Focused Feedback: Irradiated Ground

[kelika2]

Man it is hard to comment on this other than its just a gigantic kick in the pants damage wise, 5 targets is crap.  But even raw damage it was designed to have two patches.  Blazing aura is 18.whatever per tick meanwhile IR is 9.whatever per tick

 

There are too many PBAoE damage enhancements, theres 4 readily available

And adding on -def and acc-def procs thats easily all 6 slots to procs.

 

Removing the ability to enhance the -def which is a viable thing to do still leaves 4 from PBAoE sets alone

But removing all damage auras ability to slot PBAoE sets might also cause issues

And flat out coding IRs ability to not proc procs might also be too far.  But if you do go route3 can you at the very least allow Radial procs to stay?

 

Might also be time to introduce a new mechanic on only having 1 damage proc enhancement per power

---

Or maybe needing X amount of enhancements of the same set allowing activation of said proc to proc.  say you need 3 whatever Obliterations to allow a proc to proc.

I am just now remembering non-damaging procs that I need like Miracle, KB2KD and so on damnit.

Edited October 7, 2022 by kelika2
---

[Dracomicon]

As a casual player, I did some testing with my Rad / Bio brute (build at the end) and these are my results:

 

Results:

On LIVE (all at +3/x8 no Lore):

- Ran the Briggs #133 S/L Farm and completed the first mission in 6min

- Defeated a Pylon in 4 min 7sec

- Ran the first two missions of Ouro Tsoo Coup with no problems at lvl 24

 

On BETA (all at +3/x8 no Lore):

- Ran the Briggs #133 S/L Farm and completed the first mission in 7min 25sec an increase of 24% in time

- Defeated a Pylon in 6 min 33sec an increase of 59% in time

- Ran the first two missions of Ouro Tsoo Coup at lvl 24 and finished almost twice as long on live due to the Sorcerers heals overwhelming my damage potential in the large mobs, even picking them off first. On Live there was no need to focus on them. I roughly estimate this as an increase of 100% in time to complete.

 

Opinion:

The changes to Irradiated Ground are needed, however the rest of the melee set feels lackluster without it. I used Irradiated Ground for damage and defense with the knockdown proc and damage procs, and the feel is that now the power set has lost maybe more than needed. I did not realize just how much I was leaning on one power from the set to compensate for the rest of the set. 

 

I would suggest a boost to the damage that happens with contamination, and an increase in the chance to contaminate. This would keep the flavor of the set but give it a slight boost that does not rely on Irradiated Ground.

 

Build

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[flakoff]

8 hours ago, Skoochy said:

You have to understand this nerf is targeted at AE farming, in specific, rad/FA brute farmers. They don't care how it affects anyone else because most rad/FA toons are AE farmers.

It's a free game where people can play how they like, no need to nerf farming, or powers that will affect an entire build someone loves.

All that will happen is people will play more on other servers and get irritated that their builds are nerfed.

Also imagine when they nerf procs,  soo many builds nerfed again. 

I think the Devs have done a great job running this but now seem to be getting like the Devs from live.

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by flakoff

[Parabola]

Copied over my Rad/Rad tank and played a couple of missions. I don't have hard numbers but agree with many of the things said above. IG currently plays a huge role in smoothing out what is a slightly clunky set and although it it clearly not working as intended (and a set shouldn't be balanced around a bug) that is where we are. So, if IG is to be adjusted could we please have a look at what could be done elsewhere in the set to compensate?

 

IG in its current form obviously supplies a lot of aoe damage but it also supplements the underwhelming single target of the set as a whole, in large part through the application of -res procs. In aoe terms I think the set can more or less live without the overperforming IG if it can apply contaminated reliably enough (I like the idea of boosting the ability of the IG to apply contaminated), but it doesn't feel good enough at single target. Shaving animation times could help, it is a fairly ponderous set overall. Another thought is that I've always been somewhat disappointed that contaminated does nothing for you if you are fighting a single foe. It feels like contaminated should make an enemy more vulnerable, perhaps by applying a -res effect or by removing the restriction that the primary target can't be affected by the splash damage.

[Sovera]

IR carries Rad Melee like Burn carries/carried Fire Armor. But where Fire Armor is having a pass Rad Melee is just being straight up nerfed.

 

Imagine Fire Armor having Burn fixed but not being tweaked like it is now.

 

 

I would suggest not touching IR until ready to give Rad Melee a do over. I imagine the set can be salvaged with animation tweaks or perhaps altering the Contaminated mechanic.

[Marbing]

IR unquestionably needs a look. But, I think it is a fair ask to say hold off until all of radiation melee can get a look. Much like what happened with Fiery Aura. 

[Dracomicon]

Another point of testing, I copied my build onto a Spine/Bio brute (build below):

 

Results:

On BETA (all at +3/x8 no Lore):

- Ran the Briggs #133 S/L Farm and completed the first mission in 6min 18sec a 18% speedup

- Defeated a Pylon in 6 min 12sec a 6% speedup

- Ran the first two missions of Ouro Tsoo Coup at lvl 24 and finished about 10% faster than my other build on Beta. The main increase in speed was due to the mobility I enjoyed by not having to keep the mobs in the patch and being able to move around to place my cone attack. 

 

Opinion:

As it currently stands, the Spines primary is slightly better overall than Radiation Melee. You would be hard pressed to argue that Spines is a top tier primary for Brutes. So this IG adjustment knocked Radiation Melee from top tier to near the bottom being worse than Spines for a casual player. 

 

I would still argue that Radiation Melee needs a bit of something to make it worth playing. Maybe an increase in the -Def it applies as I on occasion noticed that I was able to hit the mobs better with Radiation than with Spines but most of the time it was not noticeable.

 

Build

 

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[Sanguinesun]

7 hours ago, Dracomicon said:

Another point of testing, I copied my build onto a Spine/Bio brute (build below):

 

Results:

On BETA (all at +3/x8 no Lore):

- Ran the Briggs #133 S/L Farm and completed the first mission in 6min 18sec a 18% speedup

- Defeated a Pylon in 6 min 12sec a 6% speedup

- Ran the first two missions of Ouro Tsoo Coup at lvl 24 and finished about 10% faster than my other build on Beta. The main increase in speed was due to the mobility I enjoyed by not having to keep the mobs in the patch and being able to move around to place my cone attack. 

 

Opinion:

As it currently stands, the Spines primary is slightly better overall than Radiation Melee. You would be hard pressed to argue that Spines is a top tier primary for Brutes. So this IG adjustment knocked Radiation Melee from top tier to near the bottom being worse than Spines for a casual player. 

 

I would still argue that Radiation Melee needs a bit of something to make it worth playing. Maybe an increase in the -Def it applies as I on occasion noticed that I was able to hit the mobs better with Radiation than with Spines but most of the time it was not noticeable.

 

Build

 

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Looking over that build, its extremely low in damage output compared to most of the smashing/lethal farming builds for spines and compared to rad/ ones its also arguably much much lower due to your choices of powers/slots/ios.   You'd have to present a rad/bio and a spine/bio with testing to actually more evenly show the data to compare of course.

 

Keep in mind rad's also about its containment and -def people underestimate how that improves the set's effectivity. Spines is about -spd/-recharge which makes it in effect more defending set vs rad's more offensive secondary traits.  If then a set intended to have more offensive secondary traits were to be made less effective overall with its set to due changes, then it does indeed of course make it much less compelling for people to consider using that set.

[DarknessEternal]

11 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

Looking over that build, its extremely low in damage output compared to most of the smashing/lethal farming builds for spines and compared to rad/ ones its also arguably much much lower due to your choices of powers/slots/ios.   You'd have to present a rad/bio and a spine/bio with testing to actually more evenly show the data to compare of course.

 

 

Except that he showed spines was more dps.  So his low damage Spines build was more damaging than his optimized Rad build.

[Sanguinesun]

38 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Except that he showed spines was more dps.  So his low damage Spines build was more damaging than his optimized Rad build.

 

Because neither build is optimal per his choices and his thinking with the sets.   

For his testing methodology, he took all the same powers for bio and he took the same pools/epics for both builds and slotted/IO choiced them the same. 

 

Then when going with the rad/ and spines/, he took the same power equivalencies (skipping power 1 and power 3  from each set.)

 

However he choose, either due to personal preference or due to the powers being different types, different IO sets combinations.

 

This is where the false equivalency comes in.   If you actually looked at his builds, you'd see he biased the spines one with more higher damage IO's in some power slots but choose orange for the other one and there are other similar issues because, both sets have different functioning powers.

 

And there were other differences too.

 

But most farmers know, you don't build either set the exact same way for effectively farming.  If you attempt to build the same(as he did) that's why his results skew as they do.

 

So if he want's to make the claim that if he takes all the same tier'd powers, slots the same, then put IO's as close to comparison(with of course his using spines as the default to build from(another skewing bias), then of course he's going to get results showing more from spines due to the difference of the set. But its arguably not accurately testing to the differences/strengths of the sets.

 

However, if he built from the stand point of optimizing for the rad set and not the spines one as best with his bio armor choice, then there may be compelling evidence to say that the rad one would be likely be higher.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[flakoff]

Regardless of builds there are many other sets that perform better than radiation and obviously different sets will be left alone.

Look at what is really happening,  the two most popular sets for farming having their main aoe damage nerfed. 

Which also affects those that enjoy the sets not farming. 

 

 

 

[Sovera]

12 minutes ago, flakoff said:

Regardless of builds there are many other sets that perform better than radiation and obviously different sets will be left alone.

Look at what is really happening,  the two most popular sets for farming having their main aoe damage nerfed. 

Which also affects those that enjoy the sets not farming.

 

Fire Armor is not particularly harmed in AoE. But post some numbers in the FA feedback thread of your tests so that we can compare.

[Dracomicon]

16 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

Looking over that build, its extremely low in damage output compared to most of the smashing/lethal farming builds for spines and compared to rad/ ones its also arguably much much lower due to your choices of powers/slots/ios.   You'd have to present a rad/bio and a spine/bio with testing to actually more evenly show the data to compare of course.

 

Keep in mind rad's also about its containment and -def people underestimate how that improves the set's effectivity. Spines is about -spd/-recharge which makes it in effect more defending set vs rad's more offensive secondary traits.  If then a set intended to have more offensive secondary traits were to be made less effective overall with its set to due changes, then it does indeed of course make it much less compelling for people to consider using that set.

 

I am more of a casual player, and since my main character for years was a tanker, I have a more defensive style of play. This character is not a farmer, but more of a solo and team player. I will often sacrifice a bit of offensive potential to make a more defensive rounded character. With the huge offensive potential of IG, I slotted for more defense on purpose. I also added more -res procs to assist in AV and EB targets when on a team. Ultimately it works for me, and I was just testing to see how the new changes will affect one of my characters. I am hoping that adding more data to how the changes effect players would be helpful.

 

4 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

Because neither build is optimal per his choices and his thinking with the sets.   

For his testing methodology, he took all the same powers for bio and he took the same pools/epics for both builds and slotted/IO choiced them the same. 

 

.

.

.

 

However, if he built from the stand point of optimizing for the rad set and not the spines one as best with his bio armor choice, then there may be compelling evidence to say that the rad one would be likely be higher.

 

I built the Rad / Bio for my casual playstyle, definitely going more defensively. I built the Spines / Bio trying to keep things the same with changes only for IOs that no longer work. Obviously you can't do an apples to apples comparison, but I was just wanting to look at a similar set with similar AoE potential and how it compared to Rad. after the changes in Beta. To get a better feel for how I would slot a Spines / Bio, I would level it up normally but that would take months with my available time and playstyle, so I made some quick choices.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Fire Armor is not particularly harmed in AoE. But post some numbers in the FA feedback thread of your tests so that we can compare.

His post wasnt actually about numbers, but it was about the incredible coincidence of the 2 sets that farming uses having "bugs". and the last farming nerf was because of "bugs"

It is looking like the best way to find bugs is to look at what makes farming work. I realize this isnt what they want to see here, we are supposed to not notice. We should probably discuss this elsewhere, this isnt the kind of feedback they want here.

[Astralock]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

His post wasnt actually about numbers, but it was about the incredible coincidence of the 2 sets that farming uses having "bugs". and the last farming nerf was because of "bugs"

It is looking like the best way to find bugs is to look at what makes farming work. I realize this isnt what they want to see here, we are supposed to not notice. We should probably discuss this elsewhere, this isnt the kind of feedback they want here.

 

Here's a question for you.  I know the answer, and I suspect you do as well if you're honest with yourself.

 

Is it really a coincidence that the two most popular power sets used for AE farming just so happen to be the ones with AoE damage powers that were brokenly overpowered?  Or are they the most popular power sets used for AE farming because they both happen to have brokenly overpowered AoE damage powers?

[Skoochy]

2 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

Here's a question for you.  I know the answer, and I suspect you do as well if you're honest with yourself.

 

Is it really a coincidence that the two most popular power sets used for AE farming just so happen to be the ones with AoE damage powers that were brokenly overpowered?  Or are they the most popular power sets used for AE farming because they both happen to have brokenly overpowered AoE damage powers?

You people crack me up with your "bugs" and "brokenly overpowered" BS. Those powers do exactly what they were designed to do in those sets. People use them for farming because they are the most optimized for that task (AE fire farming), which is also why they are now being nerfed.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

Here's a question for you.  I know the answer, and I suspect you do as well if you're honest with yourself.

 

Is it really a coincidence that the two most popular power sets used for AE farming just so happen to be the ones with AoE damage powers that were brokenly overpowered?  Or are they the most popular power sets used for AE farming because they both happen to have brokenly overpowered AoE damage powers?

brokenly overpowered? no one would use them if not for fire centric or farming reasons. plainly, they suck at anything else. brokenly overpowered? really? has anyone seriously done any of hte devs new favorite hardmode content with them? are you trying to push the idea that fire armor is over powered? Has the current dev team abandoned so's totally? Because balancing around IO builds is very much more miss than hit.

 

The rad set as a whole is broken, yet there is zero interest in fixing it. The crusade against farming continues.

Edited October 10, 2022 by ivanhedgehog

[Sanguinesun]

9 hours ago, Dracomicon said:

 

I am more of a casual player, and since my main character for years was a tanker, I have a more defensive style of play. This character is not a farmer, but more of a solo and team player. I will often sacrifice a bit of offensive potential to make a more defensive rounded character. With the huge offensive potential of IG, I slotted for more defense on purpose. I also added more -res procs to assist in AV and EB targets when on a team. Ultimately it works for me, and I was just testing to see how the new changes will affect one of my characters. I am hoping that adding more data to how the changes effect players would be helpful.

 

 

I built the Rad / Bio for my casual playstyle, definitely going more defensively. I built the Spines / Bio trying to keep things the same with changes only for IOs that no longer work. Obviously you can't do an apples to apples comparison, but I was just wanting to look at a similar set with similar AoE potential and how it compared to Rad. after the changes in Beta. To get a better feel for how I would slot a Spines / Bio, I would level it up normally but that would take months with my available time and playstyle, so I made some quick choices.

 

 

My primary point was to say that the testing parameters used and playstyle biases skewed the results and that the assessment you made should be couched accordingly. It was not intended to be a criticism to your choice of playstyle if you took it as such. People should play as they wish to of course.

 

Which then is a good pivot to reply to this...

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

Here's a question for you.  I know the answer, and I suspect you do as well if you're honest with yourself.

 

Is it really a coincidence that the two most popular power sets used for AE farming just so happen to be the ones with AoE damage powers that were brokenly overpowered?  Or are they the most popular power sets used for AE farming because they both happen to have brokenly overpowered AoE damage powers?

Or is your anti farming sentiments and spin, yet again, having its torch waved about...

 

Also, have you burnished your torch over on the Axe melee changes yet? Im sure you'll unleash your acrimony upon it too since its become a better farming candidate than its previous iteration now. And also will you declare those changes as bugs, broken, and over powered?

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[InvaderStych]

On 10/5/2022 at 3:20 PM, Ratch_ said:

This power can now only proc once every 10 seconds

 

This is the only part of IG that was problematic; that it would previously check for chances to proc at twice the rate of every other dmg aura in the game. It was absolutely not WAI in its previous state and was deservedly fixed.  We went through this during Retail when Interface was first released and it proc'd on every tick of damage - all auras get a chance every 10s. IG was proc'ing every 5 seconds.  Broken.

 

Should some of the other powers in RM get reviewed after this change? Absolutely. Proc-Bomb'd IG carried the set.

 

 

On 10/5/2022 at 3:20 PM, Ratch_ said:

and hit up to 5 targets.

 

This is overkill.  It should have standard dmg aura stats in terms of size and target cap. Relative damage to other auras should be commensurate with existing standards. Auras that lack a debuff do slightly more damage, ones that do do slightly less.  Unless I am mistaken the standard number of targets affected should be 10.

 

[Ratch_]

49 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

This is the only part of IG that was problematic; that it would previously check for chances to proc at twice the rate of every other dmg aura in the game. It was absolutely not WAI in its previous state and was deservedly fixed.  We went through this during Retail when Interface was first released and it proc'd on every tick of damage - all auras get a chance every 10s. IG was proc'ing every 5 seconds.  Broken.

 

Should some of the other powers in RM get reviewed after this change? Absolutely. Proc-Bomb'd IG carried the set.

 

 

 

This is overkill.  It should have standard dmg aura stats in terms of size and target cap. Relative damage to other auras should be commensurate with existing standards. Auras that lack a debuff do slightly more damage, ones that do do slightly less.  Unless I am mistaken the standard number of targets affected should be 10.

 

This is exactly where I stand with it and my whole drive for making the thread 👍

[LQT]

10 hours ago, Astralock said:

Is it really a coincidence that the two most popular power sets used for AE farming just so happen to be the ones with AoE damage powers that were brokenly overpowered?  Or are they the most popular power sets used for AE farming because they both happen to have brokenly overpowered AoE damage powers?

 

Fire Armour is used for farming for 3 main reasons.

1. The set easily caps mob attack Type RES [Fire].

2. Fire attacks are the easiest Type to mitigate due to the secondary component being negligible compared to other Types [Stuns/Disorient/KB/-DEF/-Tohit/-Recharge/Slow].
 

3. It has both a damage aura, Blazing Aura, and an active damage power in the form of Burn.
 

Spoiler

First point means a build can budget for other things sooner since hitting 90% Fire RES is almost as easy as simply putting single level 50 RES IOs in Fire Shield, Temp Protection, and Plasma Shield [84.71%].

Second point relates to how Fire attacks only cause DoTs so even the complete lack of KB protection in the set can be ignored outside of regular content, again permitting a build to budget for other things.

Third point increases passive damage and active damage, or alternatively increases passive damage twice if Burn is put on autofire.

 

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, LQT said:

 

Fire Armour is used for farming for 3 main reasons.

1. The set easily caps mob attack Type RES [Fire].

2. Fire attacks are the easiest Type to mitigate due to the secondary component being negligible compared to other Types [Stuns/Disorient/KB/-DEF/-Tohit/-Recharge/Slow].
 

3. It has both a damage aura, Blazing Aura, and an active damage power in the form of Burn.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

First point means a build can budget for other things sooner since hitting 90% Fire RES is almost as easy as simply putting single level 50 RES IOs in Fire Shield, Temp Protection, and Plasma Shield [84.71%].

Second point relates to how Fire attacks only cause DoTs so even the complete lack of KB protection in the set can be ignored outside of regular content, again permitting a build to budget for other things.

Third point increases passive damage and active damage, or alternatively increases passive damage twice if Burn is put on autofire.

 

 

But doesn't change the point that outside of farming, Fire Aura . . . is just not that great.

[ivanhedgehog]

16 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

This is the only part of IG that was problematic; that it would previously check for chances to proc at twice the rate of every other dmg aura in the game. It was absolutely not WAI in its previous state and was deservedly fixed.  We went through this during Retail when Interface was first released and it proc'd on every tick of damage - all auras get a chance every 10s. IG was proc'ing every 5 seconds.  Broken.

 

Should some of the other powers in RM get reviewed after this change? Absolutely. Proc-Bomb'd IG carried the set.

 

 

 

This is overkill.  It should have standard dmg aura stats in terms of size and target cap. Relative damage to other auras should be commensurate with existing standards. Auras that lack a debuff do slightly more damage, ones that do do slightly less.  Unless I am mistaken the standard number of targets affected should be 10.

 

If you make it conform to the proc standard of other auras it should conform in other ways also. like size and # of targets

[ExeErdna]

I'm gonna put my foot into the door because I have 2 characters that I've done all sorts of content with that's affected by this whole patching wave. I got a double fire tanker and a rad/bio brute. Outside of the perfection of farm based AE's these wasn't the problem. Like Irradiated Ground is lucky to get both stacks because of how powerful everybody else can be. On paper it's "powerful" yet because it couldn't take ATO's it was a bit more balanced. Like IG is good when there's AV that won't run around. So I can debuff the crap out of them. Honestly Rad Melee is in a weak spot since it's a slow set for one, so IR takes a lot of DPS since it is the main AOE of the set. I know how the farmers can AFK with that setup. Yet it isn't how everybody plays. So Rad Melee itself needs to be looked over not just IG. Since IG is carrying the set doing what's it supposed to do debuffing and spreading contamination. While the set is simply slow and lacks power. For my style of play I dislike damage procs on anything that's consistently up. Yet it works for others, that's what I liked about how you can build tank melee. I can be being an aggro-holding support. While somebody can frankenslot as many procs as possible and kinda make it work.

[S1TT]

Yeah this change is gonna kill Rad Melee because the set relies so heavily on it