Improve Leadership: Assault

[biostem]

Because of the nature of higher-level play, a ~10-15% increase in damage, IMHO, works out to be much less in practice.  Additional, (and please correct m e if I'm wrong), but I think that bonus only applies to the base damage of powers, not taking into account enhancements or other buffs.  To that end, and seeing how it can't accept anything besides end redux or recharge, I'd like to see it get some buffs:

 

1. It kind of makes sense that directing your team to attack "harder" might make them resistant to slow or immobilize effects.

2. Perhaps pushing full on offense might offer a little damage resistance or absorb to your team, as they work through minor injuries.

3. Perhaps driving your team to focus on attack might make them more able to bypass an enemy's defenses, (defense debuff applied to enemies in range).

4. Similar to the above, it could impart a minor damage resistance debuff to said enemies.

5. Finally, being driven to attack might make your team less apt to be blinded or knocked aside, (minor perception debuff resistance and/or some degree of knockback resistance or protection).

 

I'm not saying Assault should get all of these buffs, but I think it should get one or maybe even a few.  Your thoughts?  Thanks for reading!

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by biostem

[Nightfall357]

I like option 1.

 

Or

 

Might even think about allowing assault to accept dmg buffs.

 

Or

 

Accuracy debuff, defense debuff, or mobility debuffs would also work.

[AlwaysAPrice]

Given it already has Taunt & Placate resistance as a nod to the idea of focusing on assault making one more resistant to distraction, I wouldn't mind a (very) tiny amount of Psi Resistance being added just to bring it into parity with Tactics & Maneuvers as a potential set/unique-IO mule. I don't really think Assault itself needs improvement, but my one gripe that gets it left out of many builds I'd like it on is that I can't do anything interesting with it slotwise.

[Clave Dark 5]

I already resent the crutch-y nature of this set that's nearly required for so many builds.  Not a fan of cookie-cutter builds, so I say thee nay!  *turns thumb down, crowd hiss and boos*  😄

[Rudra]

14 hours ago, Nightfall357 said:

I like option 1.

 

Or

 

Might even think about allowing assault to accept dmg buffs.

 

Or

 

Accuracy debuff, defense debuff, or mobility debuffs would also work.

Assault can't accept damage buffs because it doesn't do damage. And there are no damage buff buffs in the game.

 

And Assault having an accuracy debuff, defense debuff, or mobility debuff would turn it into an debuff toggle and would result in it being turned off (or suppressed when Page 4 comes out) when the character is mezzed. It also makes no sense for the power. (Edit: Assault, like the other Leadership powers, drives your allies to fight harder. That should not affect your enemies' ability to fight. They can and will fight back just as hard as normal, but you and your allies fighting harder makes it more likely that your enemies' efforts won't amount to anything. You want a pool power that debuffs your foes and is not already in the other pools? Ask for a new set set called Despair, Harangue, Undermine Morale, or whatever.)

 

I'm rather with @Clave Dark 5 on this. While I would like to make Assault able to use sets, it is already a go to power for min-max builds and even several non-min-max builds. A power already in high demand does not need or warrant being able to do more.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change "a power called assault" to "the power".

[Sovera]

I remember testing this with a Tanker (which gets a bigger version of Assault). Turning it on, hitting something. Turning it off, hitting something. 4% damage difference.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I already resent the crutch-y nature of this set that's nearly required for so many builds.  Not a fan of cookie-cutter builds, so I say thee nay!  *turns thumb down, crowd hiss and boos*  😄

Thing is, if you're looking to improve a build, maneuvers both provides an additional layer of survivability and increases DPS via LotG slotting.  Assault needs some way of actually providing you the bonus it says on the tin, and not the much lower value as a result of how the damage bonus is calculated and enemy resistances are taken into account.  I wonder if the bonus from assault could be moved way to the end of the calculation or something, or perhaps be factored in after all your enh's and other bonuses...

[Rudra]

Except it does give the bonus it says on the tin. That bonus is not subject to other buffs or other boosts, but it does stack. So while it gives a 15% damage boost, with all the other damage boosts most characters have, the overall perception is that it is lower. It does exactly what it advertises it does. Why does it need to do more?

 

(Edit: Also, those LotG procs in Manuevers only helps the character with the power. So as a team support power, I'm ignoring the effects of LotG procs in Maneuvers for this discussion.)

Edited August 3, 2022 by Rudra

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Except it does give the bonus it says on the tin. That bonus is not subject to other buffs or other boosts, but it does stack. So while it gives a 15% damage boost, with all the other damage boosts most characters have, the overall perception is that it is lower. It does exactly what it advertises it does. Why does it need to do more?

 

(Edit: Also, those LotG procs in Manuevers only helps the character with the power. So as a team support power, I'm ignoring the effects of LotG procs in Maneuvers for this discussion.)

 

It's kinda malicious technically correct to keep on mentioning it does '15% damage boost' when the simplest test shows it doing 4-5%. The label makes it seem huge, but, it's really not. Even if all eight players are affected by it it's 40% and not a 120% damage boost.

 

The label is the first thing people notice and seem to argue for or against without accepting the actual boost (hit something with Assault toggled on. Now toggle it off and hit again. Simply % calculator found on the net if math illiterate like I am, inject both numbers).

 

Now is 4-5% worth a toggle considering it goes to everyone? Maybe. The devs might think so when we read some of their posts about certain powers being 'too good' if asked for a wider angle to a cone. I might think so as well if we can get a coordinated team where all eight have Assault.

 

One person with Assault = team does 40% more damage.

 

Eight persons with Assault = team does 320%

 

My math illiteracy rears its head since it seems like too much.

 

 

Bottom line is that both Maneuvers and Assault are team wide buffs and balancing/buffing must always assume eight players will stack it.

[Uun]

The reason is that the damage boost is additive with enhancements. So, if you've got 95% in damage enhancements in a power, Assault's 15% boost (tank/controller/corruptor version) would increase your damage from 195% to 210% (a 7.7% increase). If you've got other damage buffs from set bonuses, etc., the percentage increase becomes relatively smaller.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

It's kinda malicious technically correct to keep on mentioning it does '15% damage boost' when the simplest test shows it doing 4-5%. The label makes it seem huge, but, it's really not. Even if all eight players are affected by it it's 40% and not a 120% damage boost.

There is nothing malicious about what I am posting, but you are correct in that I am being technical. And this reason you gave is why I am being technical. (Well, that and because I am always technical in my considerations.) There is no reason for a single power to grant everyone a 120% damage boost on a constant basis without any enhancement considerations. Even Build Up only gives a 100% damage boost that cannot be improved for 10 seconds. As opposed to Assault's always while within effect radius. And that would be my guess as to why Assault's 15% damage boost works the way it does. The net result is a less than 15% damage boost after all other damage buffs are applied. And since I've seen builds get to +200% damage, then that unenhanceable 15% is always going to appear smaller.

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

The reason is that the damage boost is additive with enhancements. So, if you've got 95% in damage enhancements in a power, Assault's 15% boost (tank/controller/corruptor version) would increase your damage from 195% to 210% (a 7.7% increase). If you've got other damage buffs from set bonuses, etc., the percentage increase becomes relatively smaller.

I get what you're saying, but the issue is that 15% to *base* damage is not the same as 15% to "final" damage.  When I look at the damage my character is dealing, I'm thinking in terms of what is splashing against the enemy, not the earliest pre-enhancement value.  It'd be like a casino saying they were going to double your money if you won, but were only actually referring to your original bet, and not the final value if there was some 10:1 odds in play or something...

[Rudra]

Which again boils down to just how OP do you want this power to be? It stacks with itself. So it should not be affected by other buffs. It should not be calculated at the end after all other buffs have been applied. If it did, then using a 95% enhancement bonus boost, not set bonus, with the Assault bonus, you would go from 210% damage as is to 224.25% damage . On a power that is already part of the Holy Quad 'must use or be noob forever' power sets.

 

And if you want to look at parity with Maneuvers? Maneuvers gives a boost to your and your allies' defense. All defense, but just defense. Assault boosts your and your allies' damage. All your and your allies' damage. It also provides resist to Placate and Taunt. So you and your allies can keep attacking the target(s) you want. Parity with Tactics would be unreasonable because Tactics is a gated power whereas Maneuvers and Assault are not.

 

Edit: And those calculations are if you are solo or the only member with Assault. Now apply it to a full team of 8 with everyone running Assault.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove "increase" from "damage increase" so it reads as "damage".

[biostem]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It also provides resist to Placate and Taunt.

Which are extremely circumstantial and rarely encountered.

 

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So it should not be affected by other buffs.

My contention is that the base value of your attacks is not, in fact, the "real" damage that your attacks do, (unless you don't slot for damage at all).  I get the concerns over it stacking, but again, I must reiterate - let's say you had some sort of engine mod that made your car go 10% faster - would you be satisfied with that claim if they said "well, that value is based upon your car going 10mph", instead of the actual speed it's traveling at?

[TheZag]

If assault were multiplied by final damage instead of added like it is currently,  it would have to be changed to not stack with itself.  That would mean less total buff if several people are using it.  Overall,  the leadership pool is very strong.  Something else would probably have to get nerfed for assault to get a buff.

 

[Luminara]

39 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'm thinking in terms of what is splashing against the enemy, not the earliest pre-enhancement value.

 

I didn't even have to edit that to make it dirty.  Well done.

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Overall,  the leadership pool is very strong. 

I don't disagree, but it isn't because of assault.

 

12 minutes ago, TheZag said:

it would have to be changed to not stack with itself.

Tactics buffs tohit instead of acc, and it didn't have to be changed top not stack with itself.

 

13 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Something else would probably have to get nerfed for assault to get a buff.

It isn't a zero-sum game.  Also, +dmg is much easier to come by than tohit or defense.  It's also why I advocated for other effects besides just changing how the +dmg is calculated...

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which are extremely circumstantial and rarely encountered.

 

My contention is that the base value of your attacks is not, in fact, the "real" damage that your attacks do, (unless you don't slot for damage at all).  I get the concerns over it stacking, but again, I must reiterate - let's say you had some sort of engine mod that made your car go 10% faster - would you be satisfied with that claim if they said "well, that value is based upon your car going 10mph", instead of the actual speed it's traveling at?

If I remember correctly, there was a discussion early on Live about the Leadership powers and why they worked the way they do now. There was discussion about the Leadership powers, particularly Assault, using different calculations for their boosts. However, it was decided they would work as is so that other players could take the pool set without fear of trying to join a team and being told the team already had someone with Leadership. That is why the Leadership powers stack with themselves. That is why Assault calculates from base unenhanced damage. Otherwise, the powers would not have stacked.

 

Edit: Also, your analogy is flawed. A mod that improves your engine's performance by 10% would be factored as doing so without any other mods to the engine. Which is what Assault does to your damage.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

That is why Assault calculates from base unenhanced damage. Otherwise, the powers would not have stacked.

Can you provide a quote or source to that effect?  The leadership pool, (or at least the 3 core powers), have always stacked, so I'm not sure where that comes from.  This whole discussion kind of reminds me about talk about the "2 shot" legendary effect in Fallout 4 and 76 - the description says "fires an additional projectile", which for most weapons is a significant increase in damage, but for ones like shotguns, it is a very minimal increase, since they consider each pellet a projectile, (as opposed to the colloquial interpretation that the effect doubled the number of rounds/cartridges).  What it comes down to is if a power says it increases damage by X%, then the difference between having the power toggled off and on should be that %.

[Rudra]

55 minutes ago, biostem said:

Can you provide a quote or source to that effect?  The leadership pool, (or at least the 3 core powers), have always stacked, so I'm not sure where that comes from.  This whole discussion kind of reminds me about talk about the "2 shot" legendary effect in Fallout 4 and 76 - the description says "fires an additional projectile", which for most weapons is a significant increase in damage, but for ones like shotguns, it is a very minimal increase, since they consider each pellet a projectile, (as opposed to the colloquial interpretation that the effect doubled the number of rounds/cartridges).  What it comes down to is if a power says it increases damage by X%, then the difference between having the power toggled off and on should be that %.

No, I cannot. Sorry. You would have to find the Live forum files and look there. I'm only telling you what was circulating among the people I played with back on Live at the time. So it is strictly hearsay. I was not on the forums at that time. Hence the "If I remember correctly, there was a discussion...". And the discussion was not about a change to the Leadership pool, it was about why the pool was working the way it does.

[Uun]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

I get what you're saying, but the issue is that 15% to *base* damage is not the same as 15% to "final" damage.  When I look at the damage my character is dealing, I'm thinking in terms of what is splashing against the enemy, not the earliest pre-enhancement value.  It'd be like a casino saying they were going to double your money if you won, but were only actually referring to your original bet, and not the final value if there was some 10:1 odds in play or something...

All damage buffs in the game work the same way. Fulcrum Shift, Buildup, Fortitude, Overgrowth, Empowering Circuit, you name it. They all calculate off base damage. I'm not arguing that Assault should or shouldn't be increased. I'm just explaining how the math works.

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, Uun said:

All damage buffs in the game work the same way. Fulcrum Shift, Buildup, Fortitude, Overgrowth, Empowering Circuit, you name it. They all calculate off base damage. I'm not arguing that Assault should or shouldn't be increased. I'm just explaining how the math works.

 

To expand on that:

In addition to this very short list of examples, tack on enhancements, IO set bonuses, Vigilance, Alpha +Enhancement values and everything else one doesn't typically refer to as "powers".  All +Damage is a single effect, regardless of source, and that's why it's additive.  It has to be additive because it's all-encompassing.  If it were multiplicative, it would multiply every +Damage source, including those enhancements, set bonuses, buffs, everything.  Every Damage enhancement slotted would buff both itself and any other slotted Damage enhancements in that power.  Turning on Assault or popping Aim would buff every enhancement and Assault or Aim.  There's no flag, no code in the game, which limits that at this time, so controlling it would require new code,  The "Ignores buffs and enhancements" code wouldn't work, because that would just prevent +Damage from working at all.  Simultaneous with the new limiting code and a redesign of the basic damage formula, every Damage buff in the game would have to be revised.  They'd also have to comb through all critter, pet and NPC powers, silent powers, temporary powers... basically every power in the game which deals damage, buffs Damage or can be slotted for Damage would require attention.

 

The alternative would be to create an entirely new category of +Damage, separate and distinct from the existing one, which could be buffed, limited and controlled, and place it in the game alongside the existing +Damage, but reserve it for use in specific capacities, like enhancements, set bonuses and certain powers, and make it function with the "Ignores buffs and enhancements" flag.  But that would still require months of work to create it, integrate it and revise every power to use it.

 

And in the end, it would probably cause more problems than it would solve.  In fact, there's only one problem really looking to be solved, the less than honest representation of how +Damage affects powers, and it would be so much easier to just add a notification somewhere, or a brief one-line explanation to a trainer or information NPC, so players would understand that taking Assault on a controller doesn't mean their powers deal 1.15x damage, it means they have the equivalent of a -1 Damage DO added to their powers' damage.

 

I am, obviously, not the person to write that one-liner.  My one-liners are porn jokes and movie references.

[TheZag]

As i said earlier,  i dont think leadership needs a boost since its already one of the best pools.  With that said,  if leadership/assault were to get a boost,  i would prefer to see as chance for an effect if all 3 toggles are running.  Many people dont run all 3 constantly because its a fair amount of endurance drain and we are often capped for accuracy and defense.  That could give a reason to run all 3 while on a team again,  especially if others are running leadership as well.

 

'A good leader knows how to improve their teams effectiveness.  If you are running assault,  maneuvers,  and tactics simultaneously,  yourself and allies in range have a chance (aprox. 1 PPM) to have their recharge time reduced by 30% for 6 seconds.  The chance is increased while under the effect of victory rush (1.5 PPM) and occurs immediately if you use vengeance.'

 

Thats just my thought and it could be a different effect with a different chance.  Its just an example for another way to approach a leadership buff.

 

 

[BrandX]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:08 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

I already resent the crutch-y nature of this set that's nearly required for so many builds.  Not a fan of cookie-cutter builds, so I say thee nay!  *turns thumb down, crowd hiss and boos*  😄

 

I never found it required, but still it's so useful, especially for those trying to hit Softcap with Maneuvers.  However, past that one power, does one really need any other from the set other than a desire for them?  

[Clave Dark 5]

16 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I never found it required, but still it's so useful, especially for those trying to hit Softcap

Exactly my point, nothing is REQUIRED, and yet nearly everyone always goes for it.