bring this up, and I'm disappointed that no one has. Particularly because people love to invoke The Cottage Rule when it doesn't actually apply.