Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Erratic1]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

Say what? You lost me.

 

Don't tell me Brutes are fine is what it should say.

[Troo]

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

[Astralock]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

 

No.

[The_Warpact]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Don't tell me Brutes are fine is what it should say.

Oh hell no that's what I posted, broots and MMs are in a bad place right now.

[The_Warpact]

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

Fire farms...

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Oh hell no that's what I posted, broots and MMs are in a bad place right now.

 

Why I specified a generic you. 

[Infinitum]

43 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

TFs are the content where unless you have a significantly full team, you don't run. Teaming encompasses down to two man, and two-man TFs are rare short of IO set overloaded gods flexing. That two-man team I ran last night on my Brute ran at +0x0 whereas my last Talker at the same level was soloing +2x4 content. The Brute had fo rest every 2-3 pulls for health (or after a single pull if multiple oranges or a red was involved) even baked by an Emparhy corruptor.

 

On a full team a Scrapper can serve the alpha absorption role and after that, who cares who is on the team? 

 

What TF?  Again all of my Brutes are capable of running any TF +4/8 no issues.

45 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Oh, you forced to take and slot Tough/Weave? The horrors! Brutes have been there, done that.

 

I routinely take and slot tough/weave on my scrappers, stalkers, Brute's, and tankers the fact that you think it is funny tells me where your survivability issues are 

47 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I find it interesting I can reference Tankers clearing content faster than Brutes and that gets pooh-poohed as a result of the properly chosen powersets for that to occur but there are seemingly no powersets brutes can take to reach equal time (while surviving) nor equal Tanker survivability.

 

That is because they don't outside from one cherry picked set 9n one cherry picked mission that really does not simulate normal gameplay well enough IMO - @Galaxy Brainbuilt a brutal mission simulator that is far easier to test and more like what you would face in routine missions - and guess what Brute's survived and cleared faster than tankers.

 

49 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

What is your reference for Brutes being fine other than feeling it?

See above - before trapdoor was a thing this was tested extensively with the Brute's having a 15-20% edge over the tankers in clear times.

 

50 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

1. Because Brute's can still output more damage especially ST damage. Safely

 

2. I do think Brute's do need a minor buff but not to bring them back to the days of City of Brute's like before where they were out damaging scrappers and blasters with near tanker mitigation.

 

Which leads me here below.

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

 

Brute's fury gives a fury bonus that is no longer needed for the T6 enh in the set and unrelenting fury gives a Regen and end proc which is less than optimal IMO.

 

The tanker ATO - Especially MotT is the clear winner here. 

 

So give the Brute one with a creative dmg proc and one with a creative res/def proc.

 

That would go a long way IMO.

 

51 minutes ago, Snarky said:

 I seriously think I could play a Sentinel more effectively at 50 incarnate content for survivability and damage than a Brute

 

I would love to see that

 

23 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

SM/Elec s never going to be as tough as other pairings of powersets. I worry about how survivable he will be in the end and am certain it will be less than the DM/Elec I had on Live or the SS/Bio who is my pride and joy as goes Btutes.

 

Elec armor shines on a brute because you can build high resistances and softcap melee defense - then if needed rotate melee core and barrier or rebirth if it is really nasty. It is practically unkillable.

[Infinitum]

19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

 

Mitigation that approaches tanker levels while outputting greater damage especially ST dmg when you need a hard target to take out a hard target - Brute is what I use.

[Erratic1]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

What TF?  Again all of my Brutes are capable of running any TF +4/8 no issues.

 

I routinely take and slot tough/weave on my scrappers, stalkers, Brute's, and tankers the fact that you think it is funny tells me where your survivability issues are 

 

Keeping this short because it is clear you're not reading and I lack the strength to waste time on that behavior.

 

(1) I wrote of the difference between TFs, which typically have more players and hence a greater likelihood of buffing/support vs other teaming, such as two-man.

 

(2) I wrote about Tankers and Tough/Weave. I never remotely suggested other melees not taking and fully using those powers. In fact I said the opposite. But hey, why would you let that get in the way of being insulting?

 

Since you are perfectly right in all your pronouncements, I am not going fo bother to say otherwise to you.

 

Edit: 

Quote

Elec armor shines on a brute because you can build high resistances and softcap melee defense - then if needed rotate melee core and barrier or rebirth if it is really nasty. It is practically unkillable.

 

I wrote in comparison to my previous (and mentioned) DM/Elec, which clearly is going to trump the SM/Elec.

 

But again on the not reading and clearly always being right

Edited August 29, 2022 by Erratic1

[Troo]

23 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Fire farms...

 

nay.. dare I say Brutes aren't the best farmers, just the easiest.

note: Rad/Fire Brutes are simply nerf bait as Irradiated Ground is in the shop to be fixed.

 

12 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Mitigation that approaches tanker levels while outputting greater damage especially ST dmg when you need a hard target to take out a hard target - Brute is what I use.

 

I agree that second or third place across multiple categories can result in a high aggregate score.

[Snarky]

I am serious about the Sentinel at Incarnate content being better.  I joined my current SG that does regularly scheduled “Really Hard Way” Magisterium Incarnate Trials.  I brought a a character I had played for nearly a year every day. A Dark/Dark Brute no expenses spared solid toon I was good on.  It was so miserable, so many deaths for me, the SG thought I would never come back.  I built a Beam/Temp Blaster for incarnate work.  But one of the SG leaders uses a Sentinel and does fine. Because they are not stuck in melee against content that HATES melee. I did build an Elec/Temp Blaster with better survival than almost any Sentinel and far more damage.  Of course I wrote a thread on it if you want to dig.
 

But the point is Brutes are not the best at Tanking and every design decision seems to further degrade their position.  Make Tankers better at AoE. Bring in mechanics that reward overcap Resistance, bring in mechanics that have Ranged NPCs plink at who generates agro, add more damage patches melee punishing timers.  I get it.  The game design does not reward Brute play.  Fine, I will do something else

 

point of fact i have found an archetype/build in another game with high armor and very good melee damage and it looks like that is where I will be for another six months at least

Edited August 29, 2022 by Snarky

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Fine, I will do something else

 

All devs play hero side blasters tends to explain a lot of what has happened over time.. so I've heard.

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Keeping this short because it is clear you're not reading and I lack the strength to waste time on that behavior.

 

(1) I wrote of the difference between TFs, which typically have more players and hence a greater likelihood of buffing/support vs other teaming, such as two-man.

 

(2) I wrote about Tankers and Tough/Weave. I never remotely suggested other melees not taking and fully using those powers. In fact I said the opposite. But hey, why would you let that get in the way of being insulting?

 

Since you are perfectly right in all your pronouncements, I am not going fo bother to say otherwise to you.

 

Edit: 

 

I wrote in comparison to my previous (and mentioned) DM/Elec, which clearly is going to trump the SM/Elec.

 

But again on the not reading and clearly always being right

 

What are you even saying here my friend?

 

You are listing no specifics when I have asked you for them.

 

So don't go there. If I want to have an argument based on gray areas and ignoring my requests and suggestions - I will go pick a fight with my wife about something stupid I should ultimately keep my mouth shut on.

 

I can't help you or why your Brutes are dropping like flys when mine aren't if you can't give me specifics on builds or TFs

 

Because it doesn't add up to me what issues you are having and why you are being so dang difficult.

 

Honestly it reminds me of the first toy story where the kid got Buzz lightyear and woody felt underappreciated - both were still awesome but brute players likewise have their feelings hurt because they are no longer the new toy on the shelf even though they still are pretty darn awesome.

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

But the point is Brutes are not the best at Tanking and every design decision seems to further degrade their position.

How would you improve Brutes if you could?

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

[The_Warpact]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

Hhhmmm it seems someone has slipped free from the stockade. THE AUTHORITIES MUST BE NOTIFIED AT ONCE!

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

 

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

Seems to me most of the, "Brutes fine" crowd only ever show up in the Brute subforum to naysay anything changing for Brutes, otherwise most of their existence is off discussing an AT which has a reason for existence.

 

 

There are definitely a large amount of people that hate Brutes even existing. Some of those people are responsible for changes in this game. Brutes have from the start meant to be the class in between Tankers and Scrappers, so I can definitely see why balancing them was difficult. Tankers absolutely got overtuned to the point that Brutes don't even seem necessary any more for even regular content. The issue before the overtune was that there wasn't a need for Tankers because content could be handled just fine without a Tankers amazing survivablity. So instead of creating content requiring that from a Tanker, the AT was overtuned to make the existence of rolling a Brute over a Tanker pointless even for regular content. So, this genie is out of the bottle. To make Brutes relevant again I dunno what would need to be done. Have the Fury mechanic also boost Absorb/Res/Def along with DMG or something?

 

I remember when the game was City of Brutes. I hate the idea of it going back to that, but it's City of Tankers now.

Edited August 29, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

I remember when the game was City of Brutes. I hate the idea of it going back to that, but it's City of Tankers now.

 

That is not even close to being true when Corruptors among others are doing the things we read about every single day on here.

[roleki]

49 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

Angst.  Brute angst outpaces Sentinel angst by a country mile, and comes really close to out-angsting the xEATs.  The other day I logged in to find my Staff/Regen Brute was hanging around Hot Topic.

 

We know Brutes don't excel at any one thing, they just split the difference between a Tank and a Scrapper, more or less.  In theory, if you drew a line representing 'survivability' with Scrapper at one end, and Tank at the other, Brute would be pegged in the middle.  Same goes with damage output.  Now, if you buff Scrapper survivability or Tank damage, if you don't make a corresponding move to re-center the Brute on that line, then it's going to seem like the AT is getting short-changed.   

 

I would argue that Brutes got the shittiest ATOs of the melee types, their inherent is janky as hell, and they never got a corresponding damage buff when Tanks got so blessed.  In that light, Brutes have been getting screwed for the better part of a decade by every dev team that ever beheld them.  But, until the scourge of farming is rooted out, they won't touch Brutes except maybe to make them even shittier.  Maybe when that happens, the character creator will just ask "Tank or EMP?" and you just press the button and boom, you're a level 50 doing PI radios the right way.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, roleki said:

I would argue that Brutes got the shittiest ATOs of the melee types

 

100% Truth

4 minutes ago, roleki said:

and they never got a corresponding damage buff when Tanks got so blessed

 

They actually had their damage cap nerfed because - and I didn't run these numbers but someone demonstrated how certain Brute's riding the dmg cap were out damaging blasters with tanker like survivability.  

 

This was all during the testing for the tanker patch - I want to say November whatever year that patch was in Beta.

[roleki]

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

They actually had their damage cap nerfed because - and I didn't run these numbers but someone demonstrated how certain Brute's riding the dmg cap were out damaging blasters with tanker like survivability.  

 

This was all during the testing for the tanker patch - I want to say November whatever year that patch was in Beta.

I have no trouble believing that; if there's one thing I've learned about these devs, it's that they love themselves a small sample size to work from.

 

And to be honest, I've been around here for the better part of three years, and I have never seen forum mainstays grumbling as much as they have leading up to and following P4.  I get that change is not always popular, but people who used to be the voice of relative reason in tumultuous times are the ones being turbulent now.  That can't be a good sign.

Edited August 29, 2022 by roleki

[Troo]

27 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

How would you improve Brutes if you could?

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

 

If you asked me, I have answers, but they result in benefiting farming which is a non-starter and increased power creep which I'd like to avoid.

 

Likely a toning down of the melee specific hate/punishment would help Broots. Some clever design could lower the front loaded punishment and increase subsequent punishment in an encounter. Create teachable aspects that reward desired tactics without being extremely punitive to a whole class. (maybe, I'm just spit balling)

[Infinitum]

23 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

If you asked me, I have answers, but they result in benefiting farming which is a non-starter and increased power creep which I'd like to avoid.

 

Likely a toning down of the melee specific hate/punishment would help Broots. Some clever design could lower the front loaded punishment and increase subsequent punishment in an encounter. Create teachable aspects that reward desired tactics without being extremely punitive to a whole class. (maybe, I'm just spit balling)

 

 

You could do all that with an ATO redesign

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

You could do all that with an ATO redesign

 

but without aiding farming? if so, it would be worthy to consider.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

but without aiding farming? if so, it would be worthy to consider.

 

Absolutely - Furthermore my gut tells me the Devs are trying to work away from farming being an all controlling factor in crucial decisions.

 

This is why I am ok with the farming nerfs even though I utilize one for leveling - eventually it will lead to us having nicer updates elsewhere.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Infinitum

[lemming]

Maybe some way of front loading survivability in an encounter.   Maybe the more fury builds, the lower the Def/Resist Cap, but at zero Fury, they'd be nearly untouchable.   And probably start their damage a little higher and with a bigger damage cap for fury as well to somewhat make up for that.

 

Not sure how workable this could be, I can see a few issues just now.

 

Just noted Troo said a similar

Edited August 29, 2022 by lemming
Troo acknowledgement