Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Gobbledigook]

Brutes are in the middle. I do not see an easy way of improving them with out stepping on Tanker or Scrapper toes. If they had more damage they would be too close to Scrapper damage with much better survival. If they had better survival then they would be too close to Tankers with better damage.

 

Maybe give them 2 stance choices. A dps stance where the Brute effectively becomes a Scrapper with a tiny bit less damage. Losing +health etc to scrapper levels. A Tanker stance giving near Tanker mitigation/health but loss of damage. Not quite as good as either of those AT but more flexible in it's choices. No stance would be what we have now.

 

A decent ATO proc for Brutes could really help. Half +damage of some sort and half +mitigation. Or let it give +max Fury.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Gobbledigook]

Personally i am fine with my Bio or my 3k health Stone Brute being a little less dps than a Scrapper because i have more survival. And in a team my survival can sky rocket whilst still doing awesome dps.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Sovera]

I've switched from Tankers to Brutes and been playing these for a year now as the shift in my threads shows. People want to iron man in a vacuum and that's hard to argue with or against.

 

But my Brutes start soloing Posi 1 at 0x6 or 0x8 by the time they are level 20 (liberal usage of purples since CoT suck). My Tanker does the same (even in regard of inspirations). Then they move to +1x8 at Synapse, and again same for the Tanker (both need the occasional inspiration as they are slowly whittled down, but more so the Brute). By Yin the Tanker can probably no longer use inspirations (except at the AV because -def sucks). Moonfire can require the -very- occasional inspiration (because Vampyr stacking -ToHit and doing negative damage suck) from either AT but in my experience the Brute who has a Build-up will just tear them before they get many hits in. By Citadel and onwards until ITF neither uses inspirations again.

 

Take this with a gain of salt but anyone who pays attention to my posts knows I've done a cool several several dozens of these runs with either AT which lets me speak of my experiences and not on an isolated case (Stone Armor Brutes ignore inspirations pretty much since Posi but still require them for that specific TF because of the -def, but from Synapse up they no longer need or touch them).

 

The Brutes are definitely squishier than the Tankers, but for 80% of the content it does not matter (while I'm soloing at +1x8). The other 20% I use inspirations where needed. And this is the iron man part I talk about.

 

When someone posted about doing their +0x2 duo and occasional Brute deaths my question is where are the inspirations?

 

 

I have tried to compensate for the Tanker's damage by gobbling reds. Keep one read going at all times until the mission ends and then replenish. Didn't make a discernable difference to be honest. It was my infamous Stone/MA Tanker with mind blowing numbers but it slowly sanded +1 enemies to death even with the reds.

 

-I- get a low more mileage from the occasional as-the-situation-demands inspiration for my Brutes (at least until the defences are consolidated and then they stop being needed) while doing more damage than I got from the Tanker keeping a red going at all times.

 

Stone Armor in particular is disgusting with Tanker level survival and HP in terms of soloing while having Brute damage (AKA not even using inspirations while soloing and leveling at near softcap).

 

 

The insistence in this thread is finding some mythical perfect niche for a Brute while ignoring the game does not behave like that. We have Scrappers and Stalkers and Brutes who are all only slightly different flavors of the same (Stalkers in particular have no niche ever since stealth became nothing more than the initial strike for every fight and then not coming into play until the next one, in the meanwhile they scrap like Scrappers).

 

What can I say? Nothing. I don't even understand this thread. This is no other MMO where Rogues get nerfed and people are upset because if they want to keep up they should play a Shaman and that means switching to ranged and/or learning a whole class and its nuances. Here people who put Tankers in a pedestal can just switch to one, no difference in playing from their Brutes.

 

 

Asking for more damage will be difficult with the last pass actually slightly nerfing the damage cap. An useless tweak since only in spreadsheets does a Kin manage to put a team at damage cap. In real life the mobs are blown to pieces before the Kin can get close (I know, I've played a Kin, and got tired of it (caveat, in the new content mobs do live long enough for a Kin to throw multiple FS' per fight making this relevant. Long term planning from the devs?)). Asking for more or better survival might be iffy as well since they are pretty tuned per tests ran.

 

The ATOs are definitely crap, but they are so easy to obtain that their effects might as well be baked into the AT instead of 'but what if the <AT> is not running their ATOs??'. This is not my purview though, it's going to be the devs figuring it out.

 

 

Am I against Brutes being buffed? Crap on a stick, it's the darn AT I play, of course I am not against it! Am I against Tankers be nerfed? I don't even play them seriously so it's no big deal but on principle yes. I don't need to remind anyone how Tankers were a crap AT and people's immediate advice was to not roll a Tanker but do a Brute instead.

 

Is the hard content harder on melers? Why yes, you're paying for the ease of leveling, ease of soloing, and immunity to CC. CoH is pretty bad at teaching people to manage defensives or positioning since the game teaches to just square one's feet and gird one's loins and then facetank everything without moving. Any other game would be 'hehe no, you move out of the glowing shit or you die', so of course hard content is particularly hard when we've been conditioned to just passively take on things.

 

Look at Linea's post where they mention how they play the 801 series and stagger defensives, accolades, temp powers, T9s, or in some cases stack them, then keep track of all cooldowns and be ready to bounce off to kite until the next cooldown is up. Can those who are having a hard time with the hard content say they are doing the same?

 

 

Am I tired of the forum PvP that has been developing? Yes, yes I am. Am I partly to blame for it? Also maybe, yeah, sure. I apologize to those I've ruffled the feathers of, you're all good people and I enjoy talking and discussing things even if we seldomly actually play together.

 

Devs are the ones who need to be talked to and convinced, not other players.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Sovera

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Brutes are in the middle. I do not see an easy way of improving them with out stepping on Tanker or Scrapper toes. If they had more damage they would be too close to Scrapper damage with much better survival. If they had better survival then they would be too close to Tankers with better damage.

 

Maybe give them 2 stance choices. A dps stance where the Brute effectively becomes a Scrapper with a tiny bit less damage. Losing +health etc to scrapper levels. A Tanker stance giving near Tanker mitigation/health but loss of damage. Not quite as good as either of those AT but more flexible in it's choices. No stance would be what we have now.

 

A decent ATO proc for Brutes could really help. Half +damage of some sort and half +mitigation. Or let it give +max Fury.

 

Maybe have a time based toggle like dominators have but for fury which doubles it but in turn cuts mitigation in half for it's duration - but you are literally enfuriated and have no consideration for your own survival.  lol

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

If you asked me, I have answers, but they result in benefiting farming which is a non-starter and increased power creep which I'd like to avoid.

Realistically, there's no improvement that can be made to Brutes that won't help farmers. So the devs can either just nerf them into the ground (which will just cause people to farm with another AT) or they can do something specifically to thwart farming, or they can just fix Brutes and not worry about farming.

 

But please don't not suggest anything just because you think it will help the farmers. Anything done to improve Brutes will help farmers.

.

Edited August 29, 2022 by PeregrineFalcon
typo

[Erratic1]

52 minutes ago, lemming said:

Maybe some way of front loading survivability in an encounter.   Maybe the more fury builds, the lower the Def/Resist Cap, but at zero Fury, they'd be nearly untouchable.   And probably start their damage a little higher and with a bigger damage cap for fury as well to somewhat make up for that.

 

Not sure how workable this could be, I can see a few issues just now.

 

Just noted Troo said a similar

 

Damage deferment. Convert a certain percentage (could be based on Fury level at damage application) to a DoT. Of course you could end up in a situation where too much damage over time is coming in.....

 

Another downside is it would delay when a rest cod could begin unless you code the application differently.

 

Edit: And tired it to the AT IO.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Erratic1

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

How would you improve Brutes if you could?

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

I would not answer on this forum. Honestly.  There is too much flame war madness.  The closer you got to a good solution the angrier the responses would be

 

I would note that any ATO that is regularly avoided in good builds needs a second look.  
 

also, the Tanker AoE just felt like a nut punch.  Tankers needed something, but they just moved right into Brute territory as damage dealers rather than doing something Tankerish like a pseudo pet power allowing them to hold agro of 34 or some such

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I would not answer on this forum. Honestly.  There is too much flame war madness.  The closer you got to a good solution the angrier the responses would be

 

Serious observation. 

 

Please don't take it personal, if you need to take it personal you can - but again try not to because I am not intending this to be a slap.

 

You would rather start a thread - this one... Lamenting the situation of Brute's at the hands of tankers - knowing full well what response you would get (flame war), but you will not openly discuss creative/constructive solutions to the issue you are lamenting because you are worried about the flame war that would ensue.

 

Do you see the issue here?

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Serious observation. 

 

Please don't take it personal, if you need to take it personal you can - but again try not to because I am not intending this to be a slap.

 

You would rather start a thread - this one... Lamenting the situation of Brute's at the hands of tankers - knowing full well what response you would get (flame war), but you will not openly discuss creative/constructive solutions to the issue you are lamenting because you are worried about the flame war that would ensue.

 

Do you see the issue here?

Nope.

 

Serious reinterpretation.

 

I paint ugly undead oil canvases. I play bad music. I throw out horrid posts.  My right, that is how I express myself.

 

But I am a wise old undead. Paint an ugly picture, fine.  That is my view of...something.  But to stand around the gallery and discuss with (mostly) a bunch of half educated uninspired eager to critize wanna be artists how to "fix it"     Yeah, no thanks.  That is like asking to be beat up by the line of passengers in Airplane.  I may be crazy but I am not stupid.

[roleki]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Serious observation. 

 

Please don't take it personal, if you need to take it personal you can - but again try not to because I am not intending this to be a slap.

 

You would rather start a thread - this one... Lamenting the situation of Brute's at the hands of tankers - knowing full well what response you would get (flame war), but you will not openly discuss creative/constructive solutions to the issue you are lamenting because you are worried about the flame war that would ensue.

 

Do you see the issue here?

 

I'm not going to pretend I speak for anyone, but I can see where Snark is coming from with this; he may have a perfectly valid and cromulent 'fix' in mind, but given the number of fart captains patrolling the boards these days, it's not even worth the effort to propose them because it's all just fuel to the fire anymore.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

I'm not going to pretend I speak for anyone, but I can see where Snark is coming from with this; he may have a perfectly valid and cromulent 'fix' in mind, but given the number of fart captains patrolling the boards these days, it's not even worth the effort to propose them because it's all just fuel to the fire anymore.

 

He already started the fire though.   May as well try to gain rather than not gain.

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Nope.

 

Serious reinterpretation.

 

I paint ugly undead oil canvases. I play bad music. I throw out horrid posts.  My right, that is how I express myself.

 

But I am a wise old undead. Paint an ugly picture, fine.  That is my view of...something.  But to stand around the gallery and discuss with (mostly) a bunch of half educated uninspired eager to critize wanna be artists how to "fix it"     Yeah, no thanks.  That is like asking to be beat up by the line of passengers in Airplane.  I may be crazy but I am not stupid.

 

You in essence did the same thing though by starting this thread - with the same people you just insulted - they are still reading your thread, will comment on your thread.

 

Why not put forth your ideas because you started the fire either way.

[Snarky]

Just now, Infinitum said:

 

You in essence did the same thing though by starting this thread - with the same people you just insulted - they are still reading your thread, will comment on your thread.

 

Why not put forth your ideas because you started the fire either way.

Nice try.  But creating a painting and putting it on a wall (or writing a screed) for others to react to and joining in a serious (and sometimes heated) discussion over the meaning of the work are two separate things.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Nice try.  But creating a painting and putting it on a wall (or writing a screed) for others to react to and joining in a serious (and sometimes heated) discussion over the meaning of the work are two separate things.

 

Kinda hard to respect that to be 100% honest with you.

[PeregrineFalcon]

36 minutes ago, Snarky said:

But I am a wise old undead. Paint an ugly picture, fine.  That is my view of...something.  But to stand around the gallery and discuss with (mostly) a bunch of half educated uninspired eager to critize wanna be artists how to "fix it"     Yeah, no thanks.  That is like asking to be beat up by the line of passengers in Airplane.  I may be crazy but I am not stupid.

Understandable. Especially considering that the Homecoming devs, based on past history, are extremely unlikely to actually implement any suggested improvements.

 

Are you willing to tell us what you think of our suggestions, should we make them?

 

No pressure, old bean. Like I said, I do actually understand your point of view on this.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Understandable. Especially considering that the Homecoming devs, based on past history, are extremely unlikely to actually implement any suggested improvements.

 

That is completely not true - in fact there is recent precedent when it was found invul and other typed defense based sets were found to be more vulnerable to the typed defense tag change - the extra mitigation was added in NEXT DAY.

 

In the early days of the tanker patch testing - CPH reverted part of it until it was demonstrated the reversion was worse than the original setup with gauntlet - it was re reverted the next day.

 

There are plenty of other changes also that they listened on especially if you actually do the tests and show your work instead of blanket complaining like this thread with no professed goal - in the OPs own words.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Understandable. Especially considering that the Homecoming devs, based on past history, are extremely unlikely to actually implement any suggested improvements.

 

Ummm, point of order, I suggested a while back that the emp to reward merit conversion should be removed when I was reminded that it existed, having never utilized it. They are listening. It's arguable that what they choose to listen to is highly subjective.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

 

That is completely not true - in fact there is recent precedent when it was found invul and other typed defense based sets were found to be more vulnerable to the typed defense tag change - the extra mitigation was added in NEXT DAY.

 

In the early days of the tanker patch testing - CPH reverted part of it until it was demonstrated the reversion was worse than the original setup with gauntlet - it was re reverted the next day.

 

There are plenty of other changes also that they listened on especially if you actually do the tests and show your work instead of blanket complaining like this thread with no professed goal - in the OPs own words.

 

Exactly. They made the already ridiculously strong even stronger.

 

[Snarky]

16 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Understandable. Especially considering that the Homecoming devs, based on past history, are extremely unlikely to actually implement any suggested improvements.

 

Are you willing to tell us what you think of our suggestions, should we make them?

 

No pressure, old bean. Like I said, I do actually understand your point of view on this.

yes, in an informal way.  i just comment here randomly.  last couple days actively.  i am hardly a great opinion maker.  but i am opinionated.

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That is completely not true - in fact there is recent precedent when it was found invul and other typed defense based sets were found to be more vulnerable to the typed defense tag change - the extra mitigation was added in NEXT DAY.

 

In the early days of the tanker patch testing - CPH reverted part of it until it was demonstrated the reversion was worse than the original setup with gauntlet - it was re reverted the next day.

 

There are plenty of other changes also that they listened on especially if you actually do the tests and show your work instead of blanket complaining like this thread with no professed goal - in the OPs own words.

There are obviously some things the Devs value greatly.  Others, not so much.  the fact that Sentinels need a complete rework has just laid there like road kill....how long?  I have a Elec/Temp Blaster that is more survivable than any Sentinel and can outblast the things with half its powers tied behind its back.  The fact thatBrutes are getting crapped on?  Considering some of the crap, intentional or not, was written by this group of Devs?  Yeah.  Not gonna wait too long for a "Lets rush in and fix this! Snarky just posted the bestest idea on the Brute forum!"

[PeregrineFalcon]

37 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ummm, point of order, I suggested a while back that the emp to reward merit conversion should be removed when I was reminded that it existed, having never utilized it. They are listening. It's arguable that what they choose to listen to is highly subjective.

It's been repeatedly suggested, even in a thread started by a moderator asking for these suggestions, that Mercs and Assault Rifle get a major fix/buff. And while both have received a minor change, it was neither a fix nor a buff.

 

So it's easy to argue that they are listening about some things, but not so much about others. And yeah, I am aware that they're a small team and can only work on so many things at once, which is probably the real reason that some things get addressed and others ignored.

[PeregrineFalcon]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

There are obviously some things the Devs value greatly.  Others, not so much.  the fact that Sentinels need a complete rework has just laid there like road kill....how long?

I honestly think that both Brutes and Sentinels are suffering from the same problem. The devs don't know what to do to fix them that won't completely invalidate their adjacent ATs.

 

How do you fix a Brute without invalidating Tankers and Scrappers? How do you fix a Sentinel without invalidating Blasters and Corruptors? Frankly, I don't know. And I suspect that the devs don't either.

[Bill Z Bubba]

You fix brutes by rolling back the tank changes. Nothing else needs doin.

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You fix brutes by rolling back the tank changes. Nothing else needs doin.

Are Tanks really so great that they're overshadowing Brutes now? Do they down Pylons faster than Brutes? Do they clear content faster than Brutes? Do they farm more than Brutes?

 

Other than survive, what do Tankers do better than Brutes?

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Are Tanks really so great that they're overshadowing Brutes now? Do they down Pylons faster than Brutes? Do they clear content faster than Brutes? Do they farm more than Brutes?

 

Other than survive, what do Tankers do better than Brutes?

 

I know the answer to this.

 

First part: verifyably no

 

Second part: they make Bill's face twitch better than a brute does.

 

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You fix brutes by rolling back the tank changes. Nothing else needs doin.

 

See what I mean - that's at least 5 cheek clicks and a neck jerk there.