Grumpy thread of the day. Tanks/Brutes who don't actually control aggro on kill mosts.

[Cancrusher]

Well, I would say it's more of a PUG vs SG team dynamic.  In a SG, you can discuss what is expected from each member of the team and plan accordingly.   I mean, technically, I guess you can with PUGs too, but that's not actually how it works most of the time.  In a PUG, you get different players of all different experience levels and philosophies of play.  You get what you get and you don't throw a fit, so to speak.

 

Basically, if you want players to play each AT in the way that you think the AT is meant to be played, you need to form a supergroup and structure it that way.  Expecting randos in a PUG to share your point of view (or agree to conform to it) is probably not realistic.  You might also get a player like myself, who is a very poor multi-tasker, and just misses a lot of chat msgs because they're focused in on the fight.

 

If someone refuses to take cues from you when you ask (please do this/don't do this), you still have the option of booting them from the team.  Not helpful once you've started a task force, since you can't replace them, but maybe it's less harmful than letting them stay and ignore your requests?

[zenijos10]

4 minutes ago, Cancrusher said:

Well, I would say it's more of a PUG vs SG team dynamic.  In a SG, you can discuss what is expected from each member of the team and plan accordingly.   I mean, technically, I guess you can with PUGs too, but that's not actually how it works most of the time.  In a PUG, you get different players of all different experience levels and philosophies of play.  You get what you get and you don't throw a fit, so to speak.

 

Basically, if you want players to play each AT in the way that you think the AT is meant to be played, you need to form a supergroup and structure it that way.  Expecting randos in a PUG to share your point of view (or agree to conform to it) is probably not realistic.  You might also get a player like myself, who is a very poor multi-tasker, and just misses a lot of chat msgs because they're focused in on the fight.

 

If someone refuses to take cues from you when you ask (please do this/don't do this), you still have the option of booting them from the team.  Not helpful once you've started a task force, since you can't replace them, but maybe it's less harmful than letting them stay and ignore your requests?

The real protection here, especially for pugs, is to build your characters to be able to survive and thrive regardless of what anyone else does.

 

The only character any of have any real control over is the one we’re playing. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by zenijos10

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, zenijos10 said:

I keep reading that the tanks role is to keep the team safe.  That’s something tanks can certainly do, but a lot of people pick tanks or brutes so they can personally survive.  The role a given player takes on is up to that specific player not the other people playing. There is nothing inherent in a tank that makes them need to protect the team.  If anyone assumes that a tank or brute intends to play with a team first attitude then that anyone will certainly have to swallow a lot of disappointment. 

Yeah!

Makes me mad when people think a person joining a team is going to be part of that team.

Ridiculous!  They act as if this game offers solo play!

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Ghost

[zenijos10]

10 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Makes me mad when people think a person joining a team is going to be part of that team.

Ridiculous!  They act as if this game offers solo play!

 

 

Part of the team is not the same as doing what other people think a tank or brute should be doing. You can be part of the team by surviving and defeating enemies, no crowd control or protecting of the team is necessary to be part of the team.  

 

Why be a tanker or brute if you don’t intend to taunt, protect the team or control the aggro? Because tanks and brutes are the sturdiest archetypes and choosing them makes it way more likely you personally won’t die, particularly if you don’t have a min maxed build.

Edited May 28, 2022 by zenijos10

[Ghost]

10 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Part of the team is not the same as doing what other people think a tank or brute should be doing. You can be part of the team by surviving and defeating enemies, no crowd control or protecting of the team is necessary to be part of the team.  

 

Why be a tanker or brute if you don’t intend to taunt, protect the team or control the aggro? Because tanks and brutes are the sturdiest archetypes and choosing them makes it way more likely you personally won’t die, particularly if you don’t have a min maxed build.

 

I agree - was just making fun of this line.... 

 

 

1 hour ago, zenijos10 said:

If anyone assumes that a tank or brute intends to play with a team first attitude

 

[zenijos10]

30 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

I agree - was just making fun of this line.... 

 

 

 

I see.  I meant vs. having a me first attitude, which is often expected from a lot of other archetypes.

Edited May 28, 2022 by zenijos10

[biostem]

59 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Because tanks and brutes are the sturdiest archetypes and choosing them makes it way more likely you personally won’t die, particularly if you don’t have a min maxed build.

I agree in the case of brutes, but why roll a tanker if you're gonna solo, (or at least play with a solo mindset)?  I'm asking rhetorically, as I think you should be able to play however you want, (outside of harassing or griefing, etc) - I'm just trying to get in the headspace of "I want to do my own thing, but I'm going to play this AT that has all this stuff geared towards team play"...

Edited May 28, 2022 by biostem

[zenijos10]

42 minutes ago, biostem said:

I agree in the case of brutes, but why roll a tanker if you're gonna solo, (or at least play with a solo mindset)?  I'm asking rhetorically, as I think you should be able to play however you want, (outside of harassing or griefing, etc) - I'm just trying to get in the headspace of "I want to do my own thing, but I'm going to play this AT that has all this stuff geared towards team play"...

Tanks are hard to kill, best survivability in the game.   Even without min max build and even without IOs at all tanks survive extremely well.

They also hit the most targets with AoEs.  So maxing damage per attack means having full groups to hit.  Many people play tanks like scrappers that are harder to kill but also can do nearly comparable  damage as long as there are lots of enemies.

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Tanks are hard to kill, best survivability in the game.   Even without min max build and even without IOs at all tanks survive extremely well.

They also hit the most targets with AoEs.  So maxing damage per attack means having full groups to hit.  Many people play tanks like scrappers that are harder to kill but also can do nearly comparable  damage as long as there are lots of enemies.

I suppose it's a matter of taste, then - do you want larger AoEs that hit for less, or smaller AoEs that hit for more.  Nice to have options, then...

[Snarky]

Tanks do comparable damage to Scrappers???

 

Wait.  What?   I was pretty sure Tanks do less damage than Brutes and I know Brutes do a smidge less than Scrappers at FULL Fury because I was there when they nerfed it.   
 

Anyone got a spreadsheet?

[subbacultchas]

I have absolutely been that person yelling in my head at the tanker who is three spawns away while two of us squishies are handling two Freak Tanks who rezzed. And then realized we were the ones who decided to stay back and fight them in the first damned place. It happens with a little chagrin, and you learn and move along.

Sometimes it's better to lay out expectations for teams beforehand, but this is not usually the PUG way. You got to learn to just embrace the chaos.

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, biostem said:

do you want larger AoEs that hit for less, or smaller AoEs that hit for more.

 

I want Shield Charge at level 26.

 

[Ghost]

30 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Tanks do comparable damage to Scrappers???

 

Wait.  What?   I was pretty sure Tanks do less damage than Brutes and I know Brutes do a smidge less than Scrappers at FULL Fury because I was there when they nerfed it.   
 

Anyone got a spreadsheet?

No spreadsheet needed.

My understanding is it goes like this….

 

Tanks do the most damage.  
Unless you’re on a Brute, then they do the most.

Of course a Scrapper also does the most, but sometimes not.

Blaster do more than everyone, unless you don’t like Blasters, then they are the worst.

 

 

[Black Zot]

Kinda pointless to barrel ahead while stragglers are still up in the first mission of a Yin TF in any case, as most of those packs have to be fully cleared to open the next part of the mission.

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/27/2022 at 3:51 PM, KaizenSoze said:

 

 

They are pretty much ignoring the group and soloing the TF. If they would group up the mobs nicely, things would go faster, because AOE would be more effective.

 

It's very selfish play and makes thing slower for the whole team.

 

I think the level of impatience comes with the incarnate uberness.  There's not alot of patience for waiting for the mobs to 'clamp on' the tank before attacking.  I remember on live people having more patience with this and even demonstrating tank techniques and 'leading' the group on attack strategy.  Corner pulling etc.

 

Now you get 'that' which you outline with tanks, you get Controllers who play 'City of Lamposts' before the tank secures aggro which means the mob are semi-scattered, not bunched up so take longer to kill etc.  It can seem a bit 'every man for himself.'  

 

Or headless chickens battle strategy.  And to think someone still question if tanks have relevance.

 

I just pull mobs to the corner, round that pillar, bunch them up and give them the gift.  Playing solo, I get to practice this alot without interruption.  You can still tell when a good tank is on a team.  They make a significant difference.

 

Azrael.

[ForeverLaxx]

I used to get annoyed at players who would insist that being on a team was still secretly a solo mission with 7 other players who are only there to witness their brand of perfection. When it became clear, long ago, that these players will never take what the rest of the team says into account, I just stopped getting annoyed and started watching them without helping much, if at all. If they're going to solo the mission anyway, I can multitask and do other things while my character is along for the ride.

 

I'm mostly there for the merits and badge anyway. If they feel like they have something to prove to a bunch of faceless people on the internet, more power to them.

[Golden Azrael]

I think the 'Tank Patch Update' really added to the 'Tankiness' of the Tank.  The 'radiating' nature of the powers has seen me roll ten tanks since that patch.

 

The Dark/Dark tank was a revelation.

 

Azrael.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can multitask and do other things while my character is along for the ride.

Honestly, unless it's something that I made a commitment to see through to the end, like a TF, I'll politely excuse myself after that particular mission is complete, and find a team that gels better...

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Honestly, unless it's something that I made a commitment to see through to the end, like a TF, I'll politely excuse myself after that particular mission is complete, and find a team that gels better...

That's great. I already waited 30-45 minutes for that team because I'm not interested in leading one myself and would rather not let those merits and badge be left unclaimed if the Tank/Brute wants to be so generous as to solo the TF for their team.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

That's great. I already waited 30-45 minutes for that team because I'm not interested in leading one myself and would rather not let those merits and badge be left unclaimed if the Tank/Brute wants to be so generous as to solo the TF for their team.

We all have different priorities and different levels of what we'll tolerate, which is also (generally) a good thing!

[DrunkFlux]

In regards to being told how to play all the time:  This can apply to any archtype, in fact I was recently told my night widow was gimp purely for not being a corruptor/defender when it came to support.  Granted the same tools acted like everyone wasn't taking them for granted(as if they needed to be worshipped constantly just for playing support archtypes), as if the mastermind wasn't around and I didn't exist, but being told I didn't matter was kinda insulting(didn't help I mistook one of them as the kin when it was the mastermind, it was still rude they acted like everyone else didn't exist).

 

I only find tankers/brutes annoying when they are gathering more than the target cap, and i think it's because many of them fire farm most of the time, and never actually come to the realization that there is a cap of 16.  It mostly effects people who are leveling more than people who are already at max level with alpha slot though, and lower level teams.  I admit I feel fire farms are the "Big game hunters(A money map in starcraft)" of city of heroes; they teach bad habits in players.  Big game hunters in starcraft generally taught players to only mass one unit armies without scouting, upgrading, or doing any fundamental and also not expand.  Fire farms teach players to ignore the agro cap and often disregard the entire team, rely on incarnate powers in builds ect.

Edited May 28, 2022 by DrunkFlux

[biostem]

1 minute ago, DrunkFlux said:

In regards to being told how to play all the time:  This can apply to any archtype, in fact I was recently told my night widow was gimp purely for not being a corruptor/defender when it came to support.

I often find that such people are only familiar with a handful of powersets or ATs, and instead of trying to learn what other ATs/sets can provide, they fall back on what they know, with it never occurring to them that there is more to gameplay than that...

[Doomguide2005]

Psst:  minor details, the aggro cap is 17.  Most AoEs outside of Incarnate nukes cap at 16 (on a favorable AT).  And I'm pretty sure the game tracks your aggro (aka threat) for well over 17 it just doesn't have the foe AI react until one of the 17 most annoyed are defeated first, making the former 18 (etc.) become the 17th on your list.  This also assumes a teammate doesn't have a higher aggro value on your 18 than you do ... or the game goes to check Mr. 19 on your threat list, etc., etc..

[zenijos10]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Tanks do comparable damage to Scrappers???

 

Wait.  What?   I was pretty sure Tanks do less damage than Brutes and I know Brutes do a smidge less than Scrappers at FULL Fury because I was there when they nerfed it.   
 

Anyone got a spreadsheet?

* nearly * comparable when there is a big group, but not overall

Edited May 28, 2022 by zenijos10

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

After the rework it's more complicated than that. A Tanker with a solid AOE chain with a strong herding game can keep pace with a Brute, because of Gauntlet and just hitting more mobs per hit. 

I get that.  I would still love a spreadsheet, but this makes sense.  And it is a "edge" case.  You need an attack set that is AoE heavy and an armor set with a damage aura and another AoE if possible (I am guessing Rad or Fire?)   With Fire you are not the hardiest of armor sets, so giving up a little.  I have never played Rad, so I cannot speak to it.  Been stuck on Dark concepts....for a while.  

 

This also postulates a target rich environment of trash mobs.  You may be doing a battle of a thousand cuts to 17 EBs and Bosses but I think I would prefer a Dark/Invul Brute there.  Just take the things down and use AoE as it recharges.