Brute's Advantage

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That changes my math to 669%, which is above the 602% threshold to catch up to Tankers. I sit corrected. (Edit: Still assuming those 7 SoAs all take Support Hybrid for some reason. And which is still a specialized team to get as many damage buffs squeezed in as I could.)

 

You put way too much work into trying to create that specialized team.  Team with one Kinetics character.  One FS is 150-250% +Damage, depending on the archetype, and that's just FS.  Siphon Power is a team buff, too.

 

Or get a nuke.  Two players with Warburg Bio nukes can cap an entire team's damage for 5 minutes, including brutes, and with 8 teammates, that's 20 minutes of everyone being at the cap.

[Glacier Peak]

Wow this thread exploded since earlier today! Has anyone brought up Regen yet? 😀 

 

Brutes get it, but it's lower regeneration ceiling numbers than Scrappers, all I'm saying...

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

You put way too much work into trying to create that specialized team.  Team with one Kinetics character.  One FS is 150-250% +Damage, depending on the archetype, and that's just FS.  Siphon Power is a team buff, too.

 

Or get a nuke.  Two players with Warburg Bio nukes can cap an entire team's damage for 5 minutes, including brutes, and with 8 teammates, that's 20 minutes of everyone being at the cap.

I can accept the /Kinetics argument. (Kinetics has a listed buff on CoD of (2.0 * Ranged_Buff_Dmg)% Damage (All) Strength (all affected targets) for 45s. Mids shows Controllers give a 20%/40% boost, not 150-250%.) The Warburg nukes one though? That is a very niche answer.

[TheZag]

One fulcrum shift tends to hit for 5 to 10 buffs if you are in melee range (120% to 240% on a controller).  With a single target i move my controller into melee range so i get the buff for hitting the enemy and the buff that eminates from the player for 60% in a single cast.  Ill double stack fulcrum shift and siphon power for a sizable buff of 80% to 160% as buffs expire and get refreshed even against a solo enemy.  Double stack against large mobs and a single kinetics can easily damage cap the team.

 

[Take One]

The thing I find most annoying about tankers vs brutes is that tankers, the defense experts, get fewer defensive powersets to choose from.

 

[Rudra]

57 minutes ago, Take One said:

The thing I find most annoying about tankers vs brutes is that tankers, the defense experts, get fewer defensive powersets to choose from.

 

You're going to have to explain that one to me. They get access to the same power sets, except Tankers get their defensive powers earlier.

 

(Though looking through Mids, I find it 'funny' that Tankers outdamage both Brutes and Scrappers unless the Brute gets to a higher damage % (per the discussion in this thread) and the Scrapper has their ATO proc. That is Mids though.) Edit: Huh. That was Electric Melee, but it stopped being that way when I reloaded. Edit again: I had to have had something set up wrong. Please disregard this bottom paragraph.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited multiple times. Strike through added to invalidate.

[aethereal]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

You're going to have to explain that one to me. They get access to the same power sets, except Tankers get their defensive powers earlier.

 

Brutes get Energy Aura and Regeneration, neither of which is available to Tankers.

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

I can accept the /Kinetics argument. (Kinetics has a listed buff on CoD of (2.0 * Ranged_Buff_Dmg)% Damage (All) Strength (all affected targets) for 45s. Mids shows Controllers give a 20%/40% boost, not 150-250%.)

 

Target cap 10.  Not 1.  10.

 

15% (mastermind FS) * 10 = 150%

20% (controller/corruptor FS) * 10 = 200%

25% (defender FS) * 10 = 250%

 

150-250% +Damage with FS.

That's not including the buff around the Kin (another 30-50%), which is applicable if said Kin is within 20' of the melee character.

 

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

The Warburg nukes one though? That is a very niche answer.

 

Now.  It wasn't niche when hyper-inflation prevented many players from using set IOs, ATOs didn't exist, converters didn't exist, catalysts didn't exist, Winter sets didn't exist, Incarnate abilities didn't exist... or even later, when some of these things were available, but locked behind pay walls and exorbitant reward merit costs.  Back in the day, having a Bio nuke on hand wasn't niche, it was normal, because they are powerful buffs (400% Regeneration, 150% Damage) and people running around with builds using yellow SOs and franken-slotted set IOs found it very handy.  TF?  Bring nukes.  Hydra?  Bring nukes.  Kronos?  Bring nukes.  Terra Volta?  Bring nukes.

 

It's niche now because the healthy economy, removal of pay walls and drastic reduction in merit costs have given all of us a laissez-faire attitude.  We don't get nukes because we don't need them and acquiring them is "work"... but that doesn't mean using them isn't a valid tactic.  The purpose of mentioning them wasn't to sidestep a restriction or cobble together a solution, but to point out that not only does it not require any specific combination of teammates for a brute to hit his/her damage cap, it doesn't even require one support character.  Anyone can do this.  Everyone can do this.  That you don't, that I don't, doesn't mean it can't, isn't or shouldn't be done, or that doing it isn't an acceptable tactic.  It's a team buff available to everyone, and it serves as a reminder that it doesn't take seven Soldiers or Arachnos, or seven Emps, or seven Thermals, or whatever, to buff a brute's damage.  All it takes is brains.

 

But sure, call it niche.  The way I slotted the Fury proc is niche, too, but as is evident in the screenshots I posted, it's clearly the superior slotting approach.  Dismissing something that works simply because it's not en vogue is foolish and self-defeating.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Target cap 10.  Not 1.  10.

 

15% (mastermind FS) * 10 = 150%

20% (controller/corruptor FS) * 10 = 200%

25% (defender FS) * 10 = 250%

 

150-250% +Damage with FS.

That's not including the buff around the Kin (another 30-50%), which is applicable if said Kin is within 20' of the melee character.

@TheZag already explained the FS bit. Thanks though.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Now.  It wasn't niche when hyper-inflation prevented many players from using set IOs, ATOs didn't exist, converters didn't exist, catalysts didn't exist, Winter sets didn't exist, Incarnate abilities didn't exist... or even later, when some of these things were available, but locked behind pay walls and exorbitant reward merit costs.  Back in the day, having a Bio nuke on hand wasn't niche, it was normal, because they are powerful buffs (400% Regeneration, 150% Damage) and people running around with builds using yellow SOs and franken-slotted set IOs found it very handy.  TF?  Bring nukes.  Hydra?  Bring nukes.  Kronos?  Bring nukes.  Terra Volta?  Bring nukes.

I have never known people to carry and use nukes for anything you are mentioning. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it was never as prevalent as you are claiming. Even back before set IOs, ATOs, and so forth. The PvP community was much more present back then and most people I knew wouldn't even go into Warburg unless they had a full team. And getting everyone a nuke was a sufficient hassle that even with a full team, no one I knew cared to bother going for the nukes. I did Terra Volta trials regularly back on Live and never once did anyone have a nuke. Pick a TF. Same thing. No one had a nuke. Kronos Titan? We maybe sometimes had a single person with a nuke, but most times it was just good old-fashioned teamwork. So yeah, to me, your nuke answer is very niche.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

All it takes is brains.

You are getting dangerously close to being hostile/insulting.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

But sure, call it niche.  The way I slotted the Fury proc is niche, too, but as is evident in the screenshots I posted, it's clearly the superior slotting approach.  Dismissing something that works simply because it's not en vogue is foolish and self-defeating.

The way you slotted the proc is not niche, it is more effective than how many I know slot it, myself included. There is a difference. Most Brute players have the proc slotted. You just happen to be using it more effectively than most. That makes it not niche.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Dismissing something that works simply because it's not en vogue is foolish and self-defeating.

I'm not concerned with what is vogue or not. Never have been, never will be. For the purposes of this discussion, I discount anything that is not sustainable. Build Up? Great, you get 10 seconds of improved damage. If you slot it well enough, then you only have 20-35 seconds of it not doing anything before you can get another 10 seconds of use out of it. Nope, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't factor. Vengeance? You have to have a party member die to use, and the team, let alone the Brute or Tanker, is supposed to be doing their best to prevent that.  I've never seen nukes being used on anything even remotely close to a regular basis, and back on Live I did a lot of teaming. And even if you count it as not niche? Once all 8 team members have used their nukes (assuming they all have them), then it's either time to put any further missions on hold and take a group field trip back to Warburg to get another 24 scientists (less if you have the bypass option available) before going back to your missions, or you press on without. So that is not a sustainable option either.

 

I understand your point. Brutes shine when they have proper support. (Point of fact, so does every other AT. So that isn't really an advantage.) Brutes are the dollar store Tanker unless you have a team capable of pushing the Brute past the Tanker's damage cap. My thanks to the person that gave me that name, it sounds so much better than poor man's Tanker. It is still an advantage Brutes have over Tankers, which meets the criteria I set out in the OP, even if I find it disappointing. It does however require a team that can help the Brute get to that point. And if you are playing sub-level 45 if Ouro'ing, not up to end game if still leveling, or not on a team with specific abilities, that Brute won't get there.

 

Answer this honestly please: If your team had one slot left, no Tankers yet on the team, and both a Tanker and a Brute asked to join the team at the same time, which would you choose?

(If the answer isn't that you would have to just randomly pick one, then there is a problem with the Brute AT. Or if the answer is simply "Tanker" like most others would, then there is a problem with the Brute  AT.)

 

Brutes and Tankers do the same thing, just with different inherents. When CoV launched, Brutes had the offset of starting with higher damage than Tankers. Then Tankers complained and things got adjusted. So Brutes got higher damage after building up a little Fury instead. Tankers still complained so things got adjusted. Brutes have been losing ground and their identity since CoV launched. So now Brutes' advantage is they have a higher damage cap, but start out with anemic damage values as compared to "lowest damage melee AT" Tankers. Their Fury quickly pumps up their damage, but unless the Brute is paired with a partner, team, or league that can push the Brute to damage cap, the Tanker is the only choice for absolutely everyone I have met in the game.

 

Tankers were always preferred over Brutes, and that is fine. Brutes only claim was their higher damage compared to Tankers, but Tankers had the better aggro management for teams, better resists, and higher HP. All good, that is what Tankers are for after all. Brutes had aggro management capability, but it took more work. And with their lower resists and HP, they had to be a little more careful than Tankers. However, they could waffle stomp enemies faster than any Tanker could hope to and that went a long way to maintaining parity. Then with the last few updates that affected Brutes and Tankers, Brutes lost their ability to keep up with Tankers unless a /Kinetic was there to bolster everyone or the team had enough support abilities to do the same thing. Not every Defender, Controller, or Corruptor set includes a damage buff power. Not everyone wants to play a /Kinetic, or an SoA, or whatever. So you will find teams that lack the ability to push the Brute up that high. Not everyone plays just at endgame so they get access to their incarnate abilities. Not everyone takes lore pets or other incarnate powers that buff anyone's damage output even when they do play just endgame. So looking at general teams where you can't count on having access to those buffs, the Tanker stomps the Brute. (Edit: Even with every member of the team having access to Assault.) Because the Tanker has better everything. Even with your point about Brute's having higher damage caps. THAT is the issue this thread is trying to address. That unless if the situation is set up to make it possible for Brutes to get to their damage cap, Brutes are inferior to Tankers in every way.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct "only" to "unless".

[Glacier Peak]

I'll have to add my two cents about Warburg Nukes (and Shivans) - these were tantamount to required temps to have for Villain teams attempting the original LRSF back on live. Edge case, perhaps - definitely know in my experience nobody got them just to throw at other players (unless there was a big battle in Warburg or Recluse's Victory). Nowadays, Incarnate abilities fill that role.

[Rudra]

I saw Shivans on a regular basis in LRSFs. Never any nukes though.

[Meknomancer]

I don't have a problem with brutes damage, its more the constant buffing that the tanker AT gets. And the simplest fix and probably the most difficult to implement is to make more AT sets, only this time make ones that are good for the brute instead of the useless ones they currently have available.

 

Makes me wonder how difficult it would be to proliferate current At sets to other AT's. How would a brute fare with a stackable resist and an absorb.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Meknomancer

[Rudra]

You're going to have to explain how having more ATs will change how much buffing Tankers got compared to how much nerfing Brutes got.

 

I still remember how the Brutes progressed.

 

The first "fix" was put out and Brutes had their damage reduced. And the response from the devs was "We didn't figure how Fury would affect the Brute's damage compared to other ATs right. So this is to correct Brutes to fit between Scrappers and Tankers".

 

*next update that reduced the Brute's damage* "Don't worry, we're just bringing brutes more in line with their blue side contemporaries. Your fury will still get you doing more damage."

 

*next update that reduced Brute's damage* "Don't worry, with as easy as building fury is, your full fury bar will keep you going." (It now takes an 80%+ fury bar to exceed Tankers.)

 

*next update that reduced Brute's damage* "Don't worry, we didn't change your damage cap. On a team, you can still outdamage the Tankers."

 

*last update that reduced Brute's damage* "Don't worry, we upped your damage cap to compensate. Going all out still has you outdamaging the Tankers." (It just requires specific support to do so.)

 

And almost every time Brutes had their damage nerfed, Tankers had their damage buffed. It is now at the point where a maxed out fury Brute still does less damage than a Tanker. And only if you have the requisite support to get past the Tanker's damage cap to the Brute's cap does the Brute finally outperform the Tanker at anything. That is like saying Colossus is stronger than an enraged Hulk and should be unless the Hulk has suitable support to reach his cap. And that is just plain laughable. Tankers have been buffed to the point they completely rendered an entire AT superfluous. Which is what many Tanker players I knew wanted. Tankers and Brutes are so similar, that many Tanker players I knew felt that Brutes should have never been made. Never mind that AT proliferation hadn't even happened yet. "Tankers should have just been made available red side." And after AT proliferation? "Tankers are available on all sides. Brutes should get off my lawn."

 

Do I sound bitter? I probably do. Tankers and Brutes have their respective roles. Or at least, they did. Nerf Tankers. Buff Brutes. Give Brutes some other element to define them that doesn't get rid of what they have. I don't care! Pick one. Just stop stomping on Brutes! Give them back their advantage! Or at least give them an advantage that doesn't require specific powers from their teammates to enjoy. (Edit: Or doesn't require the Brute to have an infinite stockpile of red inspirations to enjoy.)

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct a comma to a period.

[Meknomancer]

I don't remember brutes ever having a specific role tbh. A little dps/tank/alpha taker jack of all melee trades. When red came in we were tanking with mm's pets, brutes not much more than a scrapper. How would more AT sets fix the buffs tanks got and the nerfs brutes got? That would have be answered by someone who understands the code better than me, i just suggest it as the simplest solution. An AT piece that drastically bumps damage on the brute or bumps aoe radius when it fires off or gives them something close to scrappers critical strikes or...or...or.....

 

I'm betting theres a lot of ideas out there that could bring the brute back to what it was simply by chucking an enhance at it.

 

And i'll repeat what i said initially:

 

I don't have a problem with brutes damage, its more the constant buffing the tanker AT gets. 

[Galaxy Brain]

Lets do some quick comparisons, using Mids as @Rudra was doing. 

 

If we compare Beheader for both Brute and Tanker we see the following for base damage:

 

Brute = 41.71

Tank = 50.19 ( ~20% better base value)

 

Lets slap some lvl 50 IO's for damage into each:

 

Brute = 83.03 

Tank = 99.91 (still ~20% better)

 

 

 

Things change real fast tho when you introduce fury:

 

83.03 (0%)  /  103.9 (25%) / 124.7 (50%) /  145.6 (75%) / 166.4 (100%)

 

At max fury, without added damage buffs, the Brute will deal about 40% more damage per hit than the Tank. At around 75% Fury, it still deals over 30% more and that figure seems rather reasonable to maintain.

 

 

 

Lets compare the same power again, but damage cap the two AT's.

 

Brute = 250.26 (~25% better) [41.71 * 6]

Tank = 200.76  [50.19 * 4]

 

At their caps, Tankers lose out on ~25% damage per hit compared to their Brute counterparts. While Brutes start off worse, it only takes about 20-25% fury to match Tanker damage with normal enhancements and from there they still maintain a raw offensive edge (AoE stuff excluded), and at the highest end they still out damage Tankers assuming both are capped.

 

Speaking of ease to get to said caps, lets look at the enhancement + damage bonus values between the two powers.

 

Brute = 99.08% from Enhancement + ~202.17% from max fury = 301.25% / 600%, a little over halfway there with no outside bonuses!

Tank = 99.08% from Enhancement = 99.08% / 400%, a little under a quarter of the cap.

 

On paper, the Brutes should not only be dealing more damage on average, but it's actually easier to get them to their caps than Tankers.

 

 

On the defense side, they have the same defensive caps but there is a difference in their Res/Def values and their HP/Max HP. We can compare Hardened Carapace for this:

 

Brute = 29.71% (18.75%) 

Tank = 39.62% (25%)  about ~33% better

 

 

Comparing HP stats:

 

Brute = 1499 / 3212.69

Tank = 1874 / 3534 (~25% to 10% better at cap)

 

Tanks edge out in initial defenses, but when you have everything capped out the HP difference either mirrors the offense difference or is even smaller.

 

 

 

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Lets do some quick comparisons, using Mids as @Rudra was doing. 

 

If we compare Beheader for both Brute and Tanker we see the following for base damage:

 

Brute = 41.71

Tank = 50.19 ( ~20% better base value)

 

Lets slap some lvl 50 IO's for damage into each:

 

Brute = 83.03 

Tank = 99.91 (still ~20% better)

 

 

 

Things change real fast tho when you introduce fury:

 

83.03 (0%)  /  103.9 (25%) / 124.7 (50%) /  145.6 (75%) / 166.4 (100%)

 

At max fury, without added damage buffs, the Brute will deal about 40% more damage per hit than the Tank. At around 75% Fury, it still deals over 30% more and that figure seems rather reasonable to maintain.

 

 

 

Lets compare the same power again, but damage cap the two AT's.

 

Brute = 250.26 (~25% better) [41.71 * 6]

Tank = 200.76  [50.19 * 4]

 

At their caps, Tankers lose out on ~25% damage per hit compared to their Brute counterparts. While Brutes start off worse, it only takes about 20-25% fury to match Tanker damage with normal enhancements and from there they still maintain a raw offensive edge (AoE stuff excluded), and at the highest end they still out damage Tankers assuming both are capped.

 

Speaking of ease to get to said caps, lets look at the enhancement + damage bonus values between the two powers.

 

Brute = 99.08% from Enhancement + ~202.17% from max fury = 301.25% / 600%, a little over halfway there with no outside bonuses!

Tank = 99.08% from Enhancement = 99.08% / 400%, a little under a quarter of the cap.

 

On paper, the Brutes should not only be dealing more damage on average, but it's actually easier to get them to their caps than Tankers.

 

 

On the defense side, they have the same defensive caps but there is a difference in their Res/Def values and their HP/Max HP. We can compare Hardened Carapace for this:

 

Brute = 29.71% (18.75%) 

Tank = 39.62% (25%)  about ~33% better

 

 

Comparing HP stats:

 

Brute = 1499 / 3212.69

Tank = 1874 / 3534 (~25% to 10% better at cap)

 

Tanks edge out in initial defenses, but when you have everything capped out the HP difference either mirrors the offense difference or is even smaller.

 

 

 

Then the two of us did something different in Mids and I need to revisit it to find out what. I had my Electric Melee Brute's Fury maxxed in Mids and was still 20 points under the Tanker just for Charged Brawl as an example.

 

Edit: Using your post as reference, it is apparent I had an error. I'll go back and look at it again to find out what.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

Okay, went back and threw a Brute version of the Elec/Elec Tanker with the exact same enhancements together again and compared them to each other. I don't know what I did. I'm not duplicating the problem I saw that started this thread. I apologize.

 

I'm going to sit down and eat my crow in peace. Can I get a mod to lock this thread? Not going to hide it behind the Hide option.

 

Edit: For reference:

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

So yeah, to me, your nuke answer is very niche.

 

That still doesn't mean it's invalid.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You are getting dangerously close to being hostile/insulting.

 

It was an impersonal comment which was no more an attack than asking a server in a restaurant if he/she can break a $20 constitutes an inquiry into his/her personal finances.  You're overly sensitive.

 

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm not concerned with what is vogue or not. Never have been, never will be. For the purposes of this discussion, I discount anything that is not sustainable. Build Up? Great, you get 10 seconds of improved damage. If you slot it well enough, then you only have 20-35 seconds of it not doing anything before you can get another 10 seconds of use out of it. Nope, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't factor. Vengeance? You have to have a party member die to use, and the team, let alone the Brute or Tanker, is supposed to be doing their best to prevent that.  I've never seen nukes being used on anything even remotely close to a regular basis, and back on Live I did a lot of teaming. And even if you count it as not niche? Once all 8 team members have used their nukes (assuming they all have them), then it's either time to put any further missions on hold and take a group field trip back to Warburg to get another 24 scientists (less if you have the bypass option available) before going back to your missions, or you press on without. So that is not a sustainable option either.

 

I finally understand why you focused on Soldiers of Arachnos now.  I thought it was a really odd choice, since a single Kin can do more, but you showed your hand this round.  14x Assault, always on, always active.  You're discounting everything in the game that doesn't meet that stricture, which is, effectively everything except Assault and SoA Assault.  Build Up, nukes, Fortitude, FS, Siphon Power, teammates, inspirations, all of the click +Damage buffs in the entire game, it's all meaningless to you because it's not 100% permanent, 0.0 seconds down time, absolutely assured +Damage without active input.

 

You want brutes to be balanced in a vacuum in which no click buffs exist, no teammates exist, nothing but the brute and his/her Fury bar.  The fact that all of these other buffs do exist, that they would put brutes so far over the top that it would be insane, is irrelevant.

 

I guarantee that no developer, now or in the future, will consider that.  Ever.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And if you are playing sub-level 45 if Ouro'ing, not up to end game if still leveling, or not on a team with specific abilities, that Brute won't get there.

 

Now you're saying that brutes need Incarnate buffs in order to hit their Damage cap?

If you move that goal post any further, you'll need another planet to stand it up on.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Answer this honestly please: If your team had one slot left, no Tankers yet on the team, and both a Tanker and a Brute asked to join the team at the same time, which would you choose?

 

Whichever /tell came first.  That's my honest answer, and it's not an evasion.

 

This isn't a trinity game.  No-one needs a tanker or a brute.  Neither tankers nor brutes are essential to the success of any team.  I proved that in I5 when I tanked AVs and GMs, successfully, with a defender, with no Defense, no Resistance and no status protection.  Supergroups like Repeat Offenders, Green Machine, Fruit Salad, Pinball Wizards ran things on every one of the original servers every night, without a single tank or brute, and they wrecked shit.

 

Of equal importance, eight players all going banana balls with attacks so grossly overshadows any difference between tanker and brute damage that it's meaningless.  It's not even a notable difference in comparison to the overall output of the entire team.  What, 0.7%?  Maybe 1%?  I'm supposed to pull out a calculator and spreadsheet and base a decision on that, when we'll all be hammering things so hard and fast that we need a better word than "overkill" to describe it?  As long as the player is contributing, I'm not going to base any decision on a variable so small in the big picture that it takes a goddamn microscope to find it.

 

I don't care what other people play or bring to a team, because I know the mechanics and I know it always works out, as long as people are having fun.

[Rudra]

A single /Kinetic can also sustain FS's buffs. Fulcrum Shift has a base recharge of 60 seconds and a duration of 45 seconds. It doesn't take much in the way of recharge enhancement, even if just global, to get that recharge to under 45 seconds. I didn't use /Kinetics for my comparison because I did not think of them.

 

Edit: Besides, @Galaxy Brain blew a planet-sized hole in my position. I'm not just taking on water, I've been wiped out.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra

[golstat2003]

44 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A single /Kinetic can also sustain FS's buffs. Fulcrum Shift has a base recharge of 60 seconds and a duration of 45 seconds. It doesn't take much in the way of recharge enhancement, even if just global, to get that recharge to under 45 seconds. I didn't use /Kinetics for my comparison because I did not think of them.

 

Edit: Besides, @Galaxy Brain blew a planet-sized hole in my position. I'm not just taking on water, I've been wiped out.

Interesting as I think Kinetics is waaaay more popular than SOAs for the general in game pop. If I have an option to take a Kin over any SOA, I’m bringing along the Kin. Every time.

[Rudra]

I have an SoA. Two of them actually. I play them from time to time when I don't feel like running one of my MMs, Corruptors, or Brutes. I haven't seen a /Kinetic in a long while even when I occasionally team, and I haven't played one in even longer. So I went with what came to mind. Still had to look up the bonuses they would give.

[TheZag]

MIDS can do fun(ky) things sometimes.  One of my bio armor builds doesnt update resistances when choosing between the different adaptations unless i pull an enhancement and place it again.  Im sure there are other shenanigans in there and you stumbled onto one of them.

 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I have an SoA. Two of them actually. I play them from time to time when I don't feel like running one of my MMs, Corruptors, or Brutes. I haven't seen a /Kinetic in a long while even when I occasionally team, and I haven't played one in even longer. So I went with what came to mind. Still had to look up the bonuses they would give.

I've only got a Widow, but I'm pretty sure it's 30% damage boost with x2 Assualt running. 

 

Edit: So like 210% damage boost if x7 VEATs running x2 Assault. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[JasperStone]

This thread has no value until @Snarky chimes in.

[Rudra]

This thread is dead. The OP has been shown to be false. I'm just waiting for it to be locked.