issue 27 Focused Feedback: Repeatable Cimerora Incarnate Missions

[The Curator]

Repeatable Cimerora Incarnate Missions

Alexandra Sideris

• Located behind Sister Valeria on Phoebas Point.
  •  /thumbtack 927.3 203.1 5136.9  will place a map waypoint on her while in Cimerora.
• Unlocked by completing the first mission in Sister Valeria's story arc.
• Offers infinitely repeatable missions featuring the Incarnate Cimeroran Traitor enemies.
• This is Incarnate content and players will have access to all their Incarnate Shifts while on these missions.

[arthurh35353]

Hmm. I thought they put a rule in for no double Immunes Surgeon?

 

And they seem really fast to cast fortitude (?) on everyone in their spawn?

 

I was doing +1/x1 as pretty normal for my Sent.

Edited July 20, 2022 by arthurh35353

[InvaderStych]

Events in Sis' arc and the repeatable missions occur after the events of the ITF.  IE: Traitors getting spanked by super-powered beings.  Make sense they would update their tactics in response.

 

Updated Surgeons are an excellent addition.

[goldenstriker]

Repeatables had only one text error as far as I saw - the bosses in the "Defeat X and its coterie" mission I believe had a syntax error in their lines, and instead of saying a lot of chats, they would say two big chats, as shown in attached photo. This happened all three times I ran it.

 

All missions applied incarnate shifts correctly except for the "Destroy the Shadow Crystals" where both times that I ran the mission enemies appeared two threat levels higher than the other missions.

 

Edit: Oh, and I had shared this on the feedback for the Sister Valeria thread, but it would be nice if the "call" contact button for Sideris could say something else, since 'calling' would anachronistic.

Edited July 14, 2022 by goldenstriker

[PorkTips]

I think this looks cool, but it seems like all the incarnate missions and repeatables are magic in origin.

 

Hopefully one day I'll get to fight incarnate Freakshow (my fave group).

[The Caretaker]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:38 PM, PorkTips said:

I think this looks cool, but it seems like all the incarnate missions and repeatables are magic in origin.

 

Hopefully one day I'll get to fight incarnate Freakshow (my fave group).

 

Don't you worry, one step at a time :D

[Marshal_General]

Isn't about time Freakshow got those Skyraider wing upgrades?

[Troo]

Reward tables associated with this content?

[ShardWarrior]

I ran Sister Valeria at +1 x 1 on my main.  I did not encounter any bugs that I could find.  Just wanted to say BEAUTIFUL work on the cave environments!  Top notch work there.  Story was good and easy to follow.  I did not feel the length was too long or too short.  Felt just right in terms of length.

 

Personal subjective feedback - 

• I second what @arthurh35353 mentioned above about the doubling up of Surgeons in every mob.  They are very quick with the fortitude buff recharge.  The teleporting is annoying too.
• The amount of EBs and Bosses in the second and third missions especially made this a bit of chore if the goal is to clear every map.
• The 2 AVs and First Cyst in the final mission are a real chore.  None were challenging at +1 x 1, just tedious.

I will try to do another run as time permits.  Overall nice job!  😁

[Generator]

The Surgeons felt like they were way overboard with the teleporting.  Any chance that could tone down some?

 

EDIT TO ADD: I've run a few more missions there, and the whole faction feels like a combo platter of stuff to annoy the players.  Immune to CC?  Check.  Smoke Grenades?  Check.  Caltrops? Check!  Make the mob that you MUST defeat to not have the fight be an interminable slog teleport around the map every few seconds?  Double check!

Edited July 22, 2022 by Generator

[The Caretaker]

Some slight changes are coming to the repeatable Incarnate Missions in the next patch, including Ravenna Conclave repeatable missions added to Sideris that unlock AFTER you complete Valeria's arc. All maps have been upgraded to the larger size versions as well for all missions.

[The Caretaker]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:38 AM, Generator said:

The Surgeons felt like they were way overboard with the teleporting.  Any chance that could tone down some?

 

EDIT TO ADD: I've run a few more missions there, and the whole faction feels like a combo platter of stuff to annoy the players.  Immune to CC?  Check.  Smoke Grenades?  Check.  Caltrops? Check!  Make the mob that you MUST defeat to not have the fight be an interminable slog teleport around the map every few seconds?  Double check!

 

Definitely don't want to be misinterpreted here, so know I mean this with a smile - this group is hard to solo and that's OK - its another step towards preparing players for target prioritization, situational awareness, and team composition. As for their CC, one of the goals with Hard Mode ITF was that Cimerorans were nigh-impervious to control and making control archetypes have a purpose was very high on the list. This change to Cimerorans trickled back to regular enemies as well, if I'm not mistaken, to make control useful even in the regular ITF. Try bringing a controller or dominator along and see if there's an appreciable difference.

[KaizenSoze]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:38 AM, Generator said:

The Surgeons felt like they were way overboard with the teleporting.  Any chance that could tone down some?

 

EDIT TO ADD: I've run a few more missions there, and the whole faction feels like a combo platter of stuff to annoy the players.  Immune to CC?  Check.  Smoke Grenades?  Check.  Caltrops? Check!  Make the mob that you MUST defeat to not have the fight be an interminable slog teleport around the map every few seconds?  Double check!

I love them. They are a challenge to fight.

 

No snark intended, sometimes you have to turn the difficultly down. See 4x8 Carnies for most of my characters.

[Generator]

1 hour ago, The Caretaker said:

Definitely don't want to be misinterpreted here, so know I mean this with a smile - this group is hard to solo and that's OK - its another step towards preparing players for target prioritization, situational awareness, and team composition. As for their CC, one of the goals with Hard Mode ITF was that Cimerorans were nigh-impervious to control and making control archetypes have a purpose was very high on the list. This change to Cimerorans trickled back to regular enemies as well, if I'm not mistaken, to make control useful even in the regular ITF. Try bringing a controller or dominator along and see if there's an appreciable difference.

 

Well by the same token, I hope neither you nor @KaizenSoze misinterpret this, but they weren't "hard" just "aggravating."

 

As for CC, at the time, my character (Inv/SS Tanker) was testing out a fully-slotted Hand Clap that did squadooch.  I could've Clapped out the chorus to the Cars' "Let's Go" and the mobs were neither stunned nor knocked back an inch.  What difference should I have seen in that context?

[KaizenSoze]

3 minutes ago, Generator said:

 

Well by the same token, I hope neither you nor @KaizenSoze misinterpret this, but they weren't "hard" just "aggravating."

 

As for CC, at the time, my character (Inv/SS Tanker) was testing out a fully-slotted Hand Clap that did squadooch.  I could've Clapped out the chorus to the Cars' "Let's Go" and the mobs were neither stunned nor knocked back an inch.  What difference should I have seen in that context?

I might be mis-understanding. Cimerora mobs are notorious CC resistant, even before the changes.

 

The surgeons are a pain for melee characters.

[Generator]

30 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I might be mis-understanding. Cimerora mobs are notorious CC resistant, even before the changes.

 

The surgeons are a pain for melee characters.

Maybe I misinterpreted what Caretaker was saying, but at first read he seemed to be saying that CC should in some manner be usable against Cimerorans.  But what I was seeing on Brainstorm with my Tanker was still a whole lot of nothing.  No KD, no Stun, not a thing.  If there's some specific thing I should be trying to do to test this, hey I'm all ears.

[KaizenSoze]

3 minutes ago, Generator said:

Maybe I misinterpreted what Caretaker was saying, but at first read he seemed to be saying that CC should in some manner be usable against Cimerorans.  But what I was seeing on Brainstorm with my Tanker was still a whole lot of nothing.  No KD, no Stun, not a thing.  If there's some specific thing I should be trying to do to test this, hey I'm all ears.

Interesting. I was just testing with my controller and I definitely could CC things.

 

I don't have a super strength toon to test with alas.

Edited August 2, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[Generator]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Interesting. I was just testing with my controller and I definitely could CC things.

 

I don't have a super strength toon to test with alas.

Well now I'm wondering if the famous Generator scatterbrain is in effect.  Time and opportunity permitting, I'll log in and try again.  I'm quite sure I'm not misremembering the Hand Clap, though; I dropped it from my build precisely because I wasn't seeing it do anything here, figured another attack would be a better use of the slots.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Generator

[The Caretaker]

The changes to Cims regarding CC were for controllers and dominators to have a greater role. The utility in a tankers toolkit, solo, may not see as much. However there was a definite mentality of "control need not bother" in the ITF and we sought to address that.

 

One of the big offenders was the Shout, which IIRC was changed in effectiveness by rank.

 

@Cobalt Arachne may need a summoning for more deets.

[Cobalt Arachne]

31 minutes ago, The Caretaker said:

The changes to Cims regarding CC were for controllers and dominators to have a greater role. The utility in a tankers toolkit, solo, may not see as much. However there was a definite mentality of "control need not bother" in the ITF and we sought to address that.

 

One of the big offenders was the Shout, which IIRC was changed in effectiveness by rank.

 

@Cobalt Arachne may need a summoning for more deets.

Incarnate/Advanced Difficulty Cimeroran Traitor lieutenants had their Shout of Command (Ally +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Terrorize, Confusion), +Perception) replaced with Rallying Cry (Ally +DMG, +To-Hit, +Crit).

The reason for this was to make the enemy group more controllable, as LTs won't be prone to free all their comrades when they hit 50% health.

Cimeroran Traitor bosses still have Shout of Command like before, which they drop at 50% health, but are less likely to hit that very fast and interrupt controls being used to manage the mob pack's alpha.

[Cinnder]

On 8/2/2022 at 12:49 PM, The Caretaker said:

 

Definitely don't want to be misinterpreted here, so know I mean this with a smile - this group is hard to solo and that's OK - its another step towards preparing players for target prioritization, situational awareness, and team composition. 

 

I'm struggling with this statement a bit and not sure how much the smile is meant to mitigate it.  Is this content meant to be group content (i.e. TF-like) or solo Incarnate content like the DA arcs?  I fully agree that TFs should be hard to solo, but I'd argue that anything designed as solo content should not be extremely hard on standard difficulty or else it pretty much defies the definition.  Seems to me that content marked as soloable should be playable by single characters that are not outfitted with all purple sets, and if it's Incarnate content then no more than an unlocked Alpha should be required or expected on standard difficulty.  Otherwise it should be categorised as group content rather than solo and clearly indicated as such.

[The Caretaker]

3 hours ago, Cinnder said:

 

I'm struggling with this statement a bit and not sure how much the smile is meant to mitigate it.  Is this content meant to be group content (i.e. TF-like) or solo Incarnate content like the DA arcs?  I fully agree that TFs should be hard to solo, but I'd argue that anything designed as solo content should not be extremely hard on standard difficulty or else it pretty much defies the definition.  Seems to me that content marked as soloable should be playable by single characters that are not outfitted with all purple sets, and if it's Incarnate content then no more than an unlocked Alpha should be required or expected on standard difficulty.  Otherwise it should be categorised as group content rather than solo and clearly indicated as such.

 

I see what you're saying. The encounters are tuned just fine at +0/x1-8 which are acceptable soloing standards as far as I'm concerned for an Incarnate.

 

The soloing argument is really an impossible thing to accommodate because a Mind/Emp soloing this (or any) content shouldn't and can't have the same capacity as a claws/fire scrapper.

 

All content in this game is team content as far as I'm concerned. If that Mind/Emp wants to run a task and it's too hard, that's not really the content's fault, OR the player's fault, or the archetype's fault. Some tasks challenge convention. The content is designed with the idea that there's a pool of free agents (hopefully!) that can be recruited to assist. Difficulties can be adjusted. To the person pointing out that their tank was having little success with crowd control in Hand Clap - that approach works well on other groups - it just so happens that this group has been given more utility to challenge you.

 

I think the Incarnate Cimerorans are in a fine place for +0, and with level shifts factored in, get a tad easier over time. You can certainly solo it, but knowing that the wide diversity of character options leads some to be team-support specialists, trying to accommodate it becomes a real universe-brain endeavor. Tankers can put out an impressive amount of damage, but in my eyes, they are specifically designed to help ensure the survival of their teammates as a primary function.

 

The thing I'll have to look into later, is the question I can't answer at this second. Are DA repeatable missions explicitly defined as "solo incarnate" or is that a socially accepted use for them?

 

[Bionic_Flea]

9 minutes ago, The Caretaker said:

The thing I'll have to look into later, is the question I can't answer at this second. Are DA repeatable missions explicitly defined as "solo incarnate" or is that a socially accepted use for them?

I specifically remember Forum debates about the lack of incarnate progression for solo players and then the old team added the DA arcs to address that.  They granted incarnate XP and salvage.  And while incarnate critters have always been a little tougher, most if not all level 50s should be able to complete them at +0/1, and many can complete them at +4/x8, especially once they get their incarnate powers and level shifts.

 

I also think it is convention that anything that requires a team . . . required a team.  HC has loosened this for TFs, but I think everyone knows that TFs and Trials are supposed to be team content that certain ATs and players might be able to complete.  Story arcs are generally understood to be content that can be teamed or solo.  There are a few story arc missions that tell you that you might need to bring friends, but those are few and far between.  And even those can be completed by most solo ATs, perhaps leaning on some temporary powers.  The DA arcs also had the added personal story and intro that HAD to be run solo.

[Cinnder]

3 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

The soloing argument is really an impossible thing to accommodate because a Mind/Emp soloing this (or any) content shouldn't and can't have the same capacity as a claws/fire scrapper.

 

That's definitely a fair point.  What sort of character build (or range of builds) do the devs use to test new content?  I'd say the sweet spot for new solo content should be somewhere in the middle between those two.

 

3 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

All content in this game is team content as far as I'm concerned. If that Mind/Emp wants to run a task and it's too hard, that's not really the content's fault, OR the player's fault, or the archetype's fault. Some tasks challenge convention. The content is designed with the idea that there's a pool of free agents (hopefully!) that can be recruited to assist. Difficulties can be adjusted.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this entirely.  I think Bionic_Flea addressed this point well above.  Also, while it's true that difficulties can be adjusted, there are far more options for making content more difficult than there are for making it less so -- which is why I maintain the baseline for soloable content should be only somewhat challenging for the most part (with the occasional EB thrown in for drama of course!).  

 

3 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

The thing I'll have to look into later, is the question I can't answer at this second. Are DA repeatable missions explicitly defined as "solo incarnate" or is that a socially accepted use for them?

 

Good question! I think Bionic_Flea has the answer to that:

 

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I specifically remember Forum debates about the lack of incarnate progression for solo players and then the old team added the DA arcs to address that.  They granted incarnate XP and salvage. 

 

I understand there's a wide range of playstyles active in HC, and even if I'm not interested in it I'm glad some über-difficult content is being developed for those who enjoy that sort of thing.  But as I've stated elsewhere, I'm concerned that all the new content coming out seems to concentrate too much on being especially difficult for those players who don't min/max and who just like playing good stories about supers.

[Bionic_Flea]

In defense of these particular arcs though, they are incarnate content and should by definition be harder than standard level 50 content.