Grumpy thread of the day. Tanks/Brutes who don't actually control aggro on kill mosts.

[Greldek]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:01 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

This is pretty much the reason I (almost) never play a tank in team play.  It's a total drag to be asked/told to play a certain way because someone else on my team has a bee in their bonnet about how I'm engaging in a recreational activity wrong.  So I don't play a tank unless I'm in a particularly good mood, I'm willing to be ordered around by random strangers, and I happen to be in the mood to "actively tank".

 

Of course, what I really find fun is stepping up with a corruptor or stalker and taking on "active tank" duties. 

I had someone whine at me that I attacked the wrong tentacle on lusca, when i was brute leading the charge. Apparently they have super special tentacle order. Some people need to get a life.

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I would still love a spreadsheet

 

Kinky.  Wear a chainmail condom so you don't get paper cuts on your willie.

[Saikochoro]

I personally get annoyed with tanks who are timid and slow. I would much rather the tank aggro a mob, hold enough of the aggro to tank the alpha while the squishies kill most of the mob with their nukes and aoes then move on. Stalkers and scrappers and the like can easily mop up any stragglers quickly. 
 

I think a team should be able to handle some aggro overflow. Waiting until every last enemy is dead before moving on to the next is a recipe for a slow slog and is boring. 
 

The only real duty should be to describe how you expect the run to go if you see the organizer or to comply with the organizers request. If going ahead to keep the pace going was against the organizers flow, then yes, that was wrong. However, keeping a decent pace and holding just enough of the aggro to tank the alphas is not in and of itself an incorrect way to play the tank. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Akisan]

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Some players these days just join teams to solo.

They aren't there to team. They are just there to show off how powerful they are.

 

Case in point, thank you.  Great example of what I meant by "very selfish behavior".  As several others have mentioned though, as long as they don't endanger the rest of the team, they can have at.  I also won't be going out of my way to help them if they get in over their head, since that's 100% on them.

 

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

You NEVER have to have a tank on the team.

 

Also 100% true.  You never *need* any specific AT, and a fair number of teams don't even need any aggro management to do well - they just keep everything debuffed, locked down, or simply roll on through with raw DPS.  If your tank (or whoever else has point) is herding though, (great alt-tactic on that, btw) they're absolutely setting the pace of the mission by doing so.

[Erratic1]

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

I keep reading that the tanks role is to keep the team safe.  That’s something tanks can certainly do, but a lot of people pick tanks or brutes so they can personally survive.  The role a given player takes on is up to that specific player not the other people playing. There is nothing inherent in a tank that makes them need to protect the team.  If anyone assumes that a tank or brute intends to play with a team first attitude then that anyone will certainly have to swallow a lot of disappointment. 

 

Most squishy with skill use the Tanker (or really any willing individual) to take the alpha and then go about their business. It is what allows some of my still unfinished melees the confidence of leaping into a crowd they would not otherwise survive--that shortly everything will be controlled or killed, I just have to survive that long.

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, Krimson said:

After the rework it's more complicated than that. A Tanker with a solid AOE chain with a strong herding game can keep pace with a Brute, because of Gauntlet and just hitting more mobs per hit. 

 

*Considers asking, "If Tankers can keep pace with Brutes for damage but Brutes cannot keep pace with Tankers for survivability, what good are Brutes?", but then remembers the last flare up of the Brute/Tanker wars and decides against*

Edited May 29, 2022 by Erratic1

[Erratic1]

34 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I'd rather be on a team with a Tanker, a Brute, and two Scrappers than four Tankers, four Brutes, or four Scrappers. 

 

Probably should skip Tanker Tuesday when its a team with 8 Tankers.

 

I have a lot of fun with them though.

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

*Considers asking, "If Tankers can keep pace with Brutes for damage but Brutes cannot keep pace with Tankers for survivability, what good are Brutes?", but then remembers the last flare up of the Brute/Tanker wars and decides against*

I agreed upthread that in edge cases Tanks do (possibly) slightly more damage than Brutes.  The edge cases being certain powersets versus  tons of trash mobs.  Tanks do not equal brutes in ST attack chains.   You would need to post proof of this overarching claim.  Stating something does not make it so

[Erratic1]

25 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I agreed upthread that in edge cases Tanks do (possibly) slightly more damage than Brutes.  The edge cases being certain powersets versus  tons of trash mobs.  Tanks do not equal brutes in ST attack chains.   You would need to post proof of this overarching claim.  Stating something does not make it so

 

 I am not the one making the claim. The '?' at the end of the italicized portion indicates a question, specifically a question based on a claim put forth,

[InvaderStych]

51 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I agreed upthread that in edge cases Tanks do (possibly) slightly more damage than Brutes.  The edge cases being certain powersets versus  tons of trash mobs.  Tanks do not equal brutes in ST attack chains.   You would need to post proof of this overarching claim.  Stating something does not make it so

 

I'd suggest reviewing the Trapdoor Results thread down in ScrapperTown.  There are a lot more Tanks posting times in the 4:xx minute range than can be justifiably called "edge" cases.  Not really sure +4 Arachnos count as "Trash," but maybe I am just terribad at the game. 😄

 

Part of the issue is that the Gauntlet buffs resulted in AoEs that fire procs more often than they should because PPM is still calculated on the base AoE size, not the buffed AoE size.  Add in the increased target cap size and voila.  We've got an AT that requires the least "investment" in durability with a broken mechanic that can be exploited for more damage than the AT should be putting out.

 

Single Target is where the "Edge Case" argument can be made, although there are some pretty impressive times posted by Tanks in that respect as well.

 

Also recall that both Brutes and Tanks have an inherent that buffs Attacks found in armor sets.  Scrapper crits do not affect these powers, which doesn't really help level out the trade off of less durability for more damage.  This was always the case with Brute's Fury, but after the Gauntlet AoE buffs we can add Tanks to that list.

 

In terms of damage output writ large, probably not a huge difference numerically - but it is the durability differential that makes it an issue for me personally.  Tanks, after the buff to base damage and Gauntlet, are far too close to Scrappers in effective damage output in a target saturated environment (which is how "everyone" plays, basically) considering how much less durable Scrappers are in that same scenario.

[zenijos10]

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Most squishy with skill use the Tanker (or really any willing individual) to take the alpha and then go about their business. It is what allows some of my still unfinished melees the confidence of leaping into a crowd they would not otherwise survive--that shortly everything will be controlled or killed, I just have to survive that long.

A lot of people who first play squishies and then build a tank play the tank with a similar mindset, except, instead of being concerned about the team, for them the most fun is living through what would have killed their other characters: Take alphas, smack around a few minions, then as the survival required decreases (as does Tanker AOE effectiveness) leave the rest of the mob for the squishies.  Then, take the next alpha and start over.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, zenijos10 said:

A lot of people who first play squishies and then build a tank play the tank with a similar mindset, except, instead of being concerned about the team, for them the most fun is living through what would have killed their other characters: Take alphas, smack around a few minions, then as the survival required decreases (as does Tanker AOE effectiveness) leave the rest of the mob for the squishies.  Then, take the next alpha and start over.

 

I cannot speak to most but my first characters to max were my initial character, a Defender, and a follow up Scrapper. It was not until near the end of Live that I first gave Tankers a go. I mostly soloed, and was careful when teaming to point out I was new to Tanking, to set expectations. But my goal as a Tanker was to tank.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:17 PM, Akisan said:

If your tank (or whoever else has point) is herding though, (great alt-tactic on that, btw) they're absolutely setting the pace of the mission by doing so.

 

I agree with if a tanks herding.

I also agree "whoever else has point" aka "non-tank AT" is herding.

 

I also think it tends to be whoever is able to take the alpha and, hopefully, contain the agro.

 

But more likely, it is whoever it is that is able continually set-up combat situations so that the team isn't falling in combat.

I mean, if the same character is falling in combat all the time, then probably it's their fault. And if someone isn't falling in combat when other are falling in combat, maybe see what they are doing and see how to help them with the tactic that they are using instead of the same thing that has been making you face plant on the floor over-and-over again.

 

I do see a difference of someone forming a team and wanting to set the pace of the team -versus- someone joining a team and deciding that they are the one to set the pace of the team.

 

On 5/28/2022 at 9:17 PM, Akisan said:

As several others have mentioned though, as long as they don't endanger the rest of the team, they can have at.

 

And they can have those views.

I can quit a team if I see that kind of stuff going on if I want to.

I can also let teammates know that I'm running a team as the team leader, and If they don't want to team up they are free to leave the team. If they don't take that as a hint, I can always kick them.

 

As a team leader, I can set the conditions to play the way that I like and not have other players ruin the my game experience.

 

I find the few players that are like that are no loss being removed from a team and the team seems to run more smoothly once they are gone.

 

 

[Infinitum]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:22 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

What is it called when a tanker gets scrapper-lock?

 

Its like drag racing with a bulldozer.

 

You may not be the quickest but everyone will know where you have been.

[Myrmidon]

That’s likely because most “Tanking” players don’t understand how aggro works. It’s actually possible to pull group after group into a defeat zone, however, this requires an understanding of how all of the ATs work and how the team operates. In Pick Up Groups (PUGs, which I play with a lot), a Tanking AT player should be able to work out the team capabilities within the first couple of mob groups. Any Tanking AT player that cannot do that is welcome to message me for advice.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Myrmidon

[Myrmidon]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:22 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

What is it called when a tanker gets scrapper-lock?

A player that should reroll as a Scrapper.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Its like drag racing with a bulldozer.

 

You may not be the quickest but everyone will know where you have been.

 

Yep, pretty much like that.

The Bulldozer just pushes most of the stuff to the sides as it plows through and ignores what it leave behind because it is going to quickly to do the job properly.

 

Yep, because of the path of enemies that were left behind for the rest of the team.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Yep, pretty much like that.

The Bulldozer just pushes most of the stuff to the sides as it plows through and ignores what it leave behind because it is going to quickly to do the job properly.

 

Yep, because of the path of enemies that were left behind for the rest of the team.

 

Yeah that's not what i meant.  Try not to project what some do on all of us.

 

Also try to remember that if a team is playing that way - it isn't right or wrong but their choice - just as you have a choice to leave that team if it bugs you that badly.

 

It is only up to you to define what is proper if you are leading the team - which you are also free to do.

 

It is completely a "you" thing this game - you can make it work however you like at the end of the day.  😉

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah that's not what i meant.  Try not to project what some do on all of us.

 

This is related to ::

 

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

On 5/28/2022 at 8:22 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

What is it called when a tanker gets scrapper-lock?

 

Its like drag racing with a bulldozer.

 

You may not be the quickest but everyone will know where you have been.

 

So yeah, I do think that is the result of tanker getting scrapper-lock.

In no way, does that project that view on "all of us".

 

I know that I do not behave that way when I tank.

 

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Also try to remember that if a team is playing that way - it isn't right or wrong but their choice - just as you have a choice to leave that team if it bugs you that badly.

 

You are correct, the team leader can kick a tank behaving in that manner and/or it can quit the team if they don't like it. I do a good bit of team leading.

-or- 

as I experienced last night, if the tank is going to rush ahead and can't even handle it, I'm going to protect the rest of the team to the best of my ability and they are on their own. And watched them face plant repeatedly for no good reason.

 

And you should try to remember, that one player playing a tank and getting scrapper-lock is one player playing that way and not the "team" playing that way.

 

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It is only up to you to define what is proper if you are leading the team - which you are also free to do.

 

No. I can bring up my issues with behavior with the rest of the team. The rest of the team can comment on behavior. 

The Team leader can make decisions based on that communication.

 

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It is completely a "you" thing this game - you can make it work however you like at the end of the day.

 

Unless you are a team and want to team with others, and then it is about the group of players and not about me or any individual member of the team.

 

What is good for the whole of the team makes the team better for everyone.

 

This is what makes a team become so much more powerful when they learn to gel with each other.

Lead, follow, or learn how to do what is best of for the team because something is missing if you don't supply it. Otherwise, you aren't acting as part of the team, you are a lone wolf or a berserker - in most cases, the team ends up to have to chase this maniac and treat them as the leader if they remain in the team ... or they an simply ignore them and let them run off on their own because the refuse to behave as part of the team.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

So yeah, I do think that is the result of tanker getting scrapper-lock.

In no way, does that project that view on "all of us".

 

I know that I do not behave that way when I tank.

 

But you did attribute something my post was not intending to it - because i do not play that way.

6 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

And you should try to remember, that one player playing a tank and getting scrapper-lock is one player playing that way and not the "team" playing that way.

 

But... If the team allows it and facilitates this behavior - it is the teams ultimate responsibility to dictate how they want the missions to run.

8 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

No. I can bring up my issues with behavior with the rest of the team. The rest of the team can comment on behavior. 

The Team leader can make decisions based on that communication.

 

You as leader still define how you want your missions to run.  If you don't that is on you.

9 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Unless you are a team and want to team with others, and then it is about the group of players and not about me or any individual member of the team.

 

But you are still the driver of the YOUTruck you can choose where you stay, how long you stay, or if its time to pick another team.

 

If you stay in a situation you are not happy with - there are plenty of other opportunities to pick up another team - if you stuck around that is also on you and not completely fair to complain - because 1. The team sanctions the play style - and 2. by staying you do also by default.

12 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

This is what makes a team become so much more powerful when they learn to gel with each other.

Lead, follow, or learn how to do what is best of for the team because something is missing if you don't supply it. Otherwise, you aren't acting as part of the team, you are a lone wolf or a berserker - in most cases, the team ends up to have to chase this maniac and treat them as the leader if they remain in the team ... or they an simply ignore them and let them run off on their own because the refuse to behave as part of the team.

 

Then the team needs to first issue a warning, perhaps even advice - if it isn't heeded - kick.

 

The tools are there to alleviate your issue - if you do not use them - it is still a you thing.

[Erratic1]

32 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

What is good for the whole of the team makes the team better for everyone.

 

Such a shame that 99 times out of 100 that seems to mean some silliness regarding what some non-Tank playing individual wants the Tanker to do while ignoring all the things the team is doing that annoys the Tanker to no end.

[UltraAlt]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But you did attribute something my post was not intending to it - because i do not play that way.

 

Please quote your post that I misrepresented.

 

19 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But... If the team allows it and facilitates this behavior - it is the teams ultimate responsibility to dictate how they want the missions to run.

 

Yes.

As stated,

1) Other players on the team can state that they have issues or their observations about someone else's behavior on the team

2) Players can leave the team if they don't like it.

3) The team leader can kick the offending player if they are becoming and issue to the team.

 

And that goes for any kind of behavior and not just "hulk smash!" tankers.

 

22 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If you stay in a situation you are not happy with - there are plenty of other opportunities to pick up another team - if you stuck around that is also on you and not completely fair to complain - because 1. The team sanctions the play style - and 2. by staying you do also by default.

 

No. 

Every player has their right to say something about that is going on if they are on a team.

It may be unwanted or it could be other people on the team are thinking the same thing and simply haven't said anything.

 

If there is something going on that is an issue, it is helpful to the team is someone(s) step-up to say something and, hopefully, more teamwork will develop.

 

24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

The tools are there to alleviate your issue - if you do not use them - it is still a you thing.

 

Unless it is a team thing, and then it is a group decision ... which is kind my whole point.

 

As they say, there is no "I" in "team".

[UltraAlt]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Such a shame that 99 times out of 100 that seems to mean some silliness regarding what some non-Tank playing individual wants the Tanker to do while ignoring all the things the team is doing that annoys the Tanker to no end.

 

Pretty much seems to be coming from a tanker that is annoy about what other players are doing rather than finding their niche on the team and insisting that there is only one way to play when there is a tanker on the team.
If it is a full team, you are only 1 out of 8 players on that team.

 

And as other people have said, if you don't like the behavior of the other players aka that they annoy you, then you should feel free to leave the team.

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Yep, pretty much like that.

The Bulldozer just pushes most of the stuff to the sides as it plows through and ignores what it leave behind because it is going to quickly to do the job properly.

 

Yep, because of the path of enemies that were left behind for the rest of the team.

You said that in response and reference to what i said - that was not my meaning in my post.  May not have been your intent but it looks like you attributed the playstyle of leaving stuff behind to my post.  

 

16 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Unless it is a team thing, and then it is a group decision ... which is kind my whole point.

 

As they say, there is no "I" in "team".

 

But - at the end of the day... This is a... Game.

 

I am not going to hang around and let something in a game stress me out - to the point of complaining about it on forums... For the game. (Not anymore anyway 😁 i growed up)

 

There are plenty of options to remove the stress from the game - life is stressful enough - i will not let one of my favorite recreational activities decay into something that stresses me out - team or no team.

 

Again that is a personal choice and based on personal responsibility to guide ones on actions.

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Pretty much seems to be coming from a tanker that is annoy about what other players are doing rather than finding their niche on the team and insisting that there is only one way to play when there is a tanker on the team.

 

Since you don't know me, have not played with me, and I have detailed no specific situation by which you could draw the conclusion you assert, I think everyone can see the value of your reply here.

 

But feel free to craft a better one and I am sure most people will ignore the one you offered.