Can Archery get some love? There's literally nothing it does different than any other set, and everything it does someone else does better.

[Willdabeastalt1]

I'm referring specifically to the Archer offensive primary/secondary.  Not Trick Arrow or Tactical Arrow.

 

There is nothing it does that is unique.

Everything it does, some if not most of the other blaster primaries do better.

It has no secondary effects on most of its attacks.

The attacks recharge SO fast that it can't even have decent proc rates on the few procs it can slot, and they pay a BIG price in being much lower base damage-per-attack due to the fast recharge rate.

 

Yes, every build can contribute.  Some just contribute less.  At least some other sets can say they bring SOMETHING special and unique found nowhere else if they're otherwise "suboptimal."  Archery cannot say that, except maybe that Rain of Arrows has a slightly shorter cooldown ... but that is mitigated by the fact that as a Pseudo-pet patch power it can't even have decent procs.

 

I want to love Archery.  I've tried over and over again.  The struggle is real though, every time I run one I just feel like I'm playing with one hand tied behind my back, taking twice as many attacks to kill the same things, with nothing cool happening along the way.

 

[Astralock]

If you slot KD to KB enhancements, Archery actually does good damage.  Not great, but not bad either.  As for what Archery does well… its fast recharge is exactly what it does well.

As for procs, I personally wouldn’t worry about that. Procs are currently overpowered and bound to be nerfed at some point.

[Willdabeastalt1]

8 minutes ago, Astralock said:

If you slot KD to KB enhancements, Archery actually does good damage.  Not great, but not bad either.  As for what Archery does well… its fast recharge is exactly what it does well.

As for procs, I personally wouldn’t worry about that. Procs are currently overpowered and bound to be nerfed at some point.

Fast recharge on primary attacks isn't a relevant feature like it was in the first few issues, because every set can attain a non-stop attack chain thanks to Global Recharge buffs.

 

Edit: Also, the only knockdown power in Archery is Explosive Arrow.

 

All fast recharge means is that the individual attacks do less base damage, meaning your overall attack chain is lower damage since, again, if you can achieve a non-stop attack chain with any set, the effectiveness comes down to either the damage or the secondaries.

 

On top of that, several other sets have faster animations AND higher base damage in their primary attack chains, further contributing to the astronomical power gap.  Plus the secondaries.

All faster base recharge does is mean you have to do less damage and click more.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Willdabeastalt1

[Six-Six]

in a world where players are going around with laser guns, mutated rock-like skin, firing mind bullets or burst of radiation from their hands, what exactly are you expecting from pointy sticks and twine?

[Willdabeastalt1]

8 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

in a world where players are going around with laser guns, mutated rock-like skin, firing mind bullets or burst of radiation from their hands, what exactly are you expecting from pointy sticks and twine?

For it to do something different.  Poison tipped arrows (actually has a basis in history that can't be achieved with guns), some sort of debuff from having an arrow dangling out of you, heck, I don't know, I'm not a super creative guy, I just know that for all that archers are glorified in comics, super hero movies and other media, archery absolutely stinks as a playable set in this.  Broadsword, Katana, Mace, Axe and Staff are also outdated weapon types, but each of them have effective niches.  Archery ... not so much.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Willdabeastalt1

[Six-Six]

That's my point. It would be helpful if you started the ball rolling with a suggestion or two. Incidentally, Trick and Tactical arrows fit what you're looking for.

or maybe... just maybe... the charm of archery is its simplicity. I'm part of an all archer SG that does all archer runs, and none of us have had any major complaints. If a certain power set isn't working for you, maybe try another you'll be happier with.

[srmalloy]

50 minutes ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

Archery cannot say that, except maybe that Rain of Arrows has a slightly shorter cooldown ... but that is mitigated by the fact that as a Pseudo-pet patch power it can't even have decent procs.

And by the fact that, even when you're standing out at max range, invisible, the moment you begin your draw for Rain of Arrows, the mobs you're targeting aggro on you.

[Willdabeastalt1]

2 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

That's my point. It would be helpful if you started the ball rolling with a suggestion or two. Incidentally, Trick and Tactical arrows fit what you're looking for.

or maybe... just maybe... the charm of archery is its simplicity. I'm part of an all archer SG that does all archer runs, and none of us have had any major complaints. If a certain power set isn't working for you, maybe try another you'll be happier with.

I've played many, many sets.  I've got a couple dozen 50s.  As stated, I'm not referring to Trick Arrows or Tactical Arrow, those have unique and different effects.  They're unique and have their own features.

 

If the unique feature of Archery "is its simplicity," that it does nothing special and what it does it doesn't do particularly well, I guess that's a point you can make.  I love that you all love your characters in your all archery SG!  There may be the possibility of some confirmation bias if there are no major complaints.  I do have one.  Numbers wise, it's one of the worst damage sets, and it has nothing feature-wise to compensate for that.

[TheZag]

I dont play archery,  does it have bad damage per animation time along with the low damage per attack?  Firing off 4 faster attacks that average 80 damage is more than someone else doing 3 attacks averaging 100 damage in the same amount of time.  I dont know if thats the case here but damage per animation is more important than damage per attack for comparison purposes.

 

I think archery does have a 'thing' but its in the form of increased accuracy to its attacks and not completely unique.  Most (all?) weapon wielding sets have increased accuracy.  Now that players are generally capped for accuracy no matter what set they use,  the boost from the bow is no longer noticed and rarely needed.  If the set needs a buff this is where i see the opportunity, though.

 

The game runs its hit chance calculations and if you are above 95% or below 5%,  it locks you in at that value and any additional hit chance is 'wasted'.  Having an effect that triggers based on how much you were over 95% on your hit chance could be archery's 'thing'.  It could be 'vitals hit' and they bleed over time or any number of the different debuffs available - choose what fits best as the over accuracy proc.  This assumes archery needs a buff in the first place but thats my idea for what it could be.

 

[Willdabeastalt1]

14 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I dont play archery,  does it have bad damage per animation time along with the low damage per attack?  Firing off 4 faster attacks that average 80 damage is more than someone else doing 3 attacks averaging 100 damage in the same amount of time.  I dont know if thats the case here but damage per animation is more important than damage per attack for comparison purposes.

 

 

In short, yes, it has some bad damage per animation.

 

Aimed Shot (Tier 2) is 49.45 DPA at 50.  No secondaries.

Blazing Arrow is 88.37 DPA, assuming all fire damage ticks.  No secondaries aside from the damage ticks.

Snipe is snipe, they're all decent DPA, but Archery has no secondaries and is pure lethal.

Aside from Fast Shot (Tier 1), these are the only single target damage attacks aside from a piddling damage stun attack.

 

 

For some comparison from the Ice set:

 

Ice Blast (tier 2): 61.44 DPA. Slow secondaries.

Freeze Ray: 137.64 (assuming all ticks). Hold secondaries which can take 3-4 extra procs.

Bitter Ice Blast: 133.31 DPA.  Slow and -to hit secondaries for many procs.

 

For more of an apples-to-apples comparison from Fire Set which also has no secondaries:

 

Fire Blast (tier 2): 50.73 DPA, assuming all ticks.

Blaze: 170.49 DPA, assuming all ticks.

Snipe has bonus damage as secondary.

 

 

[Willdabeastalt1]

For all those who love their Archers, I'm not trying to knock your character.  I'm just asking for a little love for your character, a little extra something to give you more joy in your play!

 

When my Ice Blaster shows up, he's tossing wicked fast attacks, they're holding, they're slowing, they're proccing right and left, things get debuffed, knocked down, stopped in their tracks and die FAST.

 

When my Dark Blaster shows up, we got knock downs, to hit debuffs, holds, procs right and left, nukes, everything starts missing until it dies FAST.

 

When my Energy Rifle shows up, bosses and AVs just melt from the debuffs, still some decent procs, chaining damage, dots right and left, and with a bit of set up whole groups of longer lasting enemies get melted.

 

When my Archer shows up ... well, there are arrows.  And more arrows.  And oh wait now a slow flaming arrow. And things die eventually.

[aethereal]

At launch, I think much of Archery's draw was a non-crashing, long-distance T9.  That advantage has obviously been significantly degraded now that all T9s are non-crashing, and its shorter recharge is at least arguably a disadvantage in a context of 180% global recharge for all builds that really, you know, try.

[Willdabeastalt1]

8 minutes ago, aethereal said:

At launch, I think much of Archery's draw was a non-crashing, long-distance T9.  That advantage has obviously been significantly degraded now that all T9s are non-crashing, and its shorter recharge is at least arguably a disadvantage in a context of 180% global recharge for all builds that really, you know, try.

Great point!  I'd forgotten that its T9 didn't crash like the rest.  Which was great ... when it came out.  As you so rightly pointed out, the standout features from back then in issue 2 or 3 or whatever aren't relevant in the current game environment.

[biostem]

Give aimed shot or ranged shot a poison DoT.  Increase the cone range on fist full of arrows a bit, and maybe give some of the other powers a "bleed" DoT effect.

[MHertz]

• Give archery shots a 15% chance to apply Immobilization and 5% chance to apply a Hold.
• Apply +30% damage bonus for enemies within 10 feet.
• If there is an enemy on a line behind your target, give a 25% chance to hit the second target for 50% damage.
• +15% bonus for killing Boromir.

[Crasical]

4 hours ago, Six-Six said:

in a world where players are going around with laser guns, mutated rock-like skin, firing mind bullets or burst of radiation from their hands, what exactly are you expecting from pointy sticks and twine?

You're right. Let's nerf martial arts and Street Justice. /s

[Rudra]

I'd just like Archery to be a little more fun. It's pretty boring to me. (And the pre-aggro of Rain of Arrows is a bit disconcerting too.)

 

(Edit: I don't know how to make it more fun though. Sorry.)

Edited December 14, 2022 by Rudra

[Glacier Peak]

Manticore has Teleport Arrow!

 

I thought it was a bag of tricks type set, but I've only played Trick Arrow so I've got no idea in reality how regular Archery plays by itself.

 

I get the original post though - what even is unique about Archery?

[Akisan]

Archery main here - totally in favor of a buff to the set, as it feels a bit left behind (especially after the other Blaster nukes became crashless).

 

A few thoughts for possible ways to make the set more iconic:

• "Armor piercing" a.k.a. bonus damage to certain enemy groups.  Modern ballistic armor is designed to stop modern weapons, so it tends to do well against bullets, but doesn't do very well against arrows.  This would also nicely address the problem the set has with seemingly everything resisting it at level 50 (yay, pure Lethal!)
• Secondary Effects.  A few people mentioned slows or bleeding being appropriate.  I'd petition for a small amount of -MaxHP, as it's a unique effect (and could represent a mix of things, like arrow weight, loss of mobility, blood loss, etc.)  Either way, it could be a chance for a random effect (50% chance for any one of several debuffs, at power-dependent weightings), or implemented as a specific one (like Aimed Shot and Ranged shot always inflict a bleeding DoT)
• Critical hits, scaled against (uncapped) chance to hit.  0% crit rate at 100% to-hit, scaling up to 10% at 300% to-hit. I'd probably cap this at 20% (500% to-hit, encourages further team buffs), but it'd be fair to cap this at 10% (equal to Scrappers).  For reference, my uncapped to-hit is generally between 200 and 250% against even-con enemies (without Aim/Build-up, so 5-7.5% crit chance depending on power).  (I'd also be okay with a flat crit rate, similar to Scrappers)

 

And yeah, as stated earlier in the thread - Archery's two main "gimmicks" are the crashless nuke (which everyone has now), and 1.15x base accuracy (compared to other weapon sets' 1.05x), which is... mostly useless in end-game (it *does* affect your to-hit floor, but that doesn't come up often).  A new secondary effect would definitely help with set identity beyond "feeling medieval".  (And I'd still like to customize both the fletching on my arrows *and* the flame on Blazing Arrow, btw)

[kelika2]

just add dots and -res

fistful and snipe can be lethal/toxic with a toxic dot

snap can get -resist

aimed can get a lethal dot

animation/activation reduction on blazing arrow

 

sentinels can get extreme smashing on stunning shot

Edited December 15, 2022 by kelika2
blazing arrow

[Willdabeastalt1]

23 minutes ago, Akisan said:

Archery main here - totally in favor of a buff to the set, as it feels a bit left behind (especially after the other Blaster nukes became crashless).

 

A few thoughts for possible ways to make the set more iconic:

• "Armor piercing" a.k.a. bonus damage to certain enemy groups.  Modern ballistic armor is designed to stop modern weapons, so it tends to do well against bullets, but doesn't do very well against arrows.  This would also nicely address the problem the set has with seemingly everything resisting it at level 50 (yay, pure Lethal!)
• Secondary Effects.  A few people mentioned slows or bleeding being appropriate.  I'd petition for a small amount of -MaxHP, as it's a unique effect (and could represent a mix of things, like arrow weight, loss of mobility, blood loss, etc.)  Either way, it could be a chance for a random effect (50% chance for any one of several debuffs, at power-dependent weightings), or implemented as a specific one (like Aimed Shot and Ranged shot always inflict a bleeding DoT)
• Critical hits, scaled against (uncapped) chance to hit.  0% crit rate at 100% to-hit, scaling up to 10% at 300% to-hit. I'd probably cap this at 20% (500% to-hit, encourages further team buffs), but it'd be fair to cap this at 10% (equal to Scrappers).  For reference, my uncapped to-hit is generally between 200 and 250% against even-con enemies (without Aim/Build-up, so 5-7.5% crit chance depending on power).  (I'd also be okay with a flat crit rate, similar to Scrappers)

 

And yeah, as stated earlier in the thread - Archery's two main "gimmicks" are the crashless nuke (which everyone has now), and 1.15x base accuracy (compared to other weapon sets' 1.05x), which is... mostly useless in end-game (it *does* affect your to-hit floor, but that doesn't come up often).  A new secondary effect would definitely help with set identity beyond "feeling medieval".  (And I'd still like to customize both the fletching on my arrows *and* the flame on Blazing Arrow, btw)

 

Great ideas!  I particularly like the -MaxHP because, as you said, apart from the Incarnates it's a completely unique effect, and also fits with the cumulative effect of having a bunch of arrows sticking out of you.

I was thinking something along the lines of the Armor Piercing as well for exactly the reason you mentioned of arrows defeating many modern forms of armor.  I'm not sure what that would look like unless there's an "ignore damage resistance" feature that can be built in.

 

Another way to go would be a set of ammo swap toggles in place of the Aim ... it would honestly make more sense for arrows than Dual Pistols, especially for things like toxic since the hot explosive gases tend to sterilize bullets.  Could get rid of blazing arrow and replace with a better attack, and then include fire arrows, poison arrows and maybe razor arrows or something (bleed damage).  Poison arrows could add a general slow effect in addition to damage allowing all arrows to get some proc slotting like Dual Pistols has.

 

As someone else mentioned, the cone attack could use some serious love ... it is a really limited range/area.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

I was thinking something along the lines of the Armor Piercing as well for exactly the reason you mentioned of arrows defeating many modern forms of armor.  I'm not sure what that would look like unless there's an "ignore damage resistance" feature that can be built in.

There *is* an unresistible feature in the game. Though I'm pretty sure we won't be getting that outside of incarnate powers.

 

1 hour ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

Another way to go would be a set of ammo swap toggles in place of the Aim

That requires a new power be added to the pool, at the cost of an existing power. I'm against this.

 

1 hour ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

it would honestly make more sense for arrows than Dual Pistols, especially for things like toxic since the hot explosive gases tend to sterilize bullets. 

You can change out your magazines in the pistols, and acid doesn't care if the round gets hot. (Toxic damage in the game still.)

1 hour ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

Could get rid of blazing arrow and replace with a better attack, and then include fire arrows, poison arrows and maybe razor arrows or something (bleed damage).  Poison arrows could add a general slow effect in addition to damage allowing all arrows to get some proc slotting like Dual Pistols has.

Improving the set is fine with me. Removing and replacing powers though? That's not fine with me. The set can be improved, even using ideas from this thread, without removing powers from the set.

[Akisan]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

6 hours ago, Willdabeastalt1 said:

Could get rid of blazing arrow and replace with a better attack, and then include fire arrows, poison arrows and maybe razor arrows or something (bleed damage).  Poison arrows could add a general slow effect in addition to damage allowing all arrows to get some proc slotting like Dual Pistols has.

Improving the set is fine with me. Removing and replacing powers though? That's not fine with me. The set can be improved, even using ideas from this thread, without removing powers from the set.

 

I'd be okay with Blazing Arrow being improved/replaced.  It used to be like having a second, uninterruptible snipe in the set (it did almost as much damage as Ranged Shot, with almost as much windup), but with Fast Snipes involved, it's fallen pretty far behind for DPA.  I'll also admit that the windup on it means I almost can't use it mid-fight if there are other DPS toons on the team - more often than not, the target's defeated before it goes off.

 

Ammo swap almost seems like it'd put the set too close to DP, but would be in-theme.  After all, they do make a *bunch* of arrowheads depending on what you're hunting, and envenomed arrows have been around for a long time.  Of course, you could dip *any* of said arrowheads in that venom, so envenom would probably be a separate selector based on what kind of venom you're using ([slow/hold]/sleep/DoT/-regen, for paralytic/sophomoric/acidic/necrotic venoms).

[srmalloy]

19 hours ago, aethereal said:

At launch, I think much of Archery's draw was a non-crashing, long-distance T9.

Don't forget that the original version of Rain of Arrows also had an absurd delay between completion of the animation and when the power effect occurred, with the determination of whether any given mob took damage being made at the time the arrows landed -- which meant that it was entirely possible, even likely, that if you used Rain of Arrows in the middle of combat, unless a spawn was locked down by a tanker's taunt or a CC, the entire spawn would move out of the area of effect and the attack would be completely wasted.

[Akisan]

53 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Don't forget that the original version of Rain of Arrows also had an absurd delay between completion of the animation and when the power effect occurred, with the determination of whether any given mob took damage being made at the time the arrows landed -- which meant that it was entirely possible, even likely, that if you used Rain of Arrows in the middle of combat, unless a spawn was locked down by a tanker's taunt or a CC, the entire spawn would move out of the area of effect and the attack would be completely wasted.

 

That delay was easy enough to work around though - open with Ranged Shot, Blazing Arrow, then start RoA centered on you.  By the time RoA went off, you'd be just starting to get swarmed, so it hit nearly everything (gotta love using yourself as bait, btw).  And honestly, I'd almost prefer that set-up to how things work now - anything that survives the RoA scatters because of the AI cowardice bug.