Focused Feedback: Dominator Illusion Control

[Black Zot]

2 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Flash can stack with Blind whereas Gleam can't. (Though, if they're already blind, what is a huge flash of light accomplishing against them?)

 

Presumably it's the difference between "gah, that's bright!" and actual eye damage.

[Major_Decoy]

Yeah. Maestro also took almost exactly one Phantom Army duration.

 

It's very different from playing mind. Whereas on my mind/savage, I feel like I have control of the situation; Everything is asleep or cowering, I have picked my target, I defeat it, I move on.

 

Illusion is chaos. It's like grabbing a pick-up group for one minute.

[Mezmera]

30 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Presumably it's the difference between "gah, that's bright!" and actual eye damage.

[ExeErdna]

After trying Illusion it isn't as powerful as Mind or Symph. Mind in Dom is wild since that's the only time you really want to take Telekinesis it's somewhat disruptive in groups yet solo you can push a mob into a corner and they can't do anything. Plus with the AOE sleep you can really use the "Dom" to its fullest. Symph has better AOE where you don't really even need to get that close to be effective and the Pet's concept is still one of the best even if it isn't as aggressive as it once was.  SO, when it comes to Illusion you're based in burst two of your pets need to be up at all times or you will see how much trouble you'll get into. "It's strong but..." that's how I see Illusion on Dom. If Gleam did some damage then it might be higher to me. 

[laudwic]

13 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

 

Illusion is chaos. It's like grabbing a pick-up group for one minute.

 

Part of my thinks that a better title for the 'Phantom Army' Power would be 'Pickup Group'  you don't know what they are going to do, can't count on them to make good use of their powers, may aggro other mobs, and hope they can get the job done before they disappear.

[Ravenwulfe]

14 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

After trying Illusion it isn't as powerful as Mind or Symph. Mind in Dom is wild since that's the only time you really want to take Telekinesis it's somewhat disruptive in groups yet solo you can push a mob into a corner and they can't do anything. Plus with the AOE sleep you can really use the "Dom" to its fullest. Symph has better AOE where you don't really even need to get that close to be effective and the Pet's concept is still one of the best even if it isn't as aggressive as it once was.  SO, when it comes to Illusion you're based in burst two of your pets need to be up at all times or you will see how much trouble you'll get into. "It's strong but..." that's how I see Illusion on Dom. If Gleam did some damage then it might be higher to me. 

I see Gleam as a targeted AoE heart of darkness; aka a power to put a lot of procs in for damage.

[TheKay]

Any chance at all we have ANY control set with a spammable ST Stun instead of hold?

 

I think blind could be it, you get a flash in your face, you get stunned and disoriented instead of held, and it'd make illu the first set to synergize greatly with /energy on doms.

[Marshal_General]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:52 AM, Dispari said:

Phantom Assault maybe?

That sounds like a good name for a new power set.

[Marshal_General]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:37 PM, Black Zot said:

 

Presumably it's the difference between "gah, that's bright!" and actual eye damage.

You talking about the mobs or the other players on the team?

[...]

Brief test drive last night. 

 

Power set feels fantastic. Will be my new main. Thank you. 

 

Brief thoughts:

- would be nice if Spooky dominated, at least on first placement (similar to darkness control AoE hold). If that's not possible, I think keeping the controller level -tohit is a fair tradeoff. 

- Love the Spectral Wall animation. Fits perfectly with Spooky.

- would not change Superior Invisibility at all. Keeping in the primary is unique among dominators and very helpful for theme (in my case) and hitting defense soft caps (as is always difficult on dominators)

- Gleam is great. A nice tradeoff for PA not taunting

- Please do not change the name of PA

 

More detailed thoughts on Spectal Wall: this power is not going to see much use. It is now competing against the T1 and T2 of both the primary and the secondary (at least during character creation).

 

That said, the problem isn't unique to Spectral Wall, but rather to all dominator T1 immobilizes. Basically: they aren't competitive with other options. 

 

My solution would be to make Spectral Wall (and other Dom and troller T1 immobs) very fast casting, but generally do their damage as a DoT. I would aim for DPA on par with T1 attacks from the secondary. The tradeoff for the player then becomes T1 primary vs T1 secondary (immob with DoT vs instant damage). Which is an interesting choice. 

 

Of course, many builds will probably skip both T1 in primary and secondary henceforth. Because dpa rules all. 

 

Another option might be to make T1 primary immobs interact with domination (shave a second off the recharge time? Build the bar faster?). But that's a much more extensive change and I'm much less certain about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[laudwic]

After some additional testing:

 

1. Blind - It is a port of the controller version, fine power, the occasional spill over sleep is nice but happens very rarely as enemies are generally spread out to avoid AoEs

 

2. Spectral Wall - Nice work on the graphics but I expect this power will be greatly underused.  The -ToHit is nice, but if the target is held with Bind or is attacking it's comrades with Deceive they are not attacking you at all.  I have a bias against immobilize powers, especially for dominators that go into melee, because I feel the powers just give so much less utility compared to hold, stuns or confuses.  Confuse an enemy that is alone, they just stand there.   The power is fine, but it will be underused and skipped.  Maybe up the damage?  The main redeeming feature is the graphics.

 

3.  Deceive  - It is a port of the controller version, fine power.  

 

4.  Spectral Terror - It has always been an underrated power.  Having it at a lower level should get folks to realize how good it has always been.  Another port over power.

 

5.  Superior Invisibility - It is a port of the controller version, fine power.  Great mule for a LoTG Recharge bonus.  

 

6.  Gleam - Nice work on graphics.  I feel like it should do more damage out of the box as I am comparing it to the Symphony Stun Cone that does far more damage.  I have not tried just shoving a ton of damage Procs into it.  The only thing that kills me with that is this is a dominator, perma dom is so important in this class anything that takes away from a recharge bonus is not a good thing.  I would rather see the power do moderate damage out of the box (currently seems to do minor and compared to Symphony's Stun Cone Superior DoT) and be able to put a stun set into it to get the recharge.  If anyone has filled this with Procs, how did that go?

 

7.  Phantom Army - You have to slot this for damage slots will increase the damage but the heal back does not scale with it (same as controller version).   In my mind, the controller version is control through the taunt on the three copies and the damage is a bonus (the damage seems to be the same between the two powers).  The Dominator version replaces the taunt with sleep, knockdown, and other 'secondary' effects of powers.  Knockdown is great against thing susceptible to knockdown, energy drain is not helpful unless you build a dedicated sapper.  When you put Phantom Army on a boss or EB, it can certainly help overwhelm them.  You are going to get attacked, but they are certainly helpful.  When you drop them in a large spawn, they are less helpful as their attention is not concentrated and a good percentage of their damage heals.  So, against a single target I would say it is slightly better than the controller version, against large groups of minions and lts, give me the controller version every day.  Looking at my 50 ill/TA Controller and my test character, the damage seems to be at the same baseline (I am not sure and I don't have access to the game)  I would prefer the controller version of the power, but, if that is not where you are going, this power should have a damage bump compared to the Controller version.  The design idea seems to be that dominators are control and do damage while controllers are control and mitigation.  With that in mind, Phantom Army for Dominators has some control, (their control is flashier but if all attacks of a spawn are going to immune targets due to taunt, that control is more effective) but controller's control in the power is more effective.  Dominators should have a higher damage baseline.  I could be wrong, but that does not seem to be the case. 

 

**EDIT: Checking City of Data, the Controller version does more damage.  It should be the other way around.  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html  For Example: Controller Phantom Army with Ice Sword 73.4055 (-56.7224) 27.2 sec Mage 4 taunt Dominator Ice Sword 55.6102 (-42.97) with (-20 Jumpheight, RechargeTime Strength 6s, -20% Run/fly/jump speed 6s) and 11.92 second Sleep Mag 3.  - Think about that further, the base damage is also what is being effected by damage enhancements, so higher base damage = more bang for your inf on enhancements.  I'll take a 27 sec Mag 4 taunt over a 12 sec (at best) Mag 2 sleep any day.  The movement speed changes for 6 seconds are negligible.  The same holds true for the other decoy powers.*** 

 

8.  Flash - Another port.  Fine.  This has never been a favorite of mine, and feels a little lack luster and reparative with Gleam.  I prefer holds, but I also prefer ranged AoEs.  In this way Gleam wins out.  With a Dominator, PBAoEs are more fitting of the playstyle than Controllers, but I see this power relegated to more of a 'bleep, I'm surrounded' power.  Maybe to stack blind before domination is up.  

 

9.  Phants - Port over of the Controller version with the same, shoot, shoot, charge in for no good reason AI.  This has been listed as a bug since the days of live.  I posted before some reasons to keep it the same AI but just give it some kind of Melee power.  I wouldn't mind that as my Dominators generally play range then charge in.

 

Thanks for all your hard work, hope this helps.

Edited October 12, 2022 by laudwic
Changed an 'a' to an 'e' Than to then - I looked at City of Data

[Black Zot]

3 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

You talking about the mobs or the other players on the team?

 

Yes.

[Frosticus]

Ok I've now put in a good number of hrs on an ill/sav/ice (will be making this for sure). Last night I was just working the wall in Cim because those are lvl 54s and pretty nasty melee mobs.

Dominator Illusion has no issues taking down those spawns in or out of domination and I was pretty safe in melee range although /sav is unparalleled at getting your around the battle field, so it's not like I just sit there facetanking.

 

My previous feedback remains consistent, but I want to update my thoughts on 2 powers

 

Phantasm:

total junk on a melee dom, makes fire imps look sturdy. I will take him on a pure ranged ill/fire though because I pull all the agro at range while he hangs out with PA in "relative" safety. Just fix the AI so it hangs at range then it will be useful for melee doms and ranged doms (that don't stand beside it).

What is the purpose of him casting "decoy" if it does nothing of the sort? Maybe dom Phantasm should do something different?

 

PA:

I get why doms won't get the troller version. I've abused the hell out of that power on my ill/cold. Right now this power is like if seeker drones had a baby with fire imps. They absorb the alpha and then die a short time later (60 sec duration).

My suggestion is to give their punch power(s) a very short duration taunt. Just enough for an enemy to occasionally get fooled and direct a single attack at them.

 

This set is good, maybe even great. But as far as being an "illusionist" it pales in comparison to the troller version. Trollers make such strong illusions that they can convince  everything in the game they are real (too strong). Doms can't even fool skuls with their illusions (too weak)... there has to be a middle ground no?

 

Bonus: spec terror needs to dominate. All control powers should dominate, this is no different.

 

[laudwic]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

 

 

PA:

I get why doms won't get the troller version. I've abused the hell out of that power on my ill/cold. Right now this power is like if seeker drones had a baby with fire imps. They absorb the alpha and then die a short time later (60 sec duration).

My suggestion is to give their punch power(s) a very short duration taunt. Just enough for an enemy to occasionally get fooled and direct a single attack at them.

.

 

 

No taunt on the ranged attacks but maybe a lower magnitude (as compared to controller) taunt on the melee attacks? 

[laudwic]

One other idea, and this is for the future as I do not want to delay the set but really thinking about how Flash and Gleam are thematically so close and please excuse my programing ignorance.  

 

Would it be possible with Gleam to keep the power mechanically the same (damage should still be higher) but instead of the stun animation (still the same stun power and same basic effect) on the enemies have them do random dance emotes that are already in the game instead of the stun emotes?  Add in a disco ball during the duration.  Instead of another flash, you are, essentially doing (copywrited name) Irresistible Dance.  Instead of Gleam call it Dance, Disco, or Rave.

 

Just an idea, thanks for all you do. 

 

 

[Frosticus]

I want to expand on PA because I think the devs are throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this power.

 

Troller PA is broken because each attack has a ~25 second taunt. They spam attacks so even lvl 54s are indefinitely taunted by 1 PA, let alone 3.

 

A much shorter duration taunt (2-3 seconds) attached to only a single power would mean that weaker enemies are bamboozled a noticeable amount. More powerful enemies would quickly shrug off the "illusion" of the PA being real and quickly focus on the source (you). Some special mobs even have taunt resistance, which would further allow them to quickly dispel the illusion and seek you out. In some cases it would expire so quickly that you may regain aggro before the next attack vs powerful foes.

 

Short duration limited taunt + the new control powers they posses would make them fit the purpose they were likely always intended to serve.

[Zeraphia]

So earlier I made a post that stated this set was so good it could receive a possible nerf. I didn't really state the specifics on why it would or the highlights of the set. I suppose in comparison to other things in the game (for other archetypes), Illusion Control is fine. I will however point out some points on why this would probably be the best set on Doms:

Gleam is literally a 1:1 with Flashfire which is one of the strongest AoE controls in the game on reasonable cooldowns. It has a faster cast time (less vulnerable than FF), and has the same Radius/target potential. Stuns completely lock down mob groups without the chance for them to give counter-play. In comparison to Mind Control, the closest tool it has is Terrify. Terrify is ok, but works almost the same as Sleep, only difference when you hit the enemies with an attack, and the enemies hit you back, they can go back into fear.  With Gleam, they simply just become statues that move slowly. Gleam is just really good.

 

** This next point is more important than people realize/give credit for. The ability to single target confuse enemies. Mind had the best version of that, until Illusion came along and decided to get a 1:1 copy of that power but for Dominators. People really underestimate how impactful Confuse on higher level targets really is in gameplay. It's crucial for specific high level incarnate content, if the duration to cast time is good enough, you can chain-confuse AV's. This fact alone, given how I know that Mind Dominators can indeed perma-confuse +4 AV's when properly built, means Illusion Dominators can do the same thing, but with PA doing a lot more damage than any tool Mind has to offer. It makes it the best solo AV dominator set.

 

PA and Phantasm are just ahead of every other control set's pets by far. This has been shown with pylon tests many times, once the enemies are focused, they just shred high priority targets, but even in groups these pets still do tons of damage. Way more than what other sets honestly get from their pets, and they cannot die except for the Phantasm. Plant still does a bit better because of Seeds in the AoE department, but it falls short on single target, where Illusion greatly out-shines Plant in that department. 

 

In short, it's really strong where Mind was strong (single targets), and it's very good at AoE where other sets out-shined Mind. It kind of takes what made Mind great, and gets better AoE and damage tools.

[...]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

So earlier I made a post that stated this set was so good it could receive a possible nerf. I didn't really state the specifics on why it would or the highlights of the set. I suppose in comparison to other things in the game (for other archetypes), Illusion Control is fine. I will however point out some points on why this would probably be the best set on Doms:

Gleam is literally a 1:1 with Flashfire which is one of the strongest AoE controls in the game on reasonable cooldowns. It has a faster cast time (less vulnerable than FF), and has the same Radius/target potential. Stuns completely lock down mob groups without the chance for them to give counter-play. In comparison to Mind Control, the closest tool it has is Terrify. Terrify is ok, but works almost the same as Sleep, only difference when you hit the enemies with an attack, and the enemies hit you back, they can go back into fear.  With Gleam, they simply just become statues that move slowly. Gleam is just really good.

 

** This next point is more important than people realize/give credit for. The ability to single target confuse enemies. Mind had the best version of that, until Illusion came along and decided to get a 1:1 copy of that power but for Dominators. People really underestimate how impactful Confuse on higher level targets really is in gameplay. It's crucial for specific high level incarnate content, if the duration to cast time is good enough, you can chain-confuse AV's. This fact alone, given how I know that Mind Dominators can indeed perma-confuse +4 AV's when properly built, means Illusion Dominators can do the same thing, but with PA doing a lot more damage than any tool Mind has to offer. It makes it the best solo AV dominator set.

 

PA and Phantasm are just ahead of every other control set's pets by far. This has been shown with pylon tests many times, once the enemies are focused, they just shred high priority targets, but even in groups these pets still do tons of damage. Way more than what other sets honestly get from their pets, and they cannot die except for the Phantasm. Plant still does a bit better because of Seeds in the AoE department, but it falls short on single target, where Illusion greatly out-shines Plant in that department. 

 

In short, it's really strong where Mind was strong (single targets), and it's very good at AoE where other sets out-shined Mind. It kind of takes what made Mind great, and gets better AoE and damage tools.

 

Yes. Illusion is a good set. 

 

However, you seem to have forgotten about Darkness control. It can also perma confuse AVs from a distance, has a 40 second recharge fear (Cone not pseudopet), has a 90 second recharge stun (PBAoE not ranged), a 4 minute recharge hold (that is actually useful) and bonus pets on a 60 second timer.

[Zeraphia]

Just now, ... said:

 

Yes. Illusion is a good set. 

 

However, you seem to have forgotten about Darkness control. It can also perma confuse AVs from a distance, has a 40 second recharge fear (Cone not pseudopet), has a 90 second recharge stun (PBAoE not ranged), a 4 minute recharge hold (that is actually useful) and bonus pets on a 60 second timer.

Fear is a bit mediocre, I took it on Mind Dom so I'm familiar with the power, and I'd have to say the Stun is a much better lockdown power. 

TAoE is better than PBAoE in most circumstances. The fact you don't have to get into melee/the thick of a mob to use that power is a huge bonus in itself.

 

The Hold is decent I grant you, but it is still a 4 minute cooldown baseline power. But the Hold alone at least to me, isn't going to warrant the much higher damage potential that PA can output, especially in a single target scenario.

 

Those pets do less damage than PA, yes PA has a longer recharge timer, you can still perma them with IOing. PA also cannot die. Those pets you mentioned, from what I have experienced in x8 or +2+ die incredibly easily. PA just doesn't die. It's incomparable. Illusion has simply the best pets of any control set. 

[Dispari]

Most sets have what I (informally) call a bread and butter mez power. It tends to be a short recharging AoE mez (stun, fear, or confuse), usually available by level 12, that you can probably drop on every group. For Dark it's Fearsome Stare, for Earth it's Stalagmites, for Fire it's Flashfire, for Plant it's Seeds of Confusion, and so on. Illusion doesn't really have one, because it has other stuff going on. But with the changes for Doms, it does now have one in Gleam.

That is to say, I don't think it existing is bad necessarily or makes the set too powerful. For Doms, Illusion loses all of its ability to taunt and keep people from being attacked. In the absence of that, there isn't as much keeping enemies from killing the party (or you). You do have an AoE hold, but basically every set has that ON TOP of the bread and butter mez power. So, I think if you're going to take the taunt and party +DEF away from Dominators, it makes sense for a power like Gleam to exist.

Performance-wise, at least for me, the set hasn't seemed to be unusually good or anything. But more testing should be done of course.

[Frosticus]

Re: AV's

being a little bit better, when the AT is very mediocre, isn't particularly concerning.

Confusing AV's is an inefficient gimmick. It might be the best Dom's can do, but a real AV killer will already be moving on to the next target by the time you get it confused.

 

I think many dom's will find that attaining perma PA is a whole different kettle of fish than attaining perma dom. It will be very difficult to hit those levels of recharge AND still have solid defenses considering Dom PA doesn't tank for you.

 

Dark, Plant, Mind, Elec, Symphony, and Earth are all control powerhouses in their own way. I don't see illusion standing above them.

Also remember that the only way to increase PA's output is through debuffs. My ill/cold can stack 80-130% -res so the damage some controllers extract from PA might not coincide with what doms experience when using pylons as an example.

 

[Major_Decoy]

I will, at this time, echo the sentiment that I wish I could make the Phantasm look like me the way the Decoys do. Actually, I go a little further, I want the Spectral Terror to look like me too.

 

Edit: The Phantasm moves really slowly?

Edited October 12, 2022 by Major_Decoy

[wackodraco]

Can Spectral Wall be Tier 1 and Blind Tier 2 for consistency with other Control sets, please?
 

This should never matter mechanically because no archetype chooses from the Control Pool as a Secondary. Page 5 opens Tier 2 powers at 1 from secondaries anyway, thus reordering is benign.

[flakoff]

I think pa not taunting on doms is fine, you have a whole secondary that is just pure damage. 

You have an aoe hold and the new stun.

Surely with huge recharge you can handle +4×8 mobs.

Some powers aren't affected by domination in other sets also like the aoe hold in earth, so don't see why spectral terror needs to be.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Spectral Terror without Dom

Like eating a salad without dressing. Please let Dom copy over, even if it's just a +1 Mag bump on the two fear powers.

This power is good, but the flaw is in painting a target on your face if playing with bosses (teams and advanced solo). You're already rolling bones on misses, why this too?

 

Gleam Procing

For @laudwic, in my opinion it recharges too slow to be an effective tool anymore. Better off slotting it for intended use (see below) and relying on your secondary set for damage. Especially since it can make use of an Epic set. Yay 10% Recharge.

 

PA doesn't Taunt

Not an issue so far.

Mag 6 Stunlocking every spawn is pretty neat. Controllers can't do this, so the Taunt actually matters for them. Not as much for a Dom from what I've seen. 

 

Phantasm is like a Kleenex

Soft, strong, and disposable. This kind of sucks since we can't buff it, but I'm thinking it'll have more utility in teams with taunters and buffers. However, it's definitely a let down for solo play, I'm constantly having to resummon a fresh one.

At least it mules Call to Arms 4pc.

Might be a skip depending on secondary sets.