Coup de grace vs held/knocked down underlings, minions, and LTs

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Akisan said:

And how long would this interaction be?  What would the cooldown on it be?  My holds last for 30s, and have a 6-8s cooldown.  Ice Manipulation's hold is already melee, and my archery powers have a 130ft range, so I wouldn't lose *any* positioning doing this.  On top of that, with the exception of a few Lts (Crey tanks come to mind), it's almost always going to be faster for me to just use my regular attacks to defeat said Lts unless that interaction is only a second or so.

Obviously the specific values would have to be worked out.  Either way, it seems like you'd likely be an outlier, and not a typical case.  It'd be like assuming containment shouldn't be implemented because of what a fully IO'd-out controller can do...

[Wavicle]

It would need to be an additional tag added to specific Holds, not just every hold in the game. That tag would have a Short duration, it would NOT be up as long as the target was Held.

Frankly, I think you'd get more traction by simply suggesting Containment be strengthened. Controllers are the only AT that relies on holds that doesn't already have the ability to hit hard consistently.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Wavicle

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

You'd have to run up to an enemy, while they are on their butt, then initiate the interaction.  IF and when they stand back up, you lose that ability.  So, sure, go ahead and try to do it en masse, but I think you'll find that, while it delivers an instant kill, it's not an "I win" button.

 

Except the powers I mentioned  - and the IOs - can achieve continual knockdowns for a time period. So you're getting free shots on several enemies - which could otherwise take some time, thanks to resists, etc. to kill.

 

Besides... running up? There are numerous point-blank (well, melee range) holds. (Gravity well comes to mind, given how much I Warshade.)

 

Points for an interesting idea, but I just don't think it's one I'd get behind.

[Rudra]

55 minutes ago, biostem said:

I also explicitly never said that this would be a controller/dominator-only ability.

My response you are quoting mentions no Controllers or Dominators. It mentions Blasters because Blaster using Aim  + BU was your example. It mentions Stalkers because that is already the AT that is designed with a power to take down Lieutenants (typically with the use of BU prior to AS) (edit: similar in idea to the proposed coup de grace).

 

As for the character having to run up to the held or KD'd foe? I know a great many Controllers, Dominators, Blasters, and even Corruptors that play in melee range. So @Akisan's example would not be an outlier. It would be a relatively common example. And if the OP were to be implemented, would likely become even more common. Especially if they have AoE mezzes.

 

For the narrow window defense? I can knock mobs into the geometry and keep them falling in place with surprising consistency depending on the surrounding geometry. (It is not consistent, but it can be done surprisingly often and is a tactic I attempt to use against particularly troublesome EBs with appropriate terrain to use.) Rag doll physics likes to extend the KD duration even when I don't manage to clip the target into the geometry. All it takes is the mob 'landing wrong' so it has to disentangle itself from the rag doll physics. And holding a mob, even a group of mobs, gives you a very large "narrow window" of opportunity.

 

Then there is the question of the coup de grace timer for interaction. If short enough that most players would be willing to consider it for use over just doing more damage, then it takes away the need for doing damage at all or having a team. Just throw a hold slotted for time, forget the damage, and then just kill the enemy without need for any other attack. (Damage? Who needs damage to win?) If the timer for the coup de grace is not that short? Then it won't likely be used at all.

 

Then there is the question of mobs cannot self-rez if coup de graced. Which is so much better than anything even a Stalker can do in that situation. Assassinating the target does not stop it from being able to self-rez. Yet hitting the target with a hold, even a hold that does no damage, and then clicking the target kills that target with no chance of self-rez.

 

The whole you can be interrupted? What are the chances of that happening? Especially if the character has an AoE sleep or Hold to use to prevent that interruption. Just pause for a moment prior to clicking. And if your Hold is slotted for time, you can take almost as many moments as you want to make sure the game doesn't decide to arbitrarily decide you moved and interrupt you.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Rudra

[Akisan]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

Obviously the specific values would have to be worked out.  Either way, it seems like you'd likely be an outlier, and not a typical case.  It'd be like assuming containment shouldn't be implemented because of what a fully IO'd-out controller can do...

 

Fully IO'd controllers have earned that containment damage, especially if they *didn't* PL through the low levels to get to their pets. (I still remember trying to solo a controller to 14 in Issue 3.  0/10, do not recommend.)

 

19 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It would need to be an additional tag added to specific Holds, not just every hold in the game. That tag would have a Short duration, it would NOT be up as long as the target was Held.

Frankly, I think you'd get more traction by simply suggesting Containment be strengthened. Controllers are the only AT that relies on holds that doesn't already have the ability to hit hard reliably.

 

100% this, but I'd consider adding Sleeps to this set-up as well.  And yes, this would work much better as an option to buff Containment - other ATs get Holds with their damage (instead of damage with their Holds), and don't have to rely on having stuff Held to deal competitive damage.

[Wavicle]

Even then you'd have to successfully demonstrate that Controllers need to be buffed.



Good luck with that.

[MTeague]

Points for thinking outside the box, but I can't get behind this. And hell, my main is a Mind/Kin, who might very well benefit from something like this. 

If it were implemented, I absolutely think every enemy should get the same power to use against a Held player. 

[Player2]

I think a better option would be to make a specific powerset that focuses on this as a mechanic... and no, not for controllers and dominators.  Make it a low damage melee set that deals higher damage against foes that are held, immobilized, stunned, or knocked down.  You can add a knockdown effect to one attack and a disorient effect another attack... you can pick up an immobilizing attack in your ancillary pool for 3 chances to set up for your higher damage.  Teaming up with controllers and dominators would great.

[Wavicle]

Don’t stalkers basically already get that?

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, Player2 said:

I think a better option would be to make a specific powerset that focuses on this as a mechanic... and no, not for controllers and dominators.  Make it a low damage melee set that deals higher damage against foes that are held, immobilized, stunned, or knocked down.  You can add a knockdown effect to one attack and a disorient effect another attack... you can pick up an immobilizing attack in your ancillary pool for 3 chances to set up for your higher damage.  Teaming up with controllers and dominators would great.

 

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Don’t stalkers basically already get that?

Yes, they do. Stalkers do increased damage to mezzed targets. At least for holds.

[Arc-Mage]

This really sounds like a power that belongs in another game. Maybe Champions or SW:ToR.

[Wavicle]

43 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

Yes, they do. Stalkers do increased damage to mezzed targets. At least for holds.

here is the real answer. Play a stalker.

 

If a controller wants to increase team damage, they have options for that. Dominators and blasters already do plenty of damage.

 

Giving this to any other archetype would be ridiculously overpowered.

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Giving this to any other archetype would be ridiculously overpowered.

 

"Hello my name is Rad/SS tanker and I'm here for my buffs." 👋 

[DarionLeonidas]

Sounds like something that would make the game, yet again, too easy.

Besides, I like the drama of a felled-but-not-defeated minion getting back up as a "spoiler" that has to be dealt with.
If that possibility didn't exist, the whole bit with Merry and the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields couldn't have happened.

I'd always prefer the game err on the side of drama. 🙂

 

[kelika2]

So, Containment?

[srmalloy]

On 12/7/2022 at 2:15 PM, biostem said:

My suggestion is that, if you hold or knock down a lower-tier enemy, you should be able to run up to them and deliver a decisive killing blow, immediately defeating them.  Further, this should prevent any ability for them to self-rez. 

One of the things that is useful to think about when proposing new mechanics like this is to realize that giving it to player characters only is unbalancing, and think about it being done to you -- being part of, say, a +4x8 ITF, and having any of the NPCs being able to run up to your character, or any member of your team, once they were held or knocked down and one-shot them, disabling the use of any self-rez power or rez inspirations. I regularly see recruiting announcements for +4x8 ITFs where one of the restrictions is that team members aren't allowed to rez at the hospital; think about running a TF with that restriction, and the one team member with a rez power gets held and whacked, putting the entire rest of the team under threat of being taken out of the TF simply by having a hostile mob close enough to whack them if they get held.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

One of the things that is useful to think about when proposing new mechanics like this is to realize that giving it to player characters only is unbalancing, and think about it being done to you

Yeah... imagine if NPCs had some sort of special anti-mez effect... perhaps represented by purple triangles or such... oh wait!  NPCs can already do a multitude of things that player characters cannot.  There is absolutely no reason, nor is there any precedent, for NPCs gaining player abilities in a tit-for-tat manner...

[biostem]

11 hours ago, DarionLeonidas said:

I like the drama of a felled-but-not-defeated minion getting back up as a "spoiler" that has to be dealt with.

Here's the great thing about the proposed ability - you wouldn't have to use it if you didn't want to.

 

[biostem]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

So, Containment?

Does containment do what I suggested in the OP?