Regeneration vs. Willpower

[Redletter]

Without looking into it too deeply, this seems like a question that's got to be as old as time. Having never made a Ren OR WP toon, and Im looking to make a 'Ghoul' character for Goldside flair. Im having difficulty deciding which to use, since both seem pretty nestled in the 'health regen' field of dealing with damage, with Ren focusing more on healing, and WP focusing more on damage mitigation.

 

I, personally, have zero idea which of these two does the job of "regeneration" better. You would think it's Regeneration, but, if you can't even survive long enough for your Regen to help you, what's the point?

 

Also! What's the deal with Regen being unavaiable for Tankers? Like, Energy Aura I can get (I dont AGREE with it, but I get it) but no Regen? They get WP, but no Regen? What's the deal, what's this discrimation against HEALING huh? You got something AGAINST the color GREEN, huh? GREEEEEEN number going up? Shaking my smh my shaking shh duuuude, in 2022 no less!

[Hyperstrike]

Willpower's a better, more effortless Regen than Regen.

WP gives less TOTAL Regen, but tosses decent Resist and Defense in.

So there's less "I'm a GOD!  I'm a GOD!  I'm a *ROAD PIZZA!*"

The reason why Regen is unavailable for Tanks is because Tank HP numbers are so through the roof that even a baseline Regen Tank would START at the immortality line.

A middling Brute can pull down 61.59 HP/Sec out of IH or MOG.  Note: Including all +HP Accolades, with Common IOs used in everything but IH.
IH alone is 172.99%
With a bit of tweaking, you can push to about 182 without searching for +Regen/+HP set bonuses.
And you can tweak to get it up to 130s Recharge.
Now imagine that with 20% more HP.
Then toss in "Chance for +Absorb"
Plus Numina and Regen Tissue uniques.

Utterly redonkulous.
So, you simply cut back Regen levels IN REGEN?  And leave Tanks with an "inferior" setup?
Or do you diversify, making up that lost Regen with things like +Resist, +Def or +Absorb?

And what do you wind up with?

...Willpower.

[kelika2]

willpower but color everything greenish

[Redletter]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Willpower's a better, more effortless Regen than Regen.

WP gives less TOTAL Regen, but tosses decent Resist and Defense in.

So there's less "I'm a GOD!  I'm a GOD!  I'm a *ROAD PIZZA!*"

The reason why Regen is unavailable for Tanks is because Tank HP numbers are so through the roof that even a baseline Regen Tank would START at the immortality line.

A middling Brute can pull down 61.59 HP/Sec out of IH or MOG.  Note: Including all +HP Accolades, with Common IOs used in everything but IH.
IH alone is 172.99%
With a bit of tweaking, you can push to about 182 without searching for +Regen/+HP set bonuses.
And you can tweak to get it up to 130s Recharge.
Now imagine that with 20% more HP.
Then toss in "Chance for +Absorb"
Plus Numina and Regen Tissue uniques.

Utterly redonkulous.
So, you simply cut back Regen levels IN REGEN?  And leave Tanks with an "inferior" setup?
Or do you diversify, making up that lost Regen with things like +Resist, +Def or +Absorb?

And what do you wind up with?

...Willpower.

 

I see the "probelm" but then, like... Tankers get SR just fine...

 

Oh well. Willpower it is. Thank you! Ill maybe try regen elsetimes.

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Redletter said:

 

I see the "probelm" but then, like... Tankers get SR just fine...

 

Oh well. Willpower it is. Thank you! Ill maybe try regen elsetimes.

The basic point is, in CoH, there are certain angles where it IS possible to have "too much of a Good Thing".
With Regen, a Brute is already sitting at that point.  And the "solution" to that is to be able to choke up enough burst damage that they essentially DIE before getting the regen together to heal any damage.
SR has a similar problem with anything that can reliably crack Insane-O defense numbers.  But updates have happened since the inception of SR that give it other survivability tools.

[Without_Pause]

I just want to point out there's no valid reason for Tanks to not have EA.

[Yomo Kimyata]

They are two extremely different sets that both focus on regaining health.

 

Willpower does it passively and has a lot of other mitigation (defense, resistance) built into the set.

 

Regeneration does it mostly actively, and is much more of a one trick pony.

 

They play very differently in my opinion.  In a really simple explanation, Regeneration is far more user-intensive in terms of actively and pre-emptively trying to survive.  As a result, many people find it a far more difficult power set to play than Willpower, which is the poster child for "set it and forget it."

 

 

 

[Hjarki]

On a Brute, Regeneration (alone - without any pool/primary powers slotted) will give about 2700 HP and 600% Regeneration outside Instant Healing. With Instant Healing, add another 1000% Regen. Realistically, Instant Healing is only available 50% of the time.

 

Willpower will give about 2250 HP and 600% Regeneration with a single target, 1050% Regeneration with 10 targets.

 

Bio Armor will give about 2050 HP and 600% Regeneration (in Efficient). If you have 10 targets, you'll get to around 2100% Regeneration with both DNA Siphon and Parasitic Aura (Parasitic Aura has a slightly better uptime than Instant Healing but not by much).

 

Regeneration gives no meaningful debuff protection beyond a bit of -regen protection. Willpower protects against blinds, regen and defense debuffing. Bio protects against end drain and slow movement. Willpower is one of the few sets that gives status protection against everything (most sets don't cover effects like Fear and Confuse).

 

However, you might also consider that Pain and Empathy Defenders can both give +1000% Regeneratiion to a single target and Cold Domination Defenders can give +1000 health to a single target.

 

You also have to recognize that regeneration is an additive damage reduction while resists/defense are multiplicative ones. If you've got 90% resists, you're only taking 10% of the incoming damage regardless of how much there is. With regeneration, there's a level of incoming damage below which you're unkillable but once you pass that level, the value of regeneration rapidly diminishes. As a result, Regeneration tends to be one of the worst sets for how most people play the game. It provides essentially no offensive bonuses while providing mitigation that's useless beyond a relatively low level.

[Hyperstrike]

8 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I just want to point out there's no valid reason for Tanks to not have EA.

Sure there is.

It's called "Invulnerability.  It isn't QUITE Stone, but it has NONE of Stone's crippling drawbacks.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 hours ago, Redletter said:

 

I see the "probelm" but then, like... Tankers get SR just fine...

 

Oh well. Willpower it is. Thank you! Ill maybe try regen elsetimes.

 

Proliferate Regen as is to tanks. Just do it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Sure there is.

It's called "Invulnerability.  It isn't QUITE Stone, but it has NONE of Stone's crippling drawbacks.

 

I love Invul. I don't see why that's not a reason for tanks to get NrgAura.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I love Invul. I don't see why that's not a reason for tanks to get NrgAura.

I'm being facetious.
Take what you want to take.
Play  what you think is "fun".
If someone has a problem with it?
#BooFreakinHoo

[Without_Pause]

18 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Sure there is.

It's called "Invulnerability.  It isn't QUITE Stone, but it has NONE of Stone's crippling drawbacks.

Not even fully T4ed or have likely a maxed out build as I was involved in making it, but my /stone Brute isn't saddled with any of these crippling drawbacks you speak of. On a tank? (snickers)

[Hyperstrike]

22 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Not even fully T4ed or have likely a maxed out build as I was involved in making it, but my /stone Brute isn't saddled with any of these crippling drawbacks you speak of. On a tank? (snickers)

Damage penalty?
Recharge penalty?
Movement penalty?

We thinking the same Stone Armor?

[Zepp]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:47 AM, Hjarki said:

On a Brute, Regeneration (alone - without any pool/primary powers slotted) will give about 2700 HP and 600% Regeneration outside Instant Healing. With Instant Healing, add another 1000% Regen. Realistically, Instant Healing is only available 50% of the time.

 

Willpower will give about 2250 HP and 600% Regeneration with a single target, 1050% Regeneration with 10 targets.

 

Bio Armor will give about 2050 HP and 600% Regeneration (in Efficient). If you have 10 targets, you'll get to around 2100% Regeneration with both DNA Siphon and Parasitic Aura (Parasitic Aura has a slightly better uptime than Instant Healing but not by much).

 

Regeneration gives no meaningful debuff protection beyond a bit of -regen protection. Willpower protects against blinds, regen and defense debuffing. Bio protects against end drain and slow movement. Willpower is one of the few sets that gives status protection against everything (most sets don't cover effects like Fear and Confuse).

 

However, you might also consider that Pain and Empathy Defenders can both give +1000% Regeneratiion to a single target and Cold Domination Defenders can give +1000 health to a single target.

 

You also have to recognize that regeneration is an additive damage reduction while resists/defense are multiplicative ones. If you've got 90% resists, you're only taking 10% of the incoming damage regardless of how much there is. With regeneration, there's a level of incoming damage below which you're unkillable but once you pass that level, the value of regeneration rapidly diminishes. As a result, Regeneration tends to be one of the worst sets for how most people play the game. It provides essentially no offensive bonuses while providing mitigation that's useless beyond a relatively low level.

Hmmm... Rise to the Challenge is a toggle, DNA Siphon is easy to perma... it seems like Instant Healing needs a reduction to recharge to be on par with the other two, regeneration-wise... Especially since both WP and BA have layering...

[Kismet Cowboy]

Not a number cruncher, but from my understanding, and from what others have pointed out: Willpower is a strictly superior set at keeping you alive, and will do so without the hassle of clicks.

 

That said, from my own purely anecdotal experience, I've run a Stone/Regen Brute through Goldside just fine, and had a lot of fun doing so. Regen clearly isn't perfect - there's a thousand and one screaming threads to attest to that fact - but at the end of the day City of Heroes isn't an especially difficult game and Regen is perfectly servicabe, imo.

 

If you want the character to be optimised, and to not have to worry about extra buttons to press, go Willpower. If you're happy with a little extra challenge and don't mind a more active playstyle, Regeneration should do you fine. Personally, I think Regen suits the fantasy of a Ghoul character more, but either can be made to fit the fluff pretty easily.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Kismet Cowboy

[Without_Pause]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:06 PM, Hyperstrike said:

Damage penalty?
Recharge penalty?
Movement penalty?

We thinking the same Stone Armor?

I've done +4/x8 without Granite Armor. So like I said.

[Hyperstrike]

Or rooted?

[Hjarki]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Or rooted?

The revision to Stone Armor removed the penalties from all powers except Granite Armor.

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/31/2022 at 5:13 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

They are two extremely different sets that both focus on regaining health.

 

Willpower does it passively and has a lot of other mitigation (defense, resistance) built into the set.

 

Regeneration does it mostly actively, and is much more of a one trick pony.

 

They play very differently in my opinion.  In a really simple explanation, Regeneration is far more user-intensive in terms of actively and pre-emptively trying to survive.  As a result, many people find it a far more difficult power set to play than Willpower, which is the poster child for "set it and forget it."

 

 

 

 

Excellent points.

 

One is active.  One is passive.

 

On my Claws scrapper, I like engaging the peak performance (from Regen' ) at a time of my choosing. eg. Alpha strike of a mob.  It's got some great attributes.  Several 'tricks' such as Instant Healing, Moment of Glory, a 2nd end bar in Quick Recovery, a brilliant power in Integration, a Tough power in there for some resistance.  I like it alot.  

 

WP.  I don't know what it is.  It's....very passive.  Boring?  (I had it on live on a scrapper, I think...)  But so is Reflexes.  So is Invulnerability.  I built out a WP that can take an almighty beating.  I can see why it's popular.  I think I stripped down my WP/Stone Tank for parts.  The only Tank out of my 11+ tanks I chose to do that with.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

Regen Tanks.  🙂

 

Energy Tanks.  *(Had an energy brute on live...with Dark melee...eye of the storm....barely got hit.  Recent Energy Armour on my Sent'.  Love the unstoppable on it.  3 minutes of ye-ha!  I just filled the build with procs.)

 

Hmmm.  Mmm.  The very idea.  *Salivates.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/31/2022 at 3:59 AM, Redletter said:

Without looking into it too deeply, this seems like a question that's got to be as old as time. Having never made a Ren OR WP toon, and Im looking to make a 'Ghoul' character for Goldside flair. Im having difficulty deciding which to use, since both seem pretty nestled in the 'health regen' field of dealing with damage, with Ren focusing more on healing, and WP focusing more on damage mitigation.

 

I, personally, have zero idea which of these two does the job of "regeneration" better. You would think it's Regeneration, but, if you can't even survive long enough for your Regen to help you, what's the point?

 

Also! What's the deal with Regen being unavaiable for Tankers? Like, Energy Aura I can get (I dont AGREE with it, but I get it) but no Regen? They get WP, but no Regen? What's the deal, what's this discrimation against HEALING huh? You got something AGAINST the color GREEN, huh? GREEEEEEN number going up? Shaking my smh my shaking shh duuuude, in 2022 no less!

 

There's plenty of 'Regen' tanks.  They just do it slightly to 'Regen' on a Scrapper.

 

Is there a petition for Regen on Tanks?  Where is it?  And why haven't I signed.  Why wasn't I consulted?

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

WP.  I don't know what it is.  It's....very passive.  Boring?  (I had it on live on a scrapper, I think...)  But so is Reflexes.  So is Invulnerability.  I built out a WP that can take an almighty beating.  I can see why it's popular.  I think I stripped down my WP/Stone Tank for parts.  The only Tank out of my 11+ tanks I chose to do that with.

 

Here is your summary for Regen, Willpower, and Bio:

 

[Golden Azrael]

That's a terrific picture, Erratic1.

 

Probably about right in terms of capability.  In terms of 'fun' or button pressing engagement?  Oooooh.  It's close between the classic Regen and the progressive Bio which is a terrific armour set.

 

I used to own Bionic Man ('Guh-g-g-g-g...' and 'D-d-d-d-du-dur....'  You know those sound fx, right?) rolling up the elastic on his right arm.  And looking through his telescopic eye.

 

And that's...Masketron?  I used to own him as well with all the detachable masks and computery circuit bits.

 

Masketron looks like he's giving Steve a real hard time there.  😮

 

C'mon, Steve, put your back into it, son!

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  Bionic Women and Steve.  Didn't they ever 'get it on?'  😕

Edited June 10, 2022 by Golden Azrael